Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Welcome back to Beyond the Sessions segment of the Securely Attached podcast. Dr. Emily Upshur is here to answer your listener questions. Hello, Dr. Emily. How are you?

Dr. Emily (00:54):

Hi guys. Good to be here.

Dr. Sarah (00:58):

All right, you ready for our question?

Dr. Emily (01:00):

Let’s do it.

Dr. Sarah (01:01):

Okay. So this parent writes in, Hello Dr. Bren. She jumps right into it. The F word slipped out of me once or twice, and now my kids use it all the time, especially since they know it drives me crazy. I tried ignoring it, telling them to replace it with good words, even threaten to wash their mouth out with soap and actually getting some soap in there, which I know is totally bad, but I’m at my wit’s end. How do I stop them? My kids are four and almost seven-year-old boys. Sometimes the 7-year-old tells the 4-year-old to say the bad word just for fun. It’s not only the F word. The 7-year-old learned what the middle finger means at school and now will flash it every now and then and laugh. What do I do?

Dr. Emily (01:46):

(Laughs) I’m sorry.

Dr. Sarah (01:47):

I know.

Dr. Emily (01:47):

I love it so much.

Dr. Sarah (01:48):

I know. I’m so excited about this question because, oh my God, if only people could listen to the kinds of things that come out of my children’s mouth. I feel very, very related to right now.

Dr. Emily (02:01):

I think I’ll preface this with I have a very high tolerance for swearing as a human, and so I think that’s a really important quality. I think in point of this, right, some people have a very low tolerance for swearing, so it’s going to feel really different. But I have a mature thought.

Dr. Sarah (02:17):

Which I think we should spend some time unpacking a little bit too. I do think the story we bring to this is informed by the stories we were told about this, right? So if we were completely just slammed for swearing and if we were afraid of what people were going to do if we did it, we are going to hold a very different story in our bodies because his mom is saying they know it drives me crazy, which is such a catch 22 because her sensitivity to it is going to amplify the urgency around her response to it, which can actually be really reinforcing, unfortunately, for this.

Dr. Emily (03:01):

Directly correlate to them doing it more is essentially.

Dr. Sarah (03:04):

Right, but it’s like I almost feel like before she can not be driven crazy by it. It’s very easy to say someone, well, just don’t let it bother you. But if it bothers you, you have to start there. You have to really have to start with what is it about these words and what my interpretation of what my children saying them in the moment is activating inside of me, and can I look at that from a different angle? Can I unpack that a little bit?

Dr. Emily (03:33):

Or what am I afraid of? Because while I have a high tolerance for swearing, I do not have a high tolerance for not knowing when it’s not okay to swear. So I think that the most important thing, and not just about swearing about any undesirable, undesirable behavior is there’s a time and a place in a setting and you need to be able to read the room, and that’s hard in a 4-year-old. But those are still values I want to start to instill in young children, which is how do I attune to my environment? How do I know who’s listening, what’s appropriate, what setting it’s appropriate in, what it’s not appropriate in? And I think that that’s developmentally appropriate to this person’s point. There’s nothing more typical than a 7-year-old learning about the middle finger at school that’s spot on age appropriate. So I think that to your point, what does it mean to you? But what are you afraid of? Are you afraid they’re saying it at home? Are you afraid they’re going to say it at school? Are you are afraid they’re going to say it to your parents, the grandparents?

Dr. Sarah (04:35):

Perhaps you’re afraid that people will judge you if they hear your child say those words or will yell at your kids or will in some way. There’s also, I think this other piece of, will my parenting be judged?

Dr. Emily (04:50):

Yeah. Am I a bad parent? Yeah. So I think that that’s absolutely right. I think you have to start with what your feelings are about all of these things we’ve just mentioned, right? And where you land and how can you put it into a little bit of perspective what your social, cultural and relevant ecospheres are with that? There’s definitely a big element of that that I want to be respectful of. So I think it’s really important for you to, we joke, but I think it’s really important for you to spend some time thinking about what does it feel like for you? What is the narrative and the story you have around it? And then we can sort of move to how does that work into these children that are these extensions of yourself, of which you have no control over. It’s so hard limited control over, I should say.

Dr. Sarah (05:43):

Which is because this mom, she’s asking a very specific question, which is how do I get them to stop?

Dr. Emily (05:49):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (05:50):

And I think that sounds like such a simple question, but the answer is not simple and it’s multilayered. So I want to just rewind the tape before we get to that piece because really how you get them to stop starts before they even say the word in the moment. Because if your child drops an and you have a really strong reaction, and the next time, now fast forward to another moment, your kid drops an F-bomb, you know what their nervous system, their whole body is going to do is it’s going to have this multi-pronged flash of many different things. One is, oh God, is she going to have a big reaction? So they’re already going to be sort of a little vulnerable to dysregulation just from anxiety of like, is that shoe going to drop? What’s her response going to be? Which can dysregulate them more and actually completely undo their inhibition even more. Also, they might be usually a kid is going to drop that on some level when they’re already dysregulated. Maybe they’re excited and goofing around and it’s just like, whoops, slips out. Maybe they’re really mad and it’s coming out that way. So I think we also have to look at this from a regulation lens. Is your kid checking and testing your boundaries?

(07:27):

Is your kid just totally in the throes of a complete meltdown and this is what’s coming out of their mouth like lava is your kid super excited and Wrigley and goofy and it’s coming out like that? Those are all things that you got to check in on first to know how to respond. Because if my kid is dropping the F-bomb in a ragey tantrum, which has definitely happened, where they’re like, F you, I hate this. This is so effing silly, blah, blah, blah, blah, that’s lava. And I don’t really in that moment, I’m not dissecting lava. We’re focused on damage control or we’re focused on damage control and reducing fallout and just keeping everybody safe and words in that moment are dangerous. If they’re telling their sibling that they’re a little effer, I’m going to stop that and I’m going to try to prevent them from doing verbal harm to a sibling, but I’m still, this is lava. I’m not dissecting lava.

(08:29):

If my kid is playing around with these words to just see what is going to happen at social experimenting, then I’m going to have a different response. But it also is, I encourage you, if you know you’re vulnerable to getting triggered by these words, I encourage you to play it neutral. So you could take that variable out and be like, Hmm, I wonder if what you’re trying to say is this, or Huh, that word isn’t allowed in our house. Is there another word you could say, or this is another word you could say, but you could set a boundary without having a really intense reaction to try to see if that’s enough to contain them. There’s lots of other thoughts I have, but I’m curious what you think.

Dr. Emily (09:11):

I mean, I think you’re right. There’s so much is really important based on the situation with which it’s coming out from. I think if it’s the sort of, I’m playing around with this question. My gut is these kids are having a little fun provoking mom a little.

Dr. Sarah (09:28):

Yeah. She literally says, the seven-year-olds tell the 4-year-old to say the bad word just for fun. It’s like, this feels like a icky little game that’s getting…

Dr. Emily (09:36):

It also feels a little bit appropriate child development. To me, this feels kind of like how kids learn is through play and they are playing with these words and they’re playing with the feelings and they’re playing with you. You know.

Dr. Sarah (09:50):

Yeah. They’re playing with boundaries. They’re playing with testing to see where the cracks are going to come.

Dr. Emily (09:54):

And also reactivity, they’re playing with your remote. They’re trying to see what things evoke what and other pushing the buttons and seeing. And so I think exactly to your point in that case, I think a lot, I’ve done a lot of nonverbal interact cues sort of doing a look at my kids like, Hey, you guys know, I don’t even have to say.

Dr. Sarah (10:15):

You guys can’t see the look Emily’s giving, but I know you all know that. Look, it’s the look. It’s the look, the look, capital T, capital L, The Look.

Dr. Emily (10:26):

They know or something that I feel like Rebecca says this a lot too, which I use a lot as well, which is like, try again. I love that. What was that? Or sometimes I’ll totally feign. I’m like, I did not hear you correctly. What is that? What did you say? I’m not sure I heard you right. I couldn’t have heard you right. Try that again, right? Yes. And so I think being a little playful and having, not being reactive in, I’m hearing from this parent that the kids are being playful about it and they’re toying with it, and so I’m going to be match them back a little.

(11:03):

I’m going to be attuned and I’m going to match them back with a little bit of playfulness, a little bit of levity, but with a boundary. I’m not going to come in with a hammer on that because that’s not what they’re giving me, and I’m not needing to give that back right now if they do something like the first thing you said, yell at a sibling or something. At the same time, I think you’re right. I think there is a little bit of LA and impulsivity and you have to potentially attune to the situation, but I might also meet that with, I think we need to separate for a minute. I’m not going to meet that with playfulness, right? I’m going to meet that with, I’m going to match what you’re doing with a boundary that feels appropriate and well matched to the situation.

Dr. Sarah (11:51):

And protective of relationships with people. I think that’s really important to me. If my kid is doing something that I know is lava and I can withstand it, if they’re swearing at me in the throes of a rage fit and I just know I can withstand that, I’m not going to be hurt by that. I don’t have to teach in that moment. I’m not saying I don’t teach about language and how words can hurt and what’s appropriate and not appropriate. I definitely will close that loop. But way later when they’re back to themselves, when they’re regulated again and they’ve come back online and we’re in a calm connected moment, in a different setting, in a different space, then I’ll have a conversation about appropriate use of language or what can you do when you’re that mad that isn’t destructive? But in that moment, if I can withstand the words that is inside of the lava, I don’t need to protect any one or any relationship from my child’s lava in that moment.

(12:57):

I’m going to leave that be, I’m going to focus on what I need to deal with right there. But if another person who can’t withstand, if my one child is saying really hurtful words to my other child and I know that that could damage, that could be hurtful to their relationship or to that other child, I will protect the relationship. I’ll protect both my kid that’s swearing and my kid who’s receiving it from that hurt. And to your point then, but I’m not doing it to put the kibosh on the kid that’s swearing. I’m doing it because I am the most regulated grownup in the space right now, and I am the container and I’m the protector because my kid can’t inhibit the urge to say some word that’s his lava in that moment. And so I’m going to do it for them.

Dr. Emily (13:52):

Or help them express it in a different way, or you’re going to sort of be a little bit of that mouthpiece and sort of decompress that with them. And I think something you said that which is really important, which we hadn’t specifically talked about, which is I think if this mom is only trying to inhibit this swearing in the moments that it’s happening, that’s really tricky. So we could coin strike when the iron is cold. It’s like my favorite statement that I say all the time, but it’s so important that in a quiet, calm, connected moment that’s completely outside of any of these moments, you have a little, it doesn’t have to be punitive or scary, or it could just be like, Hey, I noticed that there’s been a lot of playing with words, in some words that, or swear words or however you talk about them in your family. And I want to talk to you about the different ways that that can be received, the different settings, whatever I hesitate to give only because developmentally it’s completely different at different times. But I do think that having that calm, connected iron is cold conversation that you can refer back to in the heat of moments is a really important piece of that.

Dr. Sarah (15:06):

I agree. And even with both of these kids, so if you have the 7-year-old who’s sort of influencing the four-year-old, you can talk to both kids in these cold moments. I would talk to the four-year-old alone and be like, Hey, your big brother keeps telling you to say this word or telling you to stick this finger up. Do you know what that word means? Do you know what that, do you know what that finger gesture means? And again, for a 4-year-old, a developmentally appropriate way to explain that could be when you put your finger up like that, it’s a way of telling somebody something hurtful. It’s a way of showing a hurtful kind of message without words, and you don’t need to get into all the little nutty gritty of what the words mean. You could just say there are some words that can be really hurtful to some people or that some people could be really upset by. And so I want you to know that just because your brother tells you to say this word, that’s not a word that you have to say. And if he tells you to say it, you can say, mommy said, I can’t say that word, or I don’t want to say that word or No thanks and walk away. You can give your younger kids some tools for disengaging.

Dr. Emily (16:33):

I mean, I think that’s a really important point because obviously I have three children and sometimes the younger ones will be like, but so-and-so said it. And I think that’s a really not in a, I don’t want to in a, well, I can because they can. And I think that’s a really, again, I’m a really big advocate of saying, but you’re different people and it’s also you have a little bit better control sometimes over your emotions and your language than your brother. And so it is different, and I think that that is really important too, to know each of your children, they don’t always have to have the same expectations and rules, and you can talk to them a little bit different and specifically to what things mean to them. And there are sometimes different expectations based on each of your children and their developmental stages about the boundaries and rules and hopes and aspirations for them. And I think it’s okay to be transparent with them about that.

Dr. Sarah (17:32):

And also I feel like a 7-year-old who’s playing around with these words because it is developmentally appropriate for him to hear them at school and be kind of curious and experimenting that 7-year-old probably also to some degree has a sense of context that 7-year-old probably is understanding. These kids say this on the bus, but we don’t say it when we’re sitting at our desk in the classroom. A four year old’s not going to know that. And so that’s also where I think the older siblings giving these words to their four-year-old sibling requires a little bit of course correction on the part of the parent later on. Again, not in the moment, but when you’ve got your 4-year-old and you’re snuggling and you’re doing and you can start talking, just so you know, those are words that if you were to say them at school, you could get in a lot of trouble.

(18:21):

Someone could be very upset about that. I want you to understand that there is a context. The older kid might just inherently know that because that’s where they’re getting, they’re at that level already, but if a younger child who’s getting exposed to that through their older sibling, they’re not going to have that knowledge yet. So you want to be explicit. This is why we don’t say this. Or you can say these words, you can say them in the bathroom with the door closed. You can tell ’em to your stuffy, but you can’t tell them to a person. You can say In my house, in our house, I mean in our house, we’re like sailors. And so because my husband and I, both stuff just falls out of our mouth. Sometimes our kids at a really young age, they would repeat it, but it was so interesting. I was always looking at what’s the context in which these words are getting repeated? I remember, oh God, I think my daughter was like two years old and we were putting the garbage in, the garbage hin in the garage and we dropped it and it spilled all over the floor. And she goes, oh, s. And I was like, she said the whole work, but for podcasting purposes.

Dr. Emily (19:35):

Sugar, honey, iced tea.

Dr. Sarah (19:35):

You can imagine it was one, it was the cutest thing I had ever seen in my life. Two, I was secretly super proud of her because contextually she was using it inappropriately. It was an exclamatory word, and that is how it’s typically used in my family. We don’t swear at each other. We don’t call each other swear words. We don’t use those words to hurt each other, but we do exclaim with emphasis quite a bit in our home, and I don’t even notice half the time when I’m doing it. And so also that nuance is really important and I do want my kids to understand a couple things there. One is linguistically what the context is. What’s the difference between using those words to emphasize something versus to hurt someone and that one is okay and one is not okay in our home. And the other thing is context of location in our home it is okay to say those words. You might have different rules in your home, in which case help them understand what the rules are in your home. And also I do find it is helpful to give them somewhere where they can play with these words. It’s like if you tell a kid don’t scratch an itch, they’re going to be very itchy. All of a sudden you say, if you want to play around with these words, you can do that in your bedroom. You can do that in the bathroom.

(20:57):

You can say them to your stuffies. You cannot say them to people and you cannot say them in the family room or in the kitchen or outside of your room, whatever. You can do them in private in our house, just you can do them in our house. But you have to understand that you can’t say those things at school because it’s important. You can’t just tell them, can’t you have to say why you can’t say those words at school because somebody might be really offended by that or somebody might get mad at you or hurt by that and you could get in trouble, whatever. I just give them some context so that they can anchor that in a story that makes sense to them. I don’t know. Do you guys swear in your home? How do you handle it?

Dr. Emily (21:36):

Please. I mean, we’re sailor-esque as well. I’ll say though, it’s funny. I think birth order is in my house. Birth order was extremely impactful. I’ll never forget with my oldest, we were walking down the street and somebody dropped an F-bomb or something and he goes, mommy, don’t worry. I will never say that word. And I was like, I never will forget it. I was like, you heard that he’s a very attuned kid, and B, he was like four. I didn’t know that he knew the whole context, right? Meanwhile, fast forward, there’s a lot more loosey goosey because the trickle down of older children learning and trickling it down and just also the type of children you have. I have one very impulsive child, so those things are going to slip out a lot more frequently. He has a lot less ability to put the liquid back in the bottle, but at the same time, I mean honestly, I think a really important point that you made Sarah, which is if it’s happening out of anger or upset, I ignore that for the content of what’s going on, the words are really not important to me.

(22:56):

I’m really talking to the affect. Do I want to later dissuade using some of that language? Yes, sure. But I do think that most of the time in an exclamatory way, not in a hurtful or directed at somebody way, I have a high tolerance. I don’t know, and there is some sort of research that there’s higher intelligence than people that swear, by the way. So I do think there is something that’s really gratifying and we talk, this is a pretty nuanced concept, but that level of letting something out in a slightly aggressive way, that’s a common tongue that a lot of people know. There is a sort of gratification of letting that out, and I think we all know that.

Dr. Sarah (23:39):

There is a reason why it is such a universal thing in every swearing is a thing. Why is it a thing? Because it does something for us. It releases something.

Dr. Emily (23:54):

I do think that the level, the feeling and the release and the expression, it does have a gratifying feeling, and so I think that part of that, I don’t want to take that away from them.

Dr. Sarah (24:07):

But you can substitute it I think. So understanding what is the function of that release? Can we replace it with something else that meets that same kind of level of impact? Can we give them some words that are not unacceptable that they can use? Instead, can we give them a physical outlet? Can they go do something instead? Try to get under the function of it as well, I think is helpful.

Dr. Emily (24:35):

Yeah, I mean, I think for this mom, one of the thing I always say to parents, and that’s something I teach a lot, is don’t just tell kids what they can’t do. Tell them what they can do. So there’s a lot of room for can you try again or use a different word or can you go yell in your pillow? Or what are the things that are socially acceptable in within your home? I think that’s really important.

Dr. Sarah (24:58):

Also, as we were talking, I looked up this article that I think is worth just mentioning because here’s the thing that I want to speak, because mom said she’s at her wits end and she’s really, really overwhelmed by this, and I get that. I do not want you to feel at all like you’re crazy for caring about this. And again, going back to that earlier thing, we were talking about the beginning of the episode about understanding what your story is about it. A lot of times it’s about this, it’s rooted in a fear. People are going to judge my parenting or it’s a sign that my kid is inappropriate or poorly behaved, or maybe it’s even more primitive. It’s a part of you that thinks, oh gosh, we’re going to get in trouble if you do this inner child that used to get in trouble from a parent might be also showing up. But to speak to that piece, I just want to give this mom a few pieces of information that I pulled from the internet but are rooted in research.

Dr. Emily (25:59):

I did always believe this, so I’m with you on this. This is the story I’m telling myself all the time.

Dr. Sarah (26:06):

Totally. But so here’s some research. A 2015 study showed that people who swore tended to be more had more verbal fluency, and so that might actually be something that is a sign of verbal intelligence. It also, there’s been a study that suggests it might be a sign of honesty. In 2017, there was three studies published that found that people who cursed lied less in interpersonal relationships and had higher levels of integrity overall because, and the idea is perhaps when they’re, there’s less of a filter, less of a, there’s just more authenticity in the way that they show up. They wear their feelings right on their sleeves. Another study, or actually a couple studies have shown that profanity improves pain tolerance and that there’s something that can actually help your nervous system and your body kind of regulate because it’s a release when you’re triggered by an emotional response, that swearing can kind of reduce it then.

Dr. Emily (27:20):

So basically we are right, all of these are supporting.

Dr. Sarah (27:24):

But also it can be a sign of creativity and it can reduce our likelihood of actually being physically aggressive.

Dr. Emily (27:34):

Well, I think that’s very true, right? It’s that release and it’s like it is more socially appropriate than physically touching somebody. So I think those are all.

Dr. Sarah (27:44):

So all that to say, these might be some ways to reframe the story you’re telling yourself. I also think in general, and we’ve had other episodes about this too, I think where it’s like the bigger reaction you have, the more they need to start to play with it more so just coming in more neutral teaching outside the heat of the moment, really helping them understand context, how to use the language in a way that is and is not safe, and helping your kids understand the boundaries that are age appropriate for them. I hope this helps keep sending in your questions and we’ll talk soon.

Dr. Emily (28:18):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (28:18):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.