436. How to use music to strengthen your child’s attachment, reduce stress, and create more moments of connection with Vered Benhorin

Vered Benhorin (00:00):

What I’ve learned from all the years of working with parents and babies, the job isn’t to stop your baby from crying, tantruming in that moment. That’s not your job. Your job is just to be there. And can music also help you by saying, “Okay, that’s right. That’s right. I’m right here.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:24):

Some of the most meaningful moments in your relationship with your child aren’t the big ones. They’re the ordinary moments that you might otherwise rush through. Secure attachment is built over time through small, everyday experiences of connection. Hi, welcome to Securely Attached. I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. And in this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights so you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. And I am so happy to welcome music therapist, psychotherapist, author, and Baby in Rune founder and dear friend, Vered, back to the show.

(01:17):

Vered has spent decades helping parents to use music to foster connection, regulation, and joy with their children. Her new album, Adorable You is out now on Spotify, iTunes, and Amazon. In our conversation, we explore why music is so much more than entertainment. It can be a powerful tool for helping parents slow down, become more present, and create moments of connection that children carry with them long after the song is over. We talk about why you don’t need to be perfectly present all day long to build a secure relationship with your child, how ordinary routines can become opportunities for deep, deep connection, and why following your child’s lead can transform the way both of you experience the world. Whether you’re parenting a newborn, a toddler, or a teenager, this episode is a beautiful reminder that the moments your child will remember most often aren’t the extraordinary ones. They are the ordinary moments when they felt seen, delighted in, and deeply connected to you.

(02:19):

Hello, Vered. It’s so, so good to see you again. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Vered Benhorin (02:32):

I’m so excited because we haven’t spoken in so long. I haven’t seen you in so long. So I feel like I’m getting to see an old friend.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:39):

I know. I know. Congratulations on this exciting album. My kids are so. They’re so excited. They think you’re a rock star, that you are a rock star. They’re like, “When can we go back to a Varied class?” And I was like, because we did that virtual class during COVID with my kids. I know. They’re going to be so pumped that there’s new music to listen to.

Vered Benhorin (03:05):

Yeah. COVID actually brought some beautiful things. I was looking back at videos during COVID and I saw you and your kids and I was like, “God, there was something beautiful about that time.” Obviously also very challenging. But it was nice because it brought those virtual classes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:23):

It did. And I think it brought it at a time. There’s a million virtual classes now, but they don’t have that magic. I think that some do for sure. But I think it’s harder to get that magic. I think there was this beautiful just, it had to be in that moment. It was because of that moment where people were so. They were in a state of crisis for many people, but also just disorientation. And so to have that option to come together in that space when there wasn’t a lot of options to be together at all, it made it, I don’t know. It was like something magical happened in that period of time. There was some really cool things that, to your point, terrible, very challenging. Some beautiful things came out of it. All of these incredible people with incredible skills would come and create content for children, but they would never have taken the time out of their day to do that.

Vered Benhorin (04:25):

Yeah. Yeah. And I felt a real responsibility to try to bring through the screen some joy into what’s happening in your day when you’ve got your kids home all the time and you’re trying to work and all this stuff. I felt like, God, what can I do to make it happier?

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:47):

Yes. Yes. And I think that’s really, I know that’s what we’re going to talk about today too, because I think that that really is the essence of what you. I know it’s the essence of what you do. And when you know your book, what do I do with my baby all day? And the idea of bubble moments, which we’ll talk all about, but that is so you. But I also think it’s music, which we cannot disentangle Vered for music, but music is this. The function of music is even when something is emotional, sad, difficult, challenging, a lot of music stems from that. But it’s a joyful thing. It’s a positive thing. It’s something about creation and connection and being alive that music I think gives.

Vered Benhorin (05:41):

Yeah. And gets you out of intellectualizing or out of this kind of thinking brain and into feeling. It’s almost impossible to listen to music and not be in your feeling place, whether it’s sad or nostalgic or joyful and happy and active. But it gets you immediately into this feeling space. And I think that’s why it’s such a good conduit for the goal that I have in all of my work, really.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:10):

Yeah. Which is to help families find joy, delight, bubble moments.

Vered Benhorin (06:16):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:17):

You talked a little bit about, because first of all, for any of you listening, Verid, this is her third time on this show. I will link both of the episodes that we’ve done together. I think I’ve cried in both of them. So definitely go listen to them. But they’re really useful episodes to listen to at any stage of your parenting journey, for sure. But the last episode, you came out to talk about the book you would come out with and you talk about bubble moments. But for people who aren’t familiar with that term yet, can you talk a little bit about what that means and how that informs this album, your work at large?

Vered Benhorin (06:57):

Yeah. So I always think about this professor that I had when I was studying clinical psychology. She put on the board this. She drew a picture of a mother smiley face and a baby smiley face and this circle around them. And she said, “In the first year, the mother and the baby are in a blissful bubble.” And I had a seven month old at home at that time. And I rolled my eyes and I was like, “Are you kidding me, lady? I am not in a blissful bubble. Even as I’m sitting in class, I’ve got milk stained shirts. I have not slept for months. It pains me to feed. I’m constantly obsessed with how to do this best. I wasn’t feeling blissful.” I was just thinking, has she actually had a baby? Years later, after working with parents and babies for many years, I realized that that bubble she was talking about, the blissful bubble, it’s not a constant.

(08:02):

It’s impossible to have that constant. We can’t possibly feel blissful all the time or feel present all the time with our baby. But what I realized, we can have moments of that. We can have these moments of connection. And that’s why I called it bubble moments. And I also realized that my whole work until then as a music therapist, as a psychotherapist, as a mom, had been to help parents and babies have these very connected and joyful moments. They’re not always joyful, but they’re always connected. So maybe sometimes they’re serious, but they’re really present. They’re mindful. It’s these moments when parents feel like I am so fully connected to my baby. And the reason this is important is A, because it develops their attachment, but B, because it lets you off the hook for all the times you don’t have these moments, which is much of the day.

(08:53):

But if you feel like you’ve had a good few bubble moments a day, then you’re going to sleep thinking about that and not thinking about like, “Oh God, I was with my baby, but I was barely actually with my baby.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (09:05):

And I think so important, because I’m thinking of the parent laying down at the end of the day, going over all the non-bubble moments and feeling crappy, is it’s not just that you only have to have a few bubble moments a day to build the connection and to have this, what we would probably say, like the building blocks of this secure relationship that can get developed through these. You don’t need a bubble year to have a secure attachment with your kid by year one. You do need bubble moments. But more importantly, or I guess I would say as importantly, you have to log them for you to know that you have them. They’re happening for sure, whether we track them and log them or not. And the difference between the mom that goes to bed worrying about all the things that weren’t feeling like bubble moments and the mom who falls asleep when her head hits the pillow is the hope, I think, probably at least in part, the mom that knows, oh, that was a bubble moment and I had it and it felt good. And I get to carry that feeling with me. It’s like our awareness is just as important as the doing.

Vered Benhorin (10:22):

Yeah. I think that’s a really good point. But while you were saying that, I was thinking, does the awareness come when you’re actually fully in it? Because you’re right, that there are moments all through the day when parents attune to their babies and they’re changing the diaper and suddenly they’re looking at their baby and they realize, oh my God, I love this baby so much. That is a bubble moment. But then they’re also thinking about a million other things. And I think the bubble moment concept is, okay, but hold off for a second on thinking about the other things. Stay with this. Stay with this for two extra minutes. Be there fully. So it’s like not just the awareness later on, but also the awareness in it of, no, actually hold on.

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:02):

Yeah. Let’s make this bubble a little bigger.

Vered Benhorin (11:05):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:07):

Let’s blow a big bubble here.

Vered Benhorin (11:09):

Blow a bigger bubble. Why not? Because in three minutes, I’ll go do another thing. I’ll have to scroll on my phone or talk to a friend or go to work, whatever it is. Why not? If I’m changing the diaper anyway, make this a real mindful moment with my baby.

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:26):

Yeah. And the funny, not funny, the scientific little piece is we know there’s a lot of research that shows that when you are engaging in these present attuned moments and you really genuinely do not have to do it all the time. There’s research out there that says being kind of attuned to your kid and meeting them accurately in the moment, seeing them, meeting their needs, soothing them, whatever. If you’re doing that, I think I’ve seen studies where it’s like as low as 35% of the time is still predictive of secure attachment.That’s not suboptimal. It’s

Vered Benhorin (12:12):

Doable.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:12):

It’s just the reality is it’s not supposed to, nor does it need to be twenty four seven that we are doing that. It’s just not what they need. They need it.

Vered Benhorin (12:22):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:23):

We need it.

Vered Benhorin (12:24):

Exactly. That’s what I wanted to say that it’s not just. As we know from attachment theory, we can’t constantly be in like, what do they need? Because that’s not going to do the trick. It has to be, what do I need? What feels good for me? And if I can really make it into this bubble moment and actually enjoy it, if I can enjoy changing the baby’s diaper and not just have it as like a task I want to get through or like enjoy giving a snack to my kid, I’m sitting there anyway. But if I can bring myself to really enjoy it, then that’s going to be that moment that’s really going to build for both of us because we’re both enjoying it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:01):

Right. And I think it’s like, I could see a scenario where like, okay, we’re not saying you have to enjoy changing dirty diapers. We’re just saying enjoy being with your child in that moment while you’re changing the dirty diaper. And I think a lot of it has to do with where you put your attention. I think Dan Siegel says where your attention goes, your energy flows and neural connection grows or something like that. But if you…

Vered Benhorin (13:29):

I should write a song.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:30):

Put your attention on the dirty diaper, you’re going to not register this as a bubble moment. If you put your attention on your child and your sense of connection to your child in that moment, both are there. The dirty diapers there and your child there. Where you put your attention in that moment, especially if it’s a conscious noticing, ah, I’m putting my attention here and I’m feeling this connection. Ooh, this feels good. And then that’s where the experience is going to be registering. Right.

Vered Benhorin (14:04):

And the reason I talk about diaper, even though. Yeah, you’re right. I’m sure the listeners are like, diaper change. That’s not the highlight of my day. And I remember it being something that I just tried to get through. There were so many things I just tried to get through when I had my first baby especially, because they didn’t seem like the good moments. And it was only years later with all the research that I had done and all the learning that I had done and working with parents and babies that I realized if there are moments, the Groundhog Day moments of the diaper, of the feeding, putting your baby down, getting them when they wake up from the map, these moments that keep coming around and around, if we can actually make those into the bubble moments so that you can. It’s not a stressful thing. We don’t have to say, I shall now have a bubble moment with my baby. You’re with your baby anyway in those moments. So just make them count and then you can relax the other times.

Dr. Sarah Bren (15:05):

Yeah. I think that that is actually the secret sauce. There’s a parenting philosophy called RIE, Resources for Infant Educators. And the woman who developed it, Magda Gerber, she talks a lot about this where she calls it caregiving moments. But if you give your child undivided attention during the caregiving moments and your presence and your attunement and invite them to participate in those moments. And then really intentionally say to yourself as a parent, the rest of the time I’m going to allow kind of uninterrupted freedom and exploration of their environment without me constantly hovering and interrupting and trying to connect. If they want to connect with me, I’m going to respond. But if they’re busy kind of playing, I don’t need to feel like, oh, I’m not doing enough. Because that’s actually, it’s like, what is their attention focused on? If it’s not focused on you, we don’t need to.

(16:05):

Then sometimes we feel like we have to make up for this, I don’t know, this weird pressure we feel to constantly be connecting with or engaging with or stimulating or enriching our child’s life. But it’s like, no, let’s index on the caregiving moments when we are together and when their attention is on us. And then of course in the, that’s like wants something time as Magda Gerber would call it, but in the wants nothing time, we’re still present and available for our kid if they want to connect with us. They want to show us something, we want to be present for that or play with us or whatever. But if they’re doing their own thing, we can step away.

Vered Benhorin (16:47):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:47):

And we’re golden. We don’t need to constantly be oriented to them always.

Vered Benhorin (16:55):

And also because you brought up Magda Gerber, who I love so much. She really inspired this lesson that I talk about with the parents called Explorer State about the baby already being in the Explorer State. And yes, you can let them be in the Explorer State. But what I do find is that when the parent does, is able to join them there for an extra bubble moment in the Explorer State, both benefit because the baby actually learns to explore for even longer because the parent’s not doing anything. The parent is just with, present, letting the baby lead. And the baby, I’ve had parents do this like qualitative experiment at home. Your baby is playing with a thing. Sit next to them like maybe you’re scrolling on your phone. See how long your baby explores. And then put the phone down and just be present for a second and see if your baby explores for longer.

(17:51):

This is not for the rest of their lives. You don’t always have to be there when your baby is exploring. But there is a sense that the baby has. It’s like when you sit down next to your kid when they’re doing homework, there’s a sense of like, all right, I’ve got my support here and I can explore. And bring it to the music for a second. There is a song on the new album called A Beautiful World. And it goes, I see the world through your eyes and it’s a beautiful world. And it was really inspired by these types of moments in the explorer state where the parent then, because they’re able to sit there fully in the bubble moment and let the baby or let the child show them the world, suddenly they see the world differently as a beautiful world. When your baby looks at sand and holds it and they’re looking at it and it’s like diamonds almost.

(18:42):

Or when they’re like looking at the fan on the ceiling or when the kid is just like, I don’t know, discovered something about putting two sticks like this. These are the moments when I think the parent says, “Wow, the world is beautiful through your eyes and now the world is beautiful for me.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:00):

Right. And I love that because I also think that speaks to the mutuality of the benefit of these bubble moments and seeking them out. Your kid is not looking for bubble moments to have with you. That’s just their only vantage point in life. It’s like the fish not knowing that it’s in water. It’s like they want bubble moments with you. You as an adult who’s pulled in a million different directions and has a lot of other just incoming inputs pulling at you, including from the internally, and also externally. It’s our job to kind of seek out and be willing to like open up space for and note and protect and do all the stuff to create these bubble moments. We’re not really create them, just allow them to emerge. They kind of come on their own. We don’t have to like manufacture them. It’s just more like notice and appreciate and participate in.

Vered Benhorin (19:53):

And shift your focus, like you said.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:55):

Yeah. But when we do that, our baby isn’t the only person that benefits. We actually, our world gets bigger. Our gratitude gets more visceral. Our nervous system calms down our shoulders soften. We feel that glow of, “Oh right, this is like what it means to be alive.” To look at sand like it’s diamonds for the very first. God, you just appreciate the magic of their perspective. It’s a huge gift.

Vered Benhorin (20:31):

Yes, yes. Their awe rubs off on you. And we get to see the world for the first time.

Dr. Sarah Bren (20:37):

Yeah. And I don’t think any parent has ever. I think it’s a very universal experience, at least at some point or other in parenthood to be like, “Oh my God, that’s right. I forgot about that.” Or, “Oh, you just get that wave of…” I think gratitude is the word that’s coming to mind, but just in awe. But thank you for reminding me of this vantage point of the world.

Vered Benhorin (21:07):

Exactly. And the last verse always makes me sort of a little emotional. The last verse is how the baby looks at people. And you realize like, oh yeah, people are good. People are good through baby’s eyes, through kids’ eyes. Every person, it takes a while until they start to delineate into judgment comes later. And it’s so beautiful to see once again through your baby’s eyes, see people that you suddenly see, oh, everybody wants love. Everybody wants to be loved.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:40):

Yeah.

Vered Benhorin (21:41):

So you suddenly feel for the first time.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:44):

And I mean, I know that you work with so many parents of infants and babies, and I also know you have kids, gosh, they’re all growing up so fast, but this is very true no matter how old your kid is. My seven, almost seven and eight year old blow my mind on a regular basis when I have a bubble moment, those bubble moments where some of my favorite bubble moments are when my kids blow my mind because they’re just like, I’m like, “Oh my God, you just asked me that question that shows me this vantage point that you have of the world that either I forgot existed or I never knew existed.” And I’m like, “Whoa, that is crazy that you just noticed that or were curious about that or made that connection or didn’t see this thing that I always see because I’ve been trained to see it, like the negative, right?

Vered Benhorin (22:39):

Yeah. Something so simple. My daughter recently came and she was like,” Wait a second. Weak end. Weak end. The end of the week. All these things that we take for granted, we’re so used to them and they come and say, no, hold on. This is actually really cool. This is a beautiful thing.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:02):

“Yes. And I just think that the joy. I mean, I have a self-selecting population. I work with people who come to therapy because something isn’t feeling good. Something isn’t working. And we’re there to sort of help it to feel better, but a lot of it’s focusing on what doesn’t feel good. That’s the lens. And I’m jealous a little bit of that. You get to spend time looking at your lens is the joy and the beauty and the positive. And that’s the orientation. And obviously we do that. I do that too with the people I work with. But there’s something so. It’s very important, I think, to have that counterbalance of like, yes, there are a lot of things that are challenging. We have to solve problems. And also both instead of solving, in addition to solving problems, we have to look for the joy and find moments of delight.

(24:04):

But also that is how we solve problems. If you have a lot of problems going on in your life, one of the ways that we work to make that not feel so overwhelming is to expand our awareness to include joyful, positive, connected time.

Vered Benhorin (24:22):

Exactly. And I haven’t told you yet actually that I’m finishing my licensure in marriage and family therapy now too, adding to the music therapy and the clinical psych. So I’ve been working with a lot of, because I wanted to work with older families. And it’s exactly what you’re saying. Yes, they’ll come in with an issue of some sort, but my orientation is constantly, okay, we’re going to open the dialogue and see what we can do. But then I want to create joy because that’s going to help the other stuff. If the kid can feel that their parent is open to these bubble moments with them, to like joyful moments, to play, to being mindful with them in the session and then hopefully taking it home, that’s going to fix so many things. And often it has to do with like helping the parent find play. The kid knows. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (25:18):

I want to take a quick pause here because one of the things Vered and I keep coming back to is that connection isn’t built through perfection. It’s built through small, everyday moments of feeling understood, supported and emotionally present with one another. But if parenting feels hard right now, it can be incredibly difficult to access those moments. Maybe your child is struggling with big emotions, behavioral challenges, or a difficult diagnosis. Maybe you’re finding yourself caught in power struggles, feeling overwhelmed, or simply wondering if you’re responding in the ways that you hope to. If that’s where you are, you don’t have to navigate this alone. At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer therapy and parent coaching to help make parenting feel easier and more enjoyable. Whether you’re looking for support with a specific challenge or simply want to feel more confident in your parenting overall, we are here to help. With in-person services in Westchester, New York and virtual parenting coaching worldwide, we make it convenient to get support wherever you are. If you’d like to learn more, you can schedule a free 30-minute consultation by visiting upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. Now let’s get back to my conversation with Vered.

(26:36):

I feel like we’ve been gushing about the bubble moments. They’re bought in. Okay. I want to do it. How do I do it? Like what would be examples of, again, I don’t think a true bubble moment is completely manufactured, but you can certainly set it up to emerge. What do you help people do, especially with music, but even outside of music?

Vered Benhorin (27:00):

Yeah. Okay. So let’s first talk about the album. What I hope, and this was like my goal throughout with writing all these songs, is that you put on this album and it helps you feel more silly, feel more joyful. But it’s not because I’m so attachment theory oriented. It’s talking a lot about how the parent feels. It’s not just like, let’s have fun or like the fire truck or whatever. It’s a lot about how are you seeing your kid? What are you doing right now? And there’s one song called Buttons, which is like you push my button and it drives me. It’s sort of like a Megan Trainor type Duavie song. You know my buttons and you push them, push them, push them. But that too, if you have music that’s making you feel during your day, like someone gets you and that you can like move around too, that your normal is a print, that you’re validated and also helps you and your baby jump around.

(28:03):

Like we said before, music helps us get out of the like, “I just want this day to end. I just want my partner to come home and take the kid. I just want to be anywhere else.” Once we put on music that’s right for the situation, it kind of like creates this atmosphere of bubble moment. Obviously you have to also bring your attention like we’re saying, but it really does kind of open that possibility for bubble. I really believe in music to do that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (28:37):

Yes. That makes me think of something, and I don’t know if I’ve talked about this on the podcast or not, but a lot of times when I’m working with a family or with a kid and they’re playing, maybe a lot of times I’ll do family therapy with siblings and like they’ll be playing or they’ll be telling me a story about a time when they were playing with a friend. So they’re in the zone of play, right? They’re in the zone of play, they are playing. And then something happens that’s big enough to pull them out of the zone of play. And like a fight or someone hits somebody. But if you can stay inside the zone of play and there is a hit or a fight, but it’s not so disruptive that it makes you exit the zone of play, you can usually kind of figure it out.Because kids will fight.

(29:29):

There’s a difference. There’s like a qualitative difference when two kids are fighting inside the zone of play. And when it starts to get so tricky and hot that one or both of them exits the zone of play, then you see like it’s the difference between rough and tumble play that’s getting a little bit too rough versus rough and tumble play that’s getting, okay, now someone just got punched in the face and now we’re actually fighting. Whoa, whoa, stop, stop, stop. But music I think also facilitates This zone of play, zone of, I don’t know, playfulness, zone of we’re in a sort of parallel space where we can. It might be really close to the edge of reality, but I can kind of move into almost like a. It’s like a parallel space where it’s easier to work through a lot of the tricky stuff.

Vered Benhorin (30:24):

Yeah. Because I think that in those moments, let’s say when the siblings are fighting, they’re looking to the parent to go, “Wait, are we still in zone of play or not?” And for me, when I had the tiny little toddlers and that was happening, I often shot out of the zone of play because my anxiety level was like. And now I’m feeling stressed and I’m like, “No, wait, stop. Do this.” There’s no more play. But right, what you’re saying is, can we have some sort of a container that music provides or like therapy that provides it where we’re now kind of. It’s tugging us to stay in a place of lightness. And it has so much to do with the parent because the kids are looking to them.

Dr. Sarah Bren (31:06):

Right. And it made me think of just the song you just described where it’s like a song about you’re poking my buttons. If you can tell your kid, they’re starting to really piss you off in the zone of play.

Vered Benhorin (31:19):

Yes.

(31:21):

What I’m imagining with this song, I keep wanting to do a music video. I don’t know if that’s going to happen, but it’s like I want the parent to do the silliest dance possible when they hear this song. Wait, you know my buttons, baby, and you push them, push them, push them. I want the parent. I was with a friend a few weeks ago and she heard the song and she started doing this crazy dance. And we though, “Oh, that’d be really cool if I had a bunch of parents doing that.” Let’s say now their own kid is pushing their buttons and they’re thinking that and they’re like, “Yeah, this is silly dance time because I’m feeling crazed.” So much of it is not like, “Can I get my baby to get out of this?” Rather, “Can I get out of this for a second and then help kid?”

Dr. Sarah Bren (32:09):

Yeah. And listen, if your kid is 10 out of 10 and you’re 10 out of 10, no song’s going to help you. Let’s not pretend here that we’re prescribing this for the super hot moments. But there are also these very recognizable moments. We’ve all had them where we’re like, okay, I’m on a cusp here. I might be exiting the zone of play. My kid might still be pretty receptive to staying inside of it. And if my redirection could be playful instead of non-playful, if I could be genuinely starting to. Let’s say, think of a scale of one to 10, playfulness is like a three, a solid three. It’s active. It’s awake, alert, fun. I might move to a four. If I move to a five or a six, I’m starting to get irritated. I could pull back into the zone of play.

Vered Benhorin (33:08):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (33:09):

I could also keep going and exit it. There’s kind of like a bubble around that four, five, six space.

Vered Benhorin (33:15):

That’s right. That’s right.

Dr. Sarah Bren (33:16):

If you can use music to kind of chill yourself out and say, “Okay, perspective take. But I still need to have my needs met. I need to say, I don’t really like this. I need to pivot. But if I go out of the zone of play, my kid’s also probably going to be harder to pivot because they’re going to exit. They’re going to be rigid. We’re both going to be in this much. Once you’re higher on this regulation scale, options are smaller. Everyone’s edgier. We become more rigid and getting back into this calmer space is harder.

Vered Benhorin (33:49):

Yeah, for sure. And while you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, can I put any music on? And yes, any music can do this, but I actually do think that if you’ve got music that is helping you kind of.

Dr. Sarah Bren (34:04):

Respective take.

Vered Benhorin (34:05):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (34:06):

Or complain about it. How important is it? Can we get playful? Can I choose to be playful here? Right. Okay. How big of a deal is this? Because the problem with dysregulation and frustration and all that is that for our kids and for us, it makes our vision very narrow. So the more dysregulated we are, the more narrow our scope is, the more rigid our perspective is. But when we’re not dysregulated, we have a really wide range of like, oh, wait, relativity. Okay. Is this a big deal or a medium deal? Or maybe even a small deal?

Vered Benhorin (34:51):

Yep. But you know in those really dysregulated moments, obviously we know music can help as well, like lullabies, whatever. But I do have a song that is called Calming, which is what I wanted to know how to do when my babies were little and kids were little and really dysregulated. The song is basically like, I’m right here. I’m right here. Let’s breathe in, let’s breathe out. I’m right here. Which is what I’ve learned from all the years of working with parents and babies. The job isn’t to stop your baby from crying, tantruming in that moment. That’s not your job. Your job is just to be there. And so can you also like music or. There’s so many other things that can help, but can music also help you by saying, “Okay, that’s right. That’s right. I’m right here. Now we’re moving to the rhythm. Now we’re breathing together. And now I’m hearing a soothing thing. And now I’m singing along. I’m right here with you. That’s it.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (35:58):

Yeah. And I also am thinking too, how do you use an album like this or music in general as a tool in parenthood? And I think sometimes where people might get confused or might feel like, oh, this isn’t an option for me to put in my toolbox because if I started singing to my kid to breathe in and breathe out while they were having a meltdown, they would smack me in the face. Thank you very much. I think the really important thing to remember is this isn’t where you introduce a brand new tool when they’re. A 10 is not when you first sing the song to them to get them to. And then magically it will make them calm down. No, really I think, and please correct me if you have seen different ways of using this because I’m just thinking about this sort of right now, but my recommendation would be like, play these songs in life, in the car, in chill moments, in play time moments, have it on in the background.

(36:52):

These are songs that we want them to be familiar with as neutral, just beloved songs. And then when they’re in that hot moment and you’re like, I could pull this familiar, fun thing that has an association to good times, to connected fun times. And also you know the words and you know what I’m referencing right now. It’s a shorthand for saying something else, but we’ve already established that shorthand. Or the connection to using it for shorthand. So like if I were to want to maybe sing to my kid that they’re pushing my buttons, I’d probably want them to know that song so that it becomes like a little nod to like, I could yell at you right now, but I’m going to pull this playful card from our deck and you’re going to know what I’m talking about and what I’m talking about. So it’s almost like a meta, like, oh mom, you’re singing that song that we both know and I know what that song’s about and I know what you’re trying to say to me. And we’re just queuing that up in a way that doesn’t have to require us to say, stop. You are driving me nuts right now.

Vered Benhorin (37:56):

Yes. It’s like an inside joke.

Dr. Sarah Bren (37:58):

Yes.

Vered Benhorin (37:59):

Yeah. I remember with my daughter. I didn’t turn this ever into a song because it was so esoteric, but she was kind of obsessing about a thing. I think she was like eight years old and she was going on and on about like, no, whatever it was, I don’t remember. But she had this freckle on her leg. And I said, you see this dot? It’s almost like you’re getting stuck on the dot. And you’re going around around and getting stuck on the dot. And we talked about this. What would it mean to see just the dot or to see the other freckles, to see the leg? And then from then on, she would say, I’m getting stuck on the dot, aren’t I? And that forever became our thing.

Dr. Sarah Bren (38:35):

Yes. And I think that really, if you want to take a tactic and you want to make it usable for lots and lots of different use cases, it’s this. If you’re really going to pull this out, what’s the fundamental core essence of what we’re trying to say is you need to be able to come up with exposing kids to familiar things that you then can use in hot moments as a shortcut, as a inside language that orients them back to very quickly and very emotionally and viscerally. That’s why music is a really useful tool because it taps in. Like you were saying earlier, it’s not just thinking, it taps you. It’s like a really quick shortcut right into the emotion state, which is also where our connections, feeling connected to and feeling seen by another live. So we can just get there quicker. And it’s such a useful tool, but the function really is you got to create the associations in chill, connected, fun, playful moments. So you can draw upon them in hot moments later as a quick shortcut.

Vered Benhorin (39:48):

Yeah, absolutely. Then that’s why a lullaby works so well. But I do think it can also work in hot moments. And I’m sure that some listeners have had experience with this of like, if you’re able to sing or play a music that’s soothing to you, you as a parent, then it’s the co-regulation. Your body will start to relax. If you’re holding your kid, your kid will feel that. And it’ll be this feedback loop that I do think music can also create even on a first time listen. But yes, it’s going to be more effective if it’s become a behavioral cue.

Dr. Sarah Bren (40:24):

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So if people are interested in getting this album, if they want to learn more about your work, tell us where we can connect them to.

Vered Benhorin (40:37):

Okay. So the music will be on Spotify, Amazon iTunes. It’s at Vered, V-E-R-E-D. And the album is called Adorable You. The lead track is all about. I still feel this way. I have this feeling like, “Oh, this is the best stage right now.” Since they’re babies, it was like, “Oh no, this is the best stage.” And that’s what that song is about, how every single moment you’re going, “Oh no, this is my favorite stage.” And once again, I want the parent to be listening to a song like this with their baby going, “Well, how grateful am I for this stage?” But I also know there’s going to be amazing stages to come. So anyway, so it’s called Adorable You. It’s going to be on Spotify, Amazon, iTunes. Then you can also get me on my website @babyintune and on Instagram @babyintune.

Dr. Sarah Bren (41:28):

Amazing. Well, I’m just glad to have your music back in my house again. I just have so many good memories of dancing to all of your songs, my kids.

Vered Benhorin (41:40):

I told you before that there’s one song that I think is absolutely going to make you cry. This album is being produced by my son who is now 17, and he inspired the very first album and he’s now producing it. And so this song, The Day We Brought You Home, is about the fact that he is producing it and creating it. And he sings on it and it makes me cry every single time I’m here.

Dr. Sarah Bren (42:03):

Oh my gosh. It all comes full circle. It’s so cool. And I think it’s also. The delight doesn’t ever have to end. Yes. I think sometimes, I know we’ve been talking about like, oh, we got to find delight in the really tough moments in parenthood, which is for sure true. But also I think on the other side of that coin is I think a lot of parents have a lot of anxiety about like, “Oh my God, this is going to go away soon.” There’s a lot of scarcity and white knuckling, clutching so tightly to it and that grief of losing moments fast. And I think there’s something equally important in remembering. The bubble moments help the hard moments balance out, but also the bubble moments help the good moments feel more forever moments. There’s always…

Vered Benhorin (42:48):

And I will say that even with my teenagers, I’m still focused on having bubble moments. They just look different. For instance, a bubble moment with my teenager might look like me just coming and sitting and flopping down on the couch next to them and waiting to see if something opens. It’s me making a bubble moment available and then it just happens. It starts. Or it’s like walking the dog together or watching a show together. It looks different, but I’m very cognizant of how can we create bubble moments together.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:20):

Yeah. And even like as an adult, and my mom’s probably listening to this episode right now. Hi mom, because she’s amazing. But honestly, I need to have bubble moments. I want to have bubble moments with her. It never ends. And I got to look for those moments and like, I’m going to cry. Every time, three episodes in a row. I want to have bubble moments with my mom. This is important for the whole lifespan.

Vered Benhorin (43:50):

Yes. Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:53):

Thank you. I love you so much.

Vered Benhorin (43:55):

It’s like Cuba Gooding Jr. in Jerry McGuire. Remember when Wendy didn’t want to cry?

Dr. Sarah Bren (44:00):

Yeah. Oh my God. So funny. I love seeing you. I love listening to you in my headphones and in my kitchen. So we’ll put links to everything so people can find your amazing work and we’ll talk soon.

Vered Benhorin (44:15):

Okay. I appreciate you. I am so excited to read your book.

Dr. Sarah Bren (44:19):

Oh, thank you.

Vered Benhorin (44:20):

And I love what you’re doing. So thank you for having me once again.

Dr. Sarah Bren (44:24):

Thank you. If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you. Share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on. And let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me. And just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how this show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.