Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back to another Beyond the Sessions segment here on Securely Attached. I have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg with me here to answer our listener question. Thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Rebecca (00:55):

My pleasure. So nice to see you as always. I apologize today I’ve got a little bit of a sore throat situation, so I’m still me. I just sound all…

Dr. Sarah (01:03):

You sound like when Phoebe has her sexy voice smelly cat song.

Dr. Rebecca (01:09):

Oh, yes, yes. I will break into song in a few minutes.

Dr. Sarah (01:11):

Yes, that was a Friends reference for everyone who’s too young listening to this.

Dr. Rebecca (01:15):

That’s not 40, right?

Dr. Sarah (01:18):

Although I feel like it’s timeless, maybe. Who knows? Okay, so today we’re going to be, so I got a submission on the website from a mom who sent in sort of a broader topic, not a specific question, which leads me to also mention if anyone listening ever has a question that you want us to tackle or just a broad topic, maybe you don’t have a specific question, maybe it’s kind of like something more broad. You can always send that in. Go to dr sarah.com/question and we will get it and we’ll answer your question on the podcast or discuss a topic of interest to you. But anyway, this mom sent in this topic and basically broadly she says, ways to address masturbating by a three-year-old and a five-year-old. So I immediately was like, Ooh, Rebecca, this is going to be an interesting, we have to do this on the podcast because I dunno about you.

(02:13):

I feel so many questions from parents asking about what’s age appropriate, how do I respond in a way that isn’t shaming, but also helps them understand that they can’t have their hand in their pants at the restaurant or in school, and how do we help kids understand what’s happening in their body, what feels good, and also understand where they can explore and where maybe they don’t, it’s not as appropriate or where maybe not even be as safe for them to be doing that. And then also I feel like layering onto the possibilities of where we could take this topic is talking about our own internalized beliefs and systems for thinking about masturbation sex.

(03:09):

And just also breaking it down from a developmental perspective of I think parents are often really surprised if they become a parent and haven’t had a lot of experience around babies and young kids. Essentially as a boy mom being like, oh my gosh, my infant can have an erection. My infant son. I was like, whoa, I didn’t know that that was a thing. And so I think as a culture, we really don’t talk about all the ways that the body works. And so it’s always surprising for parents when they’re seeing young kids exploring their bodies in a way that maybe we’re primed to think is either good or bad or needs to be labeled some type of thing when it’s quite developmentally typical. So I don’t know, maybe we could just kind of dive in. What are some of the thoughts you’re having from all those things?

Dr. Rebecca (04:13):

Yeah, no lot. I have a lot of thoughts. There’s so many great resources about this sort of thing for families precisely because of what you said, which is that it’s just new. How would you necessarily know how to speak with young kids about these issues? And that a lot of parents really feel strongly that they don’t want to do it the way that their parents did. A lot has changed in some ways about how we as a society think and talk about these things. And so I just want to share my absolute favorite story that I had from a client about this, which is I think they had a 4-year-old boy and they were dealing with this issue where the boy kept touching his penis and they were trying to speak with him about where to do it and where not to do it. And at one point he was doing it in the park, and so the dad sort of gently reminded him that that’s something to do in his bedroom or whatever it was.

(05:09):

And the kid said, but daddy, when I touch myself there, it makes my heart sparkle, which I just thought was the cutest child expression of what I think is a great place to start, which is that this feels good not, and I think there’s sometimes parents will say, well, we know it’s not at all sexual. And that’s true if we think of sexual as something that’s requires going through puberty in order to feel those things. But it does feel good. Those parts of your body have the highest number of nerve endings. And so people will say, well, we should treat it exactly the same way that we treat the way it is. If a kid touches their elbow. Also not entirely, right, because there’s a reason your kid doesn’t touch their elbow over and over and over again. It doesn’t feel as good. So again, I think there’s this in-between of, it’s not sexual in terms of exactly what you mentioned, Sarah, perhaps our own associations with that word or that action or whatever.

(06:20):

But it’s also not completely neutral. It’s a real pleasure sensitive area. And my first thought, which is kind of often my first thought when we have these conversations about so many things, it’s just the importance of naming that for your kid of just saying it out loud, not for your infant per se, but once you have a child who has some receptive language, two, three saying, yeah, it feels really good to touch there, that feels really nice. And we call that area, we name it, and I think we’ve done episodes on the importance of using anatomically correct language. So yeah, that’s called your penis or that’s called your vulva. And it feels really good when you touch there and we also call it one of your private places because whatever. And you have that whole conversation that, and then that leads to a conversation about where we do it and where we don’t do it. Although I don’t know, now I’m getting stuck because I feel like two years old is a bit too young to talk about where we do it and where we don’t do it. I think that’s probably drawing more attention to it that is going to make it, I mean, I can see two year olds, you know.

Dr. Sarah (07:34):

Right? Well, I think it also depends on is your 2-year-old, where are you having this conversation? Probably you’re going to have these sort of preliminary introductory conversations in a moment where you have a private space to speak to them. Chances are it’s like when you’re on the changing table or in the bathtub or where we’re home, not always, but probably where you’re going to have these more longer conversations. And again, when I say long for a two-year-old, it’s not long, but maybe longer than like, oh, hey, we’re not going to do that right here right now if we’re literally on the city bus or on the subway or in a place where we are really not in control of protecting our child’s privacy. So sometimes you’re just going to…

Dr. Rebecca (08:29):

Although again, depending on your kid and depending on the age, which is what I was thinking when you just said that, it’s like that’s going to make them do it 50 times more. So again, it’s like these ages where I’ve seen parents who are constantly saying to their kid, don’t do that, don’t do that. And it just increase it. It’s like, I’m three. So the same way you tell me not to do this and I do it, I’m going to do that all the time. So I think on the city bus, yes, hopefully most kids, if you say We’re not going to do that now in a serious tone of voice, they’re going to listen. But also just being aware, it may be that that’s a moment to really use distraction, talk about something else, do something. Because those are the ages where you say no, your kid’s like, oh no, you’re saying no. I’m saying yes.

Dr. Sarah (09:13):

And that also makes me think too of another thing to have in the back of our minds, which is why might they be doing this right now? Yes, it could just be like, oh, hey, that feels good and I want to keep doing it. It keeps feeling good. Oftentimes, a lot of kids touch their private parts as a mechanism of self-soothing, right? So it could not always, but it could be a sign your child’s feeling a little anxious or they’re feeling a little overstimulated. So is if you think it’s kind of in your mind mentally, throw a spaghetti at the wall, kind of run through the possibilities. If you think your child’s feeling a little nervous or a little overstimulated, you might find a way to help them regulate in another manner. And it might just be, again, to your point, Rebecca guess distraction would be helpful, but kind of thinking what’s the means to what end, right? If I’m just trying to distract my kid because they’re entertaining themselves that way and you would like them to entertain themselves in a different way, versus they’re managing sort of an internal feeling of potentially discomfort and they’re trying to soothe themselves, then you might distract or offer soothing in towards a different end trying to help them.

Dr. Rebecca (10:30):

Or are they doing it, which I’ve seen a lot. Are they an older sibling to a new baby, right? Because a lot of times there’s a new baby on the scene when let’s say you have a three or 4-year-old, and so they’ve learned that that’s when you’re going to look up and give them attention again, negative attention, which we’ve talked about. So I think in some ways, one of the take homes is one of the usual take homes that we have on this podcast, which is how important it’s to pause and to be able, as you said, to throw spaghetti at the wall without being overcome by our own stuff, which Lord knows, there’s few things that bring up our own stuff as much as this topic, the image, the idea of self-stimulation or whatever it is, and your own discomfort depending on how you were raised, depending on your cultural beliefs, there’s so much here. Your discomfort as a parent may spike in that moment, and you may respond in an anxious or uncomfortable or dysregulated way that then brings so much weight to this. And again, we’ve talked about this before, the importance of can you notice that? Can you take a breath, can you pause and be able to respond in a way that tunes into your child and what your child is actually communicating and needs in that moment.

Dr. Sarah (11:54):

Yeah, totally. I think it’s helpful too to talk a little bit about, you mentioned it before, the importance of naming your child, having language for our body parts that are anatomically accurate. The reason, one of the major reasons why is because that’s a very big protective factor in terms of abuse prevention because sadly, people who are looking to sexually or emotionally abuse children are often looking for kids who would be easier targets that maybe don’t seem to be as verbally sophisticated when it comes to reporting or understanding what’s going on. And typically, if a kid is referencing their penis or their vagina or their vulva, that’s kind of a bit of almost like a dog whistle that says like, okay, somebody is teaching this child how to know what’s going on in their body and how to be able to tell an adult who’s paying attention that something’s going on.

(13:01):

So that’s not an actually ideal target. And so it’s a very big protective factor when it comes to abuse prevention. I also think it’s helpful in terms of that sort of body positivity and mitigating some of the internalized shame that a lot of people maybe in earlier generations like ours or older may have around sexual expression, self pleasure being connected to our body. And obviously again, as you get older, that evolves into a much more sophisticated sort of thing. But even young kids, we don’t want to infuse a lot of shame into exploring your body. But I do think hand in hand with that goes boundaries because I think boundaries supports safety. Knowing when it is okay to explore your body and what privacy means is also a protective factor because again, if your child doesn’t understand when and where certain behaviors around their body are appropriate, again, that makes ’em more vulnerable to being a victim of abuse because it becomes blurrier and harder for them to know unequivocally, if they were in a situation where someone approached them that this is never an okay place for this to happen.

(14:42):

So this context that helps our children understand, I mean, if any adult is ever going to be talking to them or asking about their private parts or wanting to touch their private parts, that’s never okay. Obviously outside of a doctor where your parent isn’t, you give them the kind of context, but I dunno, like you said, Rebecca, when you start to talk about this threads emerge that you can choose to pull on, that can lead to more nuanced conversation about helping kids understand there’s a lot of complexity to this topic. And again, you don’t have to dump it all on them at once, but it’s like you can kind of build and construct a narrative over time as these things emerge that allows you to help give your kids a better way of being safe in the world and a healthy, real positive relationship with their body. And so I think that’s a nice thing that can come out of this.

Dr. Rebecca (15:46):

Yeah, I mean, there’s so much to say, and I’m trying to just, I’m sitting here and thinking the word private, I remember speaking about with our kids because it started to feel like the way it was being used at school and preschool at the time was sort of associated with shame, which I think is a sort of fallback or default thing that sometimes happens like, oh, that’s our private area. We don’t show people, we don’t talk about it. And so really trying to speak with my kids about how sometimes we keep our most precious things private and our most delicate things that it’s about. And again, this nerve ending idea, I mean, my kids at least we’re really into that medical, or I shouldn’t say medical, biological information about nerve endings and how there’s more like in your fingertips and your tongue, but notice when I touch your shoulder, there’s less, and that we keep really sensitive things private because they can be hurt or the level of feeling is so strong there. And it was a logical explanation and kind of a biological explanation that I felt as a parent very comfortable with to kind of counter what I think the going take on private can sometimes be.

(16:59):

And similarly, this idea which we’ve referenced, but I don’t know that we spelled out explicitly yet, which is it feels good when you touch it there and it’s okay to do that, and here’s where when it is, okay, and here’s where when it’s not okay, and again, that the not okay has to do with safety and privacy and not about it’s bad or shameful and germs. I remember tying it to germs, so it’s not just for other people, it’s that your hands are dirty. You wouldn’t put, it’s the same way we ask you not to put them in your mouth when we’re on the city bus, for example. And so there’s all kinds of ways if you pause and think about it, to tie it to other things so it doesn’t become this separate topic that’s so different from everything else that you talk about in so many ways, which I think can be helpful for kids.

Dr. Sarah (17:57):

Yeah, no, I think that’s a really helpful distinction, very much this idea that even helping them understand what privacy really means and having some nuance to it. Because I remember talking to my kids about saying private in the sense that it’s just for you, right? This is a totally okay thing for you to do, but also you can do it in your room or you could do it in the bathroom, or you could do it in a place that’s where you can be with yourself, and it’s just for you to do this right now. And so we don’t touch ourselves in our private places in the family room because that’s a time that’s just for you, which I think is also permission giving to your point that you are welcome to do this, this, there’s nothing wrong with it. And instead of saying kind of focusing on the negative, what you don’t do and why exclusively, maybe starting with the positive, to your point, it feels good.

(19:01):

There’s a lot of nerve endings there. It’s very pleasant thing to do, and it’s precious and it’s for you, and it’s separate from the family space because it’s just for you and it is private, and that’s private without a secrecy or sweeping it under the rug private, which I think is a helpful distinction. Genuinely, I think there’s so much depth that we could take to this, but since it was sort of without much information or context, I feel like this is probably a good place to end. And then if people have more specific questions like how to handle a particular situation or why you might do this versus that, definitely feel free to email us because I think there’s so much specifics. I mean, I feel like I get asked a lot of questions around like, okay, well, what about in this situation or that situation? And I think that makes it a little easier to dive into the more nuances of it all because complex as most things are.

Dr. Rebecca (20:17):

Yeah. The only thing I would add as we wrap is, and I think we both hinted at this, but I want to make it really explicit that it’s one of those areas to my mind, equivalent with discipline and conversations about money, conversations about religion. It’s one of those areas where I think it’s tremendously important to reflect on your own beliefs, both those that you cherish and value and those that have gotten in your way that perhaps you choose to have, but maybe you got them from your own parents or just from the culture at large. And to be really intentional to the extent it’s possible, and it isn’t always, but to be conscious and intentional about your awareness of where you stand on those things and what you want for your kid, because it’s an area where they’re going to be getting a lot of messages insidious, subtle from the culture at large. And you as a parent have this gift of being able to be proactive and really thoughtful about what you want the messages to be, and that requires a little bit of extra work and exploration on your part. And to my mind, this is an area where it’s really worthwhile.

Dr. Sarah (21:33):

Yeah, I agree. And even just to that point in a moment, that’s not reactive, right? It’s always helpful to buffer some of the reactive moments of conversation with some proactive moments of conversation because I think, again, we might be verbally explicitly saying and communicating that our child doesn’t need to have shame around this, but if we only talk about it when it’s happening in a way of shutting it down, it can have the opposite effect. It can still lead to that sense of shame or embarrassment. Whereas if we could talk about this when it’s not in the moment, it also models that, Hey, this is something we talk about. This is also one of the many things we talk about that’s completely okay to talk about. Well, thank you so much, Rebecca. Always a pleasure.

Dr. Rebecca (22:27):

Always a pleasure. Love this stuff.

Dr. Sarah (22:30):

All right, talk to you soon.

Dr. Rebecca (22:32):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (22:34):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.