Sharon (00:00):

Pleasure, curiosity, that’s it. And staying within that realm. I think that’s also it when there’s perfectionists involved, and I do work with a lot of recovering perfectionists, myself included. It’s sort of like if it’s not perfect or amazing or on display at the Whitney, I’m not going to do it at all. And it’s like, no, just start anywhere for the pure process of doing it.

Dr. Sarah (00:27):

If you’ve been feeling burned out, emotionally stuck or just overwhelmed by the demands of life in general, adding moments of creativity and playfulness into your routine might be the missing piece. You need to help you feel more balanced and grounded. I’m joined this week by Sharon Itkoff Nacache, a board certified registered art therapist with over 15 years of clinical experience specializing in supporting caregivers. Sharon is also the owner of Co-Create Art Therapy and the author of the new book, The Days Before I Met You: A Creative Space honoring the Birth of a Parent. Together, we’re diving deep into the world of art therapy, what it is, what it isn’t, and how it can help both adults and children process emotions, integrate challenging experiences, and build something. Sharon calls creative resilience. We’ll also talk about some of the common myths around art therapy, like the idea that you have to be good at art for it to work. Spoiler alert, you absolutely don’t how different materials can support different emotional needs and ways to begin incorporating more creativity into your life as a tool for self-regulation and growth. So whether you’re a parent, a therapist, or someone who’s simply curious about how creativity and healing intersect, this conversation is full of powerful insights and tangible takeaways.

(01:56):

Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights. So you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. This is Securely Attached.

(02:25):

Hello, we have Sharon Itkoff Nacache here. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Sharon (02:36):

Hi everybody. Welcome.

Dr. Sarah (02:39):

I am really excited about this episode. So if people are listening in and are curious, can you tell them a little bit about what you do and how you got into this particular, what about art therapy and this kind of work really got you excited and interested?

Sharon (02:58):

Absolutely. Let’s jump right in and thank you for having me. So I am a licensed creative arts therapist in New York. That’s an LCAT in New Jersey. That’s LA, that’s some of the letters you’ll see after my name. I’ve been practicing for over 15 years, always was an artist first, but a very sensitive artist, not a type that can just go out in the galleries and promote myself more like the touchy feely kind. And so I was always naturally gravitating towards psychology. I come from a long line of mental health professionals and I studied at Pratt Institute where I got my master’s. I’ve worked, Sarah and I were talking for a minute about our past lives. I worked a little bit in inpatient psychology. I mostly started with children doing art therapy. Later I worked in a substance use disorder clinic where I did most of my training. And interestingly, that closed two days before my due date with my first child. So it sort of was like this natural, I don’t know what you found…

Dr. Sarah (04:01):

Evolution.

Sharon (04:02):

Yes, thank you. Or a cosmic collision is sort of how it felt, where suddenly I found myself a stay at home, first time mom in this totally new role, and it was a tough adjustment. This was back in 2017, so even pre pandemic and being a mental health professional already practicing very connected. I was just kind of floored by how hard it is and how isolating it can feel and how it’s so hard to access resources even for someone who’s already so-called plugged in. So that kind of spurned my other journey, which was finding perinatal mental health and postpartum support international. And I sort of was healing myself as I started to specialize in study perinatal art therapy. And then I wrote a book, which we could talk about in a minute as part of my coping and got certified in perinatal mental health and then kind of launched my practice, co-create art therapy shortly after my second child was born. So it was kind of a reparative experience with that.

(05:08):

And I’ve been practicing ever since. So I call myself a perinatal art therapist, and that includes the PMHC, perinatal Mental Health certification. And I mostly support caregivers, I call it caregivers, creatives and caregivers in just navigating this life stage. And this could be from the moment it sparks, do I even want a child, am I interested in procreating? And the ambivalence around that all the way through parenting stress, and now it’s turning into more women’s health, perimenopause, menopause beyond, because I do think postpartum is forever. So that’s a little bit about me in a nutshell.

Dr. Sarah (05:49):

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. We were talking before we started recording, but it’s interesting how interest in art early on can take so many different paths. I was sharing with you that I was an art major before I went into psychology. And interestingly, I was at NYU and for undergrad where I majored in interdisciplinary studies. And at the end of my senior year, I had to write this sort of thesis integrating the different things I’d studied, which was mostly art and psychology. And my thesis was on Dali and Serialism and Dreams Analysis and with Freudian and Jungian Dream Analysis. And so it was a very weird intersection, but it was really fun to write about.

Sharon (06:43):

Fascinating.

Dr. Sarah (06:45):

And then I went and pursued my PhD in clinical psychology, and I had, on my very first placement in my training program, I was on an inpatient unit and I was running our therapy groups and I loved it. I did not know what I was doing. And I think that’s one of the reasons why I was so excited to have this conversation with you because it’s a very complex way of doing therapeutic work. Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about what is our therapy? What are maybe some misconceptions about it and what it really looks like and feels like?

Sharon (07:27):

Yes. And you touched on so many things. Let’s make sure we go back to young if we can later. But yeah, I mean, inpatient art therapy is the most clinical you can get, right? And that is working with a population who probably has acute, maybe multiple diagnoses, maybe lower ego functioning, so maybe highly defended a lot of inpatient psych art therapy looks like kind of containing and finding a safe externalization of just feelings and maybe reconnecting to the artist self as opposed to just the patient self. There’s this amazing art therapist who’s still practicing Pat Allen, and she wrote an article which I can send to you later, called Deification Syndrome or something like that. And it was all about how art therapy had become overly ized. And she actually developed this modality called open studio process, which was really more about just relating to patients as artists and giving them a space through writing and drawing or even other types of media just to express in a more kind of humanistic way and less clinical.

(08:41):

And that was kind of a revolution in terms of how art therapy can kind of be applied in those settings. But traditionally, so art therapy has been around since I think the forties, but really forever. We all as humans have cave paintings and just scribbling. I mean the natural kinesthetic healing properties of art have always existed. I think it’s our first language. We are pre-verbal when it comes to art making, we think in images, but as a field, it kind of concretized in the forties. And there are a couple schools of thought. There’s that open studio model which is gently structured but very humanistic and probably the least clinical. And then there’s art as therapy, which is just what I mentioned before, which is just that anybody can do it at home. It’s the adult coloring books. It’s things that just naturally feel therapeutic. It’s sort of more where the book that I wrote is in that category of just we’re all artists, we can all access it at any time.

(09:45):

And then there’s art psychotherapy, which is the clinical field. And I would say in the inpatient setting you can get to that symbolic level, but you really are kind of in that primary process, just like externalize it mode. I think individual art therapy with other populations, and we work with everybody. My youngest client was three when I was in the public sector all the way up to, I think he was like 79 or something like that. So I mean, all populations, I would say it’s particularly useful modality with trauma, and I think it’s mostly just because it helps trauma fragments our ability to rationally process and make meaning. And I think art is such an amazing way to integrate and to look at those pieces and to organize. So with traumatized populations, it’s particularly useful. And then there’s that symbolic element of can we actually take this to another level and it’s more depth oriented and maybe bringing in dream work or getting a little more abstract in the thinking. So that was a complex definition, but it really is. I mean, we work in the gray. That is what we do. And it’s funny, you said you probably had no idea what you were doing, but I would argue you had some psychology background already. You had the support in that structure that was a form of art therapy Absolutely. That you were offering. Then there’s title protection and scope of practice and all that. Was it formally art therapy? That’s a different area, but I think elements of that absolutely. You were providing, and that’s amazing.

Dr. Sarah (11:28):

And I think what I hear too, in the way you described the different ways it can kind of get utilized in treatment is there’s this very concrete way of it being a very containing organizing more basic form, and then it can move into a more integrating form, helping create a coherent narrative, helping to make sense of things in a way that is very whole and full and safer and more organized. And then to take it to the final kind of stretches if you wanted to go there, you go out into a more symbolic and abstract act exploratory space that allows people to expand beyond what is happening in the here and now or what had happened in the past. So that’s a cool, I don’t know, because art is such a concrete, tangible thing versus talk therapy, which is harder sometimes, I think certainly for kids, but even for adults, to always be able to go verbally to those places. I think to move through that arc of complexity and integration can be done more. Sometimes it’s more accessible with something so concrete like art.

Sharon (12:56):

Yep. And thank you. You just synthesized what I said so beautifully. You actually just kind of summarized something called the expressive therapies continuum, which is exactly that, which is starting more in that primary state and then moving almost through the body to a more depth oriented, abstract symbolic process. That’s amazing. Yeah, so thanks for saying that. But yeah, I think it’s all about the externalization and also the buffer that the object provides, especially if you’re in person. I’m virtual now, so it works a little different, but I’m with a perinatal population, so in other ways that works better.

(13:34):

But just having that, if anyone who’s ever worked with a teen or has a teen or even a toddler sitting and being like, how do you feel? Look me in the eye and tell me can be extremely triggering and threatening. And so when you have that other thing to project onto that other focal point, it just completely opens up the space in this really organic way. So it’s just I am trained as a verbal psychotherapist. I love DBT, I love sprinkling in other things, but I think my go-to that, the tool I’m always ready to bring out, even if it’s just to get out of our heads, is the art therapy component because it automatically is somatic. We’re already moving into a different processing by working with our hands.

Dr. Sarah (14:22):

Yes, it makes me think too, I do a lot of play therapy and I see play therapy as a very useful tool for constructing an idea and an intention for the child and helping them to create a way of flowing more fluidly through that. And in doing so, working on skill building and emotion regulation and problem solving and integrating all kinds of important things from their experience. But a lot of times people will say less parents, well, sometimes parents, but definitely other therapists who have a hard time moving from talk therapy to play therapy will say, I just feel like I’m just playing games. How is this really therapy? And I could do a whole episode just on why that is definitely not what’s happening. And there is so much therapeutic work happening in these play moments. I imagine you get similar questions when it comes to art. How are we doing therapy? We’re just drawing or we’re just making art. And I know that that’s a misconception and I would love for you to bust that a bit and help people. How do you answer those kinds of questions and how do you help people see what’s really happening underneath?

Sharon (15:44):

I so appreciate that question and solidarity with those questions because that’s a big part of my role is psychoeducation all the time. And we are not just finger painting and drawing with crayons. That’s very valuable. It also is all of this, and I guess where I start is the relational component. I mean, that’s another distinguishing factor. It’s the space that we’re holding. It’s our therapeutic presence. It’s valuing each micro moment and kind of observing compassionately what’s happening, whether it’s the play or the art making. And I think it’s the lens we use. I think for art therapists, the materials give us so much information. The body language gives us information. I mean, if I’m working with somebody that’s very, very anxious, I would probably stick to dry materials, materials that kind of contain maybe find point a little bit or a way to kind of pound it out a little bit. Maybe it would be model magic or maybe it would be tearing with collage, a way to just kind of externalize some of that nervous energy, but not in a way that would be too fluid, muddy, emotional bleeding out, if that makes sense.

(17:02):

And then if I have somebody that is a little bit more, I hate to say repressed, but let’s just say not ready to share yet, then I would maybe introduce some of that more wet sensory material just because it’s very hard to not express yourself when you’re starting to get a little bit messy and introducing more of that fluidity. So even just the use of materials and understanding that and knowing, or if I’m working with somebody who has a sexual assault history and an older client, I wouldn’t bring in the very charcoal and the oil-based clay, the things that can just get messy and feel triggering and too tactile, that could feel it’s kind of paralleling our ego functioning that can feel a little bit too permeable and too threatening. So it’s kind of just constantly assessing the material, again, the affect and body language in the room, and then using the relationship and the trust that we’re building in each moment just to kind of hold that space together. So I would say that’s a lot more than just play or just scribbling.

Dr. Sarah (18:22):

Really there’s a lot of attunement, a lot of co-regulation, and also a lot of meeting them where they’re at and then scaffolding and stretching to maybe just outside of that zone of that window of tolerance to use Dan Siegel language. But is that the goal? And are you working on how much, are you just letting that unfold or how much are you actively reflecting on that process with the client?

Sharon (19:02):

Great question. Again, it depends on so many factors. I think how long I’ve been working with a person, what the current life stressors are generally just in my own sort of cheat sheet in my head, I’m constantly assessing am I building up defenses today or am I, do we need to be more supportive and holding, or do I need to be gently helping to break some of those down that are no longer serving us? Do you know what I meanly and I’m constantly doing that dance. And sometimes with clients I’ve worked with for a number, we do it together. I’m like, is this feeling okay? I’m constantly checking in with them and trying to empower them in the process. And there are days where they’re just like, Ugh, this is just not resonating, or This feels like too much. Let’s just pause here. Generally, no, by the time I segue into the art making, it’s usually welcome, but it’s a very delicate balance, I think.

Dr. Sarah (20:00):

Yeah. And do you find that people come to you when they call you up and say, I’d like to start working with you. What are their expectations? Are they wanting to do art throughout the whole process? Is it something you fold in as you go? I’m curious what it looks like in the room.

Sharon (20:19):

Yes. Again, dependent on the setting. When I was in child inpatient, it was very much prompt based and very directive, mostly working on emotional regulation and post control, working together, motor skills, very concrete goals. When I worked in the substance use disorder, a lot of my clients were mandated. So it was like, whatever, if I got to be here, you tell me and kind of reluctant. But then through the relationship, there would be a gradual melting of the walls, mixing metaphors here, but you know what I mean? I get what? The armor. The armor.

Dr. Sarah (20:58):

Well, the safety started to build. They could lean in instead of stay protected against being vulnerable or sharing something. Exactly. They have to trust you.

Sharon (21:09):

Or just linking into an interest they already have of like, oh, we can do some stitching while we talk. That’s cool.

Dr. Sarah (21:16):

Yeah, not just trust you then, but trust that this can feel good.

Sharon (21:19):

Exactly. Right. So there’s the secondary gain of this is just pleasurable in the moment, and that’s great. Also, if we’re doing any trauma processing, like, Ooh, it didn’t feel like this last time I talked about it. This is feeling like I’m working through this differently today.

(21:35):

And then in the private practice, because I’m with perinatal, which again, I mostly end up seeing pregnant and early postpartum clients, even though I welcome the whole spectrum, that also can present a little bit differently. I think I have nervous first time moms who need to process and really want to just sort of stay anchored to some sense of self. So it can be a lot of calming activities and grounding and also just spaces to reflect journaling. And then I’ve actually had an influx of traumatic birth clients recently, and that’s very much crisis intervention, just holding the space and gently processing once there’s enough supports in place. So that’s again, a very delicate process. And then also people who had a healthy labor delivery and are fine, but just very sleep deprived, my newly postpartum. But if they have the baby nearby, sometimes they don’t want to work with their hands, but they do want to talk in metaphor, they do want to share a dream or maybe show me a piece of art from the past, and maybe they’re feeling a little less verbal because anyone with mommy brain knows that that’s the first thing to go, and that’s not the part of our brain that’s hyperactive in the moment, so let’s lean into these other skill sets. So there’s a variety of ways to work depending on where they are, I think developmentally.

Dr. Sarah (23:15):

Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. I love to, this book that you wrote, can you talk a little bit about, my understanding is the book is, it’s not like a supplement art therapy in a book form. It’s sort of like this, you can do this on your own, and this is a way of stretching these muscles or exercising these muscles of holding space for creative, creative generation, generating creative output as a way of healing or building resilience or just reconnecting with the self.

Sharon (23:55):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (23:55):

Am I getting that right?

Sharon (23:56):

Absolutely, yes.

Dr. Sarah (23:57):

Okay, cool.

Sharon (23:58):

It’s a great book pitch. Yes. I mean, and it’s complicated. When I was putting it, when I was trying to find the categories on Amazon of where it fits, it kind of crosses a lot of, it’s a picture book, first of all, for first time expecting parents, and then there’s this participatory component. So is it journaling crosses boundaries a little bit, but here it is, those who are able to see, it’s called the days before I Met You, A creative space honoring the birth of a parent. And I’ll just kind of talk about the process a little bit. It was born out of my own angst in my third trimester. I wasn’t sleeping, my job was closing its doors any moment. So there was this impending doom or excitement, but I was looking into the abyss. It was very intense, and I just intuitively turned to colored pencils and sketching and rhyme. Interestingly, a little bit of narrative therapy where I decided, okay, I’m in my third trimester. I’m going a little bit crazy. I’m going to make this into something. And I think our therapy is all about that. It doesn’t mean it’s not a toxic positivity thing where it’s make it all beautiful, but it’s more like, let’s just take this process, lean into it and see what we can shape it into.

Dr. Sarah (25:22):

It’s like taking what you were saying earlier, not that you have to have trauma to feel fragmented, but when we do feel fragmented or scattered or disorganized, disintegrated, taking all these pieces and putting them together in a way that tells something coherent, cohesive, something narrative. It’s organizing and grounding and orienting. Exactly. So that makes so much sense to me.

Sharon (25:49):

Exactly. Plus I was working towards this product. I was like, oh, as it started out with doodles, and I actually have my original sketchbook where I wrote it, which I just wanted to kind of share that.

Dr. Sarah (25:58):

Oh, that’s so cool.

Sharon (25:59):

Yeah, it just started out in, it’s like water stained, but this is it. This is what I was doing. And I would tell myself, okay, I want to do, every month I want to try to do three or four images with poems attached to it. And it ended up being sort of a countdown to the birth and writing it to my unborn child, which was also kind of a building of maternal confidence and a little bit of bonding in utero. It was kind of, I call it the helicopter, in fact, I didn’t coin that, but the db T thing where you get outside of your own head and you look at it from multiple angles, and I’m not so embedded in the anxiety of it. And I was like, okay, this is time limited. Who do I want to share my story? And it just kind of made me feel hopeful. And I started to, I’ll read a couple of excerpts. This is the first one, and this is how I transformed my really intense insomnia. I was like, the days before I met you, I toss into an at night as thoughts of the unknown, give me quite a fright. So it’s very light, Dr. Seuss style, but it felt so helpful to kind of distill it to that and just I named it, but I also, it was me authoring my own narrative in that moment. This doesn’t have to be crisis trauma that I’m remembering forever. I’m making it kind of…

Dr. Sarah (27:22):

Right, of setting a tone. You’re sort of setting the tone of how do I want to relate to this part of what I’m experiencing.

Sharon (27:29):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah (27:29):

I can feel really stressed about and ruminate on my insomnia, and that could be something that I feel and experience as a really stressful and compounding thing. We know with insomnia, the more you think about it, the harder it

Sharon (27:46):

Is. The more you talk about all the things, the more you try, the less it works.

Dr. Sarah (27:50):

The more you get stuck in it. I’m curious too, I’m assuming you probably have lots to say on this, but the somatic element, like the physiological release that can happen when we can take something that’s stuck in us, we don’t have the words to explain it or we can’t consciously kind of organize it, but to put it out. And my guess is there’s like sometimes it’s, oh, I have this idea and I can get it out in an art form or a picture form or symbolic form. Sometimes I know there’s something and I don’t know what it is, but when I get it out, now it’s taking form and I can identify it better. But either way, those two processes, I have the idea and I’m putting it out, or I have the something I don’t know what it is and inputting it out. I realize what it is. That’s both very somatic release, I feel like.

Sharon (28:47):

Yes, I agree. And then there’s this empowering piece of it, which is not, so now it’s out. What can I do with this? I can actually play with this a little bit. It doesn’t have to be so scary and so serious now. And that’s where the book was so amazing because it became this fun passion project. And I finished it shortly before he was born, and I originally did a little self, those photo books that you can make. And then I decided kind of recently, because I published it recently, I felt like I was sort of pregnant with this process for a really long time. And I was like, it is time now that I’ve been working in the perinatal world for a while and I’m postpartum for my second, and I think I’m finished with that chapter. I want to birth this out in the world and I want to do something with my story.

(29:38):

So I think again, that was part of my healing as, and there’s a lot of the wounded healer component. So I wanted to share my story, but then I add this kind of interactive piece. I won’t give too many spoilers, but I just tried to give space or doodle your thoughts below. What do your days before look like? How would you start your story using this prompt the days before I met you? So literally creating a space to start to think about this. And then it kind of transitions into more creative reflecting prompts. These are not clinical art therapy, but certainly therapeutic. And they invite art, making, collage, drawing ways to symbolize and imagine and play in a way that I wish I had. I kind of had to create it on the fly. And once I did, I realized this is valuable and now it’s time to share this. So I see it as a tool.

(30:35):

It’s a little psychoeducation. It’s a little bit of just my own picture book, whether you want to read it to your child or first time pregnant parents. I have a lot of friends that have been gifting it to their pregnant friends, which is a lovely way to share. And I think it’s also just naming this idea of the birth of a parent, which I certainly didn’t coin that idea of trence, but honoring that and honoring the growing pains that come with it, and creating a space to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly instead of just the glossy photo shoot of the pregnant belly. Certainly so much more than that.

Dr. Sarah (31:12):

And I think that’s a big part of perinatal mental healthcare in general, which we could talk about too, is both things that are protective against postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, but also and parental burnout, but also things that maybe if you’ve had that experience to help understand it, to move through it, to help reflect back on it. Definitely. Obviously this sounds like a great thing for people who are expecting, but I could see a use case perhaps of looking backwards on your experience and using it to process and integrate something that maybe you haven’t fully finished doing that yet.

Sharon (31:59):

Good point. Because there’s really, I mean, certainly in our society there’s no space for that other than the trimesters and the medical markings, but the whole thing, I mean, it doesn’t work that way physiologically and spiritually. So absolutely, it’s encouraging that self-reflective piece and this idea of narrating your own story and trying to make meaning from those pieces and not just for baby, you know what I mean? That’s huge too. This isn’t, I think that’s what I hear all the time, and I’m sure you have too, of just as soon as baby was here, I was neglected. They stitched me up and that was it until my six week checkup or whatever they’ve changed it to now. So it’s still for you and to honor this process that you’re still in kind of forever, but not as acutely as in those early stages. And also just I think validating, but also I guess legitimizing is the same word, but I think there’s just something about really naming this time and wanting to market somehow beyond the photos that don’t quite capture it.

(33:15):

And I think it’s kind of neatly tied up because there’s not a hundred pages at the end. There’s just a little bit of space for you and maybe planting that seed to keep this self-reflective space for you throughout. Because I think once we morph into seasoned parents, I think we can lose ourselves in the caregiving role. We lose ourselves in serving the other. And that’s a huge part of I think, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, but also caregiver burnout, which is not yet a DSM diagnosis, but is certainly a sociopolitical issue that has become really exacerbated, I think since the pandemic and just more and more, at least I’m seeing it in my own world and also my practice.

Dr. Sarah (34:05):

Yeah, I see that too actually, it’s funny that you’re making me think of something that I often talk a lot about with my clients, because I work with a lot of parents. I also work with a lot of parents who have kids who have big feelings and big behaviors and can be just require a lot more intensive effort on the part of the parents. So we are more vulnerable to burnout because we happen to be parenting within a family system that requires just so much more of us.

(34:42):

And one of the things I will often do when I’m working with a parent or a couple is talk with them about, have them fill out a pie of all the different roles that they hold in their life and to think about what of those roles have gotten outsized in the course of becoming a parent. And parenting usually is a big piece of the pie. Work can sometimes still be a big piece of the pie, but usually friend, sibling, daughter, spouse, those roles get really diminished. And the one part that people don’t even think to put in their pie is this relationship and my role with myself. And one of the things that when we identify, okay, the self rule got really squished.

(35:48):

And we need to create more space to open that back up, one of the questions that I always prompt them with is, what do you do for play? How do you play? And they’ll always be like, well, I play with my kids and blah, blah. I’m like, no, no. How do you play? And I remind them that that can look different in adulthood than it does when your kids play. And oftentimes it’s like cooking, gardening, creating art. These are things that are play and there are hobbies and are fill up moments that are just for us. And they’re not about being productive producing or being outcome driven or correct. So that just made me think of that there’s so many ways that burnout is it’s chicken or egg. Is the burnout coming because we stopped playing or is the burnout keeping us from playing? But either way, I think play in art is a massive antidote to burnout.

Sharon (37:09):

Absolutely. I love everything you just said. I’ve been sitting on my hands so excited but mean. So caregiver burnout is another topic I’m so passionate about. And actually I partner with the Whitney Museum and New York City Health and Hospitals and their Art of Medicine program. So I also bring creative resilience workshops into hospitals for public hospital employees who most of them are caregivers themselves, but they’re also in professional caregiving, serving provider public facing roles. And we talk about creative resilience. And one thing I was thinking while you were speaking is how when we’re stressed, we’re working in a chronically stressful environment or even at home can be, I mean, parenting is enormously stressful.

Dr. Sarah (37:56):

Chronically stressful.

Sharon (37:57):

24/7. It activates our nervous system in a way that the cortisol is flowing, the adrenaline is flowing, it compromises our executive functioning ability. And one of the first things to go is our creative problem solving. It’s the first thing to go. So we forget, we literally forget our ability to think flexibly and to draw upon our play and that adaptive capacity. So these workshops literally set a stage for that first, I just kind of name that anytime we set aside for creative self, whatever that looks like, you mentioned the gardening or the cooking or maybe literal art making that’s great, is inherently you’re using self-compassion because you’re not trying to be perfect. You are building empathy for others and doing that at least in the workspace while you’re seeing like, oh, okay, they’re struggling too over there. That’s good. Or I get it, you are doing creative problem solving of just how am I going to make this work? How did I even show up to this? How am I going to get to my next thing on time? And with parenting that looks like how do I take care of myself and the other? That’s the ultimate dilemma always. You are also, what are some of the other ones? Reframing perspective just by looking at something from multiple angles. With the Whitney Museum, it’s amazing. We look at artwork that’s actually on display at the institutions.

Dr. Sarah (39:19):

Cool.

Sharon (39:21):

So it’s like how do we interpret this? What does it bring out in us? And also just kind of tapping into that artist self. And you said it’s the you and I would argue that the you is the artist, we’re all that. You know what I mean? It’s our creative, playful, multidimensional self that can’t really get boxed in this way or another. And yet that’s the one that is the first one to get squashed probably because it is so flexible and adaptive, but then we forget to kind nurture it again and make space for it again. And really just owning that, yes, I’m an artist. And then of course there’s the kind of sublimation, just the kinesthetic feel good, get it out property that all art making provides. And that is kind of creative resilience, skill building that we all can access, whether it’s journaling at home or at the space in the hospital setting.

(40:15):

And you’re talking about it with clay, I would say any opportunity that makes you a little bit out of your comfort zone makes you, but you’re not self-conscious because you’re just fully in whatever you’re doing. Some people call that flow, however you want to look at that. Maybe there’s a little element of experimentation in there. So it’s like that healthy risk taking. And then of course, just the joy and the pleasure of it. That’s it. So experimenting, playing, being curious, create all of that. Those are the antidotes to caregiver burnout. If only in our society we could bottle that up, commodify it and send it out, or just make national holidays once a week for that. We wouldn’t have an issue around this. But that’s it. That’s it. And really just protecting that and just making sure this is beyond the bubble bath. This is like, I call it self preservation. This is survival. This is a lifeblood.

Dr. Sarah (41:18):

It is. And it’s work. And I think that’s one of the tricky things too, because when you have burnout, I find that burnout also, people when they get a break, they just want to shut off. We are going from this full pendulum swing in one direction of totally over on.

Sharon (41:40):

Yup.

Dr. Sarah (41:40):

Overly on. So then we want to turn in an equal opposite direction and to go completely off.

Sharon (41:45):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah (41:46):

And so we scroll on our phones or we take a nap or we naps are good, but not that’s kind of nap. I’m just out. You avoid and escaping. Exactly. Or I just going out and stare into space, or I bury myself in another productive task. But the real true rest that is restorative, that is the kind of thing you are talking about is kind. It’s not free of energy output, but it’s energy output that gives back. And so I think we have to kind of be willing to trust that this is going to be a bit of a hurdle to just jump over for a second. Just you have to actually turn the key in the ignition and turn it on and ignite that engine. But when you start practicing that regularly, you realize that one, it feels great, but it is also energy output that is equally energy regenerative.

Sharon (42:38):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah (42:38):

So you get out of the burnout.

Sharon (42:40):

Exactly. But that’s such a good point. But you got to invest a little bit in to get it going. And that’s often the very first barrier it feels like, ugh, just another thing. Or for the perinatal population, they’re like, I just did the ultimate creative act and now you want me to get creative. But it is, this is exactly it. It’s energizing once we can get there.

Dr. Sarah (43:02):

Yes. So my last question then is if people are listening and they’re like, okay, I buy it, I want to start doing this, but I do feel that like, oh, I really just want to zone out when I have a break and I find it really hard to kind of start. What re some things that you’ve found have been helpful for the people that you work with to get started in some of these creative resilience skill building exercises or just life practices?

Sharon (43:30):

I think I start really small and kind of intuitive. What are you already doing or not doing? That’s just feeling, when is a space where you’re feeling relatively calm and you’re still awake and maybe not fully plugged into stuff. I have a client that told me it’s when she’s doing volleyball, she loves that back and forth, whatever that is, keeps her fully present and engaged. And so we were like, okay, how do we create, I think she called it peppering, it’s called, I dunno if there’s a real name for that, but how do we find more opportunities to pepper in your life where you get to be fully present in that back forth relational flow? Or for me, I’ll just share mine. I don’t have a lot of space for just full out art making. So I find what I’m already doing and works for my lifestyle and I just kind of amplify that.

(44:24):

And for me, that’s my curated playlists based on my feelings that I love to do every month and listen to them all through the month. And I do it with my exercising. I send them out to all my friends, and it’s a way that I stay connected to myself and others and my, I give it a little cool title and a cool image and I theme it. And I think it’s also just sort of recognizing the creative acts that we’re already doing and honoring them as our thing. And it could look like the new recipe or the cute little outfit for the photo shoot. It can also have a secondary gain of being for someone else or a greater the meal for the family. But I think of honing in on the joy and the things we’re already doing in our day-to-day, and then seeing if we can amplify that and set out more space for that. And sometimes that does look like trying a new dance class or putting, I have some clients that do dream journals, they love that, that they just have at their bedside and they scribble a little bit about their dream when they wake up in the morning. And that’s just kind of starting to train the muscle a little bit. And then it is that natural physiological, addictive component where it’s like, this feels good. I naturally am starting to crave it and do it more.

Dr. Sarah (45:46):

Yeah, and I love that it can be art, it could be anything. It’s the act of creating something, generating something new that feels interesting and makes us curious and excited and joyful.

Sharon (46:04):

Pleasure, curiosity, that’s it. And staying within that realm. I think that’s also it when there’s perfectionists involved. And I do work with a lot of recovering perfectionists, myself included. It’s sort of like, if it’s not perfect or amazing or on display at the Whitney, I’m not going to do it at all. And it’s like, no, just start anywhere for the pure process of doing it right. And yeah, that’s how we do it.

Dr. Sarah (46:31):

I love it. If people want to get your book, follow your work, perhaps even take one of your workshops or work with you professionally, how can they connect with you? Where can we send them?

Sharon (46:42):

So my website is cocreatearttherapy. It’s all one word. That’s also my Instagram handle. I try to be somewhat active on there. The book is The Days Before I Met You available on Amazon. The workshops, I think the best way to find out about them are on the website. For now, they’re kind of purely in the hospital settings, but I do sometimes do online or in person. But yeah, I’m here in New York City. You can email me Sharon@cocreatearttherapy.com. And I want to thank you, Sarah for having me and all of the listeners for listening today. I hope that this felt kind of inspiring to kind of pick up your own creative practice and reconnect with yourself.

Dr. Sarah (47:25):

I love that. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. I talking to you about this. So thank you.

Sharon (47:31):

Thank you.

Dr. Sarah (47:38):

I hope you enjoyed this conversation and that it offered you a fresh perspective on how creativity, expression and playfulness can be powerful tools for your mental health. If you’re interested in exploring more mental health resources, whether that’s traditional talk therapy, play therapy, somatic work, or more, you can go to the episode description wherever you’re streaming this podcast and get a link to check out my group therapy, practice Upshur Bren Psychology Group. We offer therapeutic services in New York state and virtual coaching nationwide. And our multidisciplinary team of clinicians use evidence-based integrative approaches to create personalized support plans for individuals, couples, children, and families that go beyond just treating symptoms and address the root causes of challenges to support emotional growth, strengthen relationships, and foster lasting resilience. To learn more about our services, visit our website@upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. There you can schedule a free 30 minute consultation call and we can offer you recommendations and guidance on supportive resources that best align with your unique needs. So thank you for listening and don’t be a stranger.