Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. We are back with Beyond the Sessions segment of the Securely Attached podcast, and we’re going to answer a listener question and we have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg to weigh in. Welcome.

Dr. Rebecca (00:55):

Yay. Thank you. I’m delighted to be here, as always.

Dr. Sarah (00:59):

I know this question is going to bring you back to the early days. Ready?

Dr. Rebecca (01:04):

Oh man, what do we got?

Dr. Sarah (01:07):

Hello. I am a stay-at-home mom to my 17 month old daughter. I was originally going to let her ween at her own pace, but she is in love with the boob, so much so that she does not eat solids. This wouldn’t be that big of an issue to me, but she was a little low in iron at nine months and had to go on a supplement which had not so great side effects for her diarrhea, upset stomach, and even less of an appetite. She’s been able to be off the iron drops since 12 months, but I fear her becoming anemic again. She likes some foods but only nibbles and has never had more than a couple of bites at meal times and half the time won’t even touch her food. We’ve been working with early intervention for a couple of months now, and the OT is very kindly suggesting that cutting back on breastfeeding is the only answer because it seems like we have literally tried everything else. So for now, the goal is to daytime wean and still let her have all the boobies she wants at night. So I was wondering if you have any tips for weaning a girl that always knows exactly what she wants that won’t take a bottle or pacifier while trying to maintain that secure attachment? Thank you so much. I remember the weaning.

Dr. Rebecca (02:12):

Yup. Brings me back.

Dr. Sarah (02:13):

Yeah, right. I probably had all the same questions as this parent. I feel like most people do. Obviously the context for how she’s getting to the point of weaning is somewhat specific, but anytime a parent weans, I feel like this is the question that I get. How do I do it?

Dr. Rebecca (02:31):

Yeah. And weaning is hard.

Dr. Sarah (02:32):

They’re not going to be happy with me and I’m scared it’s going to impact the attachment. And I think at least I can feel very confident in saying that we can separate those two pieces. How do I wean and how do I tolerate the fact that my kid is going to be really not happy with me is let’s put that in one category. The other piece, will this impact my kid’s attachment with me? I can confidently say that’s probably not the question that needs to be asked here. You’re good, you’re good. Your kid can be very mad at you for taking away something that they are very attached to and still have a very solid attachment to you.

Dr. Rebecca (03:15):

There are plenty of people in the world today who did not breastfeed or as a child did not go to the boob or were not fed from the poop or were fed from the boob but had to stop before they wanted to who very, who grew up very secure attachment. There’s a total non correlation between babies or toddlers who self weaned from the boob and secure attachment. There’s no data that supports that. Those two things are highly correlated. So that’s not the question. And I feel like we’re being very much more strident about this than usual, and I can at least speak for myself to say that I feel like there’s some really damaging messaging that’s been put out there about this. And when I’m speaking, I’m not angry at this reader or listen, I’m not angry at this if I sound angry because I just think moms have been done a terrible disservice by some of this messaging that has conflated breastfeeding and how we wean with secure attachment when the fact is they are not related.

Dr. Sarah (04:28):

Yes. I really, because I think, and just to break those two things up, there’s the issue that breastfeeding in and of itself has been inappropriately conflated with its secure attachment. This is the only way not true. We have tons and tons of data to support that. But the other piece is that weaning…

Dr. Rebecca (04:52):

Right, how you stop breastfeeding.

Dr. Sarah (04:52):

That they must self wean. Or if you are going to basically, I mean this is akin to saying if I piss my kid off, I will damage the attachment relationship. And we definitely, we do not want to hold that idea in our head because that’s going to really get in our way as parents for time and time and time again. Because guess what? We are going to piss our kids off a lot in the service of protecting our relationship with them and keeping them safe and healthy and all the things. And even more so when you have a strong-willed kid, when you have that kid that knows exactly what they want, I speak from very personal experience with this, you are going to be the object of their rage so much more than you want to be. And you can still absolutely have a secure attachment that feels super important to just state off the bat. But the weeding, legit, legit. Important question. And there are Ji important question there. Lots of things we could talk about in terms of, like…

Dr. Rebecca (06:03):

Well, and I just want to say also I feel like there’s in this question, and that’s fine. Everyone decides to wean when they want to wean and how they want to wean. But I just want to say that even if there hadn’t been an iron issue, it’s okay to decide you want to wean this mom said because the kid isn’t eating solids and she says, that’s not a problem for me other than this iron thing. If that’s authentic and genuine, great. And it’s also okay if is you’re another mom out there whose kid doesn’t have an iron deficiency, but they’re not eating solids and you’re really ready for them to eat solids. It’s okay to stop breastfeeding. It’s okay to stop breastfeeding for whatever reason you want to stop breastfeeding. Period.

Dr. Sarah (06:47):

Even if your child doesn’t want to, because gosh, it also makes a lot of sense. I mean it’s interesting. Every kid is going to be so different. I wanted to keep breastfeeding my first and he was done at 11 months and I was so sad. I was like, oh, I feel rejected by you. But that was my stuff to work out. And then my daughter, I mean I breastfed for a long time. I breastfed her until she was two and a half and I was the one that was like, I am done, we’re done. And at two and a half, I think she was really ready for that. But if she wasn’t, I still would’ve been done and I would’ve needed to deal with that. And it was still difficult for her because she’d had two and a half years of that being her normal, and that was a long time for her to get used to that. And this is 17 months that this mom is talking about 17 months is a really long time for a child to have known this as their primary thing. And so to take it off of their plate quite literally is going to be a big transition for them because it’s not like they have a comparative experience to be like, well, I survived this once I can handle it.

Dr. Rebecca (08:06):

They also want things that they like and that feel good. She may also want to hold a knife and crawl into the fireplace.

Dr. Sarah (08:18):

Because both things feel good, right?

Dr. Rebecca (08:20):

But, well they may in the moment feel good until you do them. But that’s kind of my point.

Dr. Sarah (08:24):

Because it scratches a curiosity maybe.

Dr. Rebecca (08:28):

Well, I guess I’m going back to my own breastfeeding experience, which I think is hard not to in these moments. So I stopped breastfeeding my first when he was 15 months because I was pregnant with my second and I, I didn’t want it to seem like my belly got too big to breastfeed and I certainly didn’t want to breastfeed in tandem, which some people do, which is great, but I didn’t want to. And so I stopped my second one. I weaned at 21 months and it was because he was not sleep. He was waking up at five in the morning every morning to breastfeed and it wasn’t good for him. He didn’t know how to say to me, mom, I think at this point I really need my sleep more than I need the breast milk. That’s sort of what I mean with my perhaps silly analogies. But he doesn’t know the value of sleep. He doesn’t know how cranky feels.

Dr. Sarah (09:24):

I think you’re talking like delayed gratification or prioritizing their needs. He might be in the long run, he needs the sleep, but in the immediate moment he’s saying, I want the boob and I want it now.

Dr. Rebecca (09:39):

But also he doesn’t know he needs this. I guess there’s a part of me that’s saying, and I’m resisting saying it because it sounds so old fashioned, but I’m just going to say it. You’re the parent. You actually may well know what they need better than they do, and that’s because you’ve been on the planet for however many decades and you understand what’s safe, what’s not safe, what’s healthy, what’s not healthy. And I am hugely, I mean, hello, witness, this podcast witnessed my career. I’m hugely into attunement and respecting kids and kids are their own people and whatever. And at the end of the day, it’s a decision for you to make, not only because it’s your boos, but also because you’re the grownup and you understand the context and how these other factors fit in.

Dr. Sarah (10:25):

Totally. And I got to say in this mom’s defense, I think we’re answering this question for this mom and also for all the moms ever, because I’ve gotten this question so many times. That’s how we roll. We have, because all the moms ever are definitely listening to this podcast right now. And if they’re not, send it to your mom friends because they should. But truthfully, back to my point of defending this mom, I think she’s actually really come to terms with maybe any ambivalence she’s had about like, oh, I don’t know what’s best for them. They want this. She’s like, this mom has done her homework and has been working for a while on trying to figure out what’s the right balance of continuing to prioritize breastfeeding. Maybe that’s what I want and also what my kid wants. And also figuring out what’s best for their health and their growth and their development and all that.

(11:16):

And has come now after a number of iterations to the answer that she sounds, she feels okay about this is it. We are here, we have a goal, we have a plan, we’ve tried everything else and this feels like the right next step for us. But I’m a little scared that my kid’s going to get really pissed at me and what do I do about that? So maybe we should also, I think it was really important to lay that foundation that we just laid, especially if there are parents that haven’t gotten to that place of feeling comfortable with their decision and feel like they need a little support and feeling good about making that move. But I also think it’d be helpful to talk about some really brass tack strategies for one, weaning specifically and weaning kind of a toddler who can have, I mean, we can leverage language a lot more than we can with an infant, but also for helping a child build the stress tolerance. Because that’s also I think what this parent is asking about because that’s what’s going to happen when this kid, Wes, they’re going to get distressed and they have to learn to tolerate that distress.

Dr. Rebecca (12:26):

Especially because when they’re stressed, they may not eat. So there’s often a lag period between when you wean and when your child starts eating solids. And that’s tremendously difficult to tolerate, even just on a biological level because you are programmed to want to grow your kids.

Dr. Sarah (12:42):

Especially if there’s any anxiety about their health and anemia and all this stuff. It’s going to be exacerbated by that.

Dr. Rebecca (12:46):

So, watching them not eat and scream and yell and want the boob. It’s like what kind of mom wouldn’t be tempted to give the boob? It’s like, oh my God, well, what if she doesn’t eat and then isn’t healthy?

Dr. Sarah (13:00):

So some of our own stress tolerance too, as we get anxious now.

Dr. Rebecca (13:03):

Their own distress tolerance, and it’s a special brand of tolerating kids to stress tolerance where they starve themselves. I mean, not literally, but it’s not just like, oh, I’m not letting them turn on the tv. It’s like your own distress tolerance is actually intertwined with concern about their health in a seemingly legit way. Although all the pediatricians I’ve talked to have said it’s not actually legit. But of course it feels legit.

Dr. Sarah (13:30):

Of course. And I think that’s one helpful thing. And I’m hopeful that this parent’s pediatricians and maybe OT also is walking them through some of this stuff. But one to summarize what you were just saying in an action item is be prepared for at the beginning, the intensity of the distress, the intensity, duration and frequency of distress moments to be higher. And for that to sometimes get in the way of this other goal of getting them to eat solids or getting them to have enough nutrients in the day. And one thing that I think is helpful is to remember that our kids, their nutrition’s going to come in the aggregate, zoom out, don’t look at each meal, don’t look at how much they eat or don’t eat in each meal. Look at how much they’re eating each day or look at how much they’re eating each week in the beginning because mealtimes might get interrupted by dysregulation in protest or distress about not getting what they’re wanting, which is food instead of the food. Am I making sense when I say that?

Dr. Rebecca (14:42):

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I just want to, did you say ot?

Dr. Sarah (14:46):

Yeah, they’re working with an OT who it says they’ve been doing early intervention for a couple months, and the OT is very kindly suggesting that cutting back…

Dr. Rebecca (14:57):

I’m sorry, missed that.

Dr. Sarah (14:58):

…is the only answer.

Dr. Rebecca (14:58):

I forgot that part. Sorry, I just forgot that. And I was like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah. No, I think what you’re saying absolutely makes sense. And again, and I wouldn’t say to start thinking in the beginning day by day, I would say week, get the smallest increment. There may be a day your child doesn’t eat and it’s going to be horrible.

(15:15):

And it doesn’t mean it’s not working and that you’re not doing the right thing. And that’s just like you have to sort of hold onto that and you need to know it’s the right thing to do and you’re holding onto the long-term gain. I often give when it comes to setting these kinds of limits with toddlers, the analogy I give is your 14-year-old is like, I’m going to start smoking or I’m going to start vaping. And you’re like, not in a million years because you feel so confident about the health detriments of it. And they scream and yell and curse. And do you say like, okay, fine, okay, okay, you can vape. No parents look at me. It’s like, that would be crazy, right? Because the health is so clear, the health, it’s like this is that sort of a thing. You have to just hold on to this is your future teenager screaming, yelling, cursing, saying, can I please do this thing that isn’t in my best interest? Because it’s incredibly tempting right now and I just want to do it and I just want to do it. And just saying and being empathic. I know it’s so hard, honey, it’s so hard. I get it. And wear a turtleneck.

Dr. Sarah (16:35):

Yeah, that’s also definitely wear a turtleneck. Definitely wear a turtle turtleneck one. Ideally don’t wave it in their face.

Dr. Rebecca (16:44):

Walk around with honey Cheerios. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (16:50):

Distraction.

Dr. Rebecca (16:52):

Go whenever, pull for it.

Dr. Sarah (16:55):

So I almost feel like I’m pulling upon both space strategies, like supportive parenting for anxious childhood emotions. Right now I want to pull in space strategies. So one, I want a parent to, especially because this is a toddler, so like I was saying before, we can leverage language. Let’s use that. I would prepare them ahead of time for the change that’s going to happen. I’d be really clear about changing one thing at a time and helping them anticipate what we’re changing. So this is daytime weaning, right? This is that. That was their plan. So to be like, Hey hun, we’re going to be doing something different now because you’re at a place where you’re old enough now for you to handle this. We know you can handle this and you’re ready. And so we are going to start doing something a little different. We aren’t going to be doing milk in the daytime booby in the day, whatever you call it, right? We’re just going to do that at nighttime. And in the daytime we’re going to focus on other things, water, milk, food bottle, sippy cup, whatever, not from the body.

(18:11):

And it might be hard and you know can handle it. And even in very space language, there’s usually some like this isn’t a punishment, you haven’t done anything wrong. It’s just we know this is something you can handle and it’s time. But I don’t know if you have to go that deep, but something you could throw out if you’re worried that your kid is going to perceive this in some way as like you withholding something, they did something bad. We know that 17 months old are very egocentric and they tend to sort of like if something’s happen.

Dr. Rebecca (18:46):

I would be slightly worried that this mom or other moms might misinterpret what you just said. By all means leverage language. But also this isn’t actually about the talking. You do not have to keep talking about this. You don’t have to have in endless conversations. There’s still 17 months, I would actually argue you can do it much shorter. No more milk in the day, no more booby day booby at night. We’re going to have booby at night. The kid is a 17. They’re not going to say why. You could say, and the kid might not even really know what you’re talking about until later in the day when they go for your boob. And then you say, no.

Dr. Sarah (19:28):

I do think preparing them though, letting them know something’s going to be different and this is what you can expect. And you’re right. I think more, less is way more in this situation, but not just changing things and then seeing.

Dr. Rebecca (19:47):

Right? But prepping in a sentence or two, and I’m sure there’s making a little book before, but there may be a little book.

Dr. Sarah (19:56):

Not a lot of runway.

Dr. Rebecca (19:59):

Not a lot of runway, and not a lot of…

Dr. Sarah (20:01):

Starting tomorrow. This is what the plan is going to be.

Dr. Rebecca (20:03):

Right.

Dr. Sarah (20:06):

So that’s one thing. And then the other thing I was thinking about that might be helpful to pull on are strategies from AIT or feeding challenges where it’s like make sure that each meal has at least one very safe, familiar item. If they’re struggling to eat solids and they’re not really engaging with food at mealtimes, but they love to, your example, maybe they just love honey nut Cheerios, like serve whatever, serve the cucumbers and the blueberries and the cut up Turkey and throw some honey nut Cheerios in that plate. It’s totally okay to keep, especially in this beginning where we’re really wanting to just make sure that there’s enough calories to supplement the lack of breast milk and the avoidance of eating that might come from either picky child or an upset child. It’s totally okay if all they end up eating, I’d offer them all the foods that you want to offer them. But if all they end up eating is the honey nut cheerios for five days, that’s also totally okay. And then once you pass the hurdle of the frustration over the weaning, my guess is the pallet’s going to expand if you keep offering the foods, that goes back to this idea of what’s our job in food with food and what’s not our job. It’s our job to decide what gets served when it gets served. And then it’s our child’s job to decide how much to eat.

Dr. Rebecca (21:47):

And where.

Dr. Sarah (21:48):

Yes, like the environment, what time is…

Dr. Rebecca (21:51):

What, when and where.

Dr. Sarah (21:52):

What, when and where. And then it’s our job for our child to decide what of what we offered them. They do eat, how much of it they eat and when they’re full. And that’s it. And if you follow that framework for this too, I think that that’s a good place to start because I don’t want you to tackle multiple things at once. I don’t want you to have to tackle weaning and picky eating at once. Let’s just tackle weaning and not be prioritizing building their palette right now. Let’s just get them sustenance. And then once the transition off the weaning has become more palatable, tolerable, and they’ve showing more acceptance of this reality, then we can tackle expanding what they are being exposed to and maybe helping them stretch eating habits. But I like to separate the challenges into one at a time.

Dr. Rebecca (22:57):

A hundred percent. I agree with everything you just said. I don’t even have to add anything other than to say, you can do this. It’s hard and you can do it and your baby can do it, and you can do it. And it’s like the next developmental milestone, not milestone. What of my task that as a twosome, as a dyad you guys can get through.

Dr. Sarah (23:25):

Which will be fantastic for your secure attachment, right? Don’t worry about that. This is in going through these challenging moments together, your attachment’s going to grow because that’s what attachment is about, is knowing that I have someone with me in hard moments, not that I don’t have hard moments.

Dr. Rebecca (23:46):

And someone I can get really, really, really mad at, and they stick around and they still protect me in the ways that I need, not just the ways that I want.

Dr. Sarah (23:57):

Love it. Good luck. Good luck.

Dr. Rebecca (24:00):

Again, turtleneck sweater. Turtleneck sweater. I know it’s warm outside. Air conditioning and turtleneck sweater.

Dr. Sarah (24:07):

Yes. All right, God. Speed. You got this.

Dr. Rebecca (24:11):

You got this.

Dr. Sarah (24:13):

Talk soon.

Dr. Rebecca (24:13):

Always a pleasure. Thank you, Sarah.

Dr. Sarah (24:15):

Yes, always.

(24:16):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.