385. Q&A: How can I encourage sibling empathy without making them responsible for each other’s feelings?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back to the Beyond the Session segment of the Securely Attached podcast. We’re going to answer a listener question today with Dr. Emily Upshur. Hi Emily.

Dr. Emily Upshur (00:51):

Hi. Hi.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:53):

So this parent writes in, where is the line between teaching kids to be caring siblings and putting too much responsibility on them? The other day, my baby started crying and my mom, her grandmother said to my older child, oh no, the baby is crying. What can you do to make her feel better? And I had this huge reaction in my body. I blurted out something like It’s not her job to make her sister happy. And afterwards I was like, wow, that came out strong. I love this parent already.

Dr. Emily Upshur (01:23):

I love this person already.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:24):

I know. I’m like, I love you. So yes, okay, nothing shines. So then she continues. She goes, nothing shines a spotlight on our past or our triggers like parenthood, LOL. Amen. She didn’t say Amen. I just said, and clearly this is a sore spot for me that I didn’t even realize was there. Seeing as this is a trigger for me, I want to be intentional about not repeating the same dynamic with my girls, but I also don’t want to swing so far the other way that they miss out on learning empathy or how to be carrying siblings. Any advice on how to find that balance? How do I avoid parenty my older child while still nurturing empathy, connection and healthy sibling relationships? Ooh.

Dr. Emily Upshur (02:00):

It’s so good.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:01):

Can we pass out an award for my favorite question of the year? First, it’s just the way this person writes. Clearly. They’re a writer. I know, introspective, and I appreciate that. I love that. So one, chances are truthfully though, chances are the fact that you not only have insight to ask the question, but the amount of reflective functioning. And we could talk about what reflective functioning is, because I think it’s going to be important to answer this question, but the amount of reflective functioning present in this question says that you’re probably modeling a tremendous amount of the things that will teach your child empathy, connection, and healthy sibling relationships. So you’re already cooking with butter, if that is helpful for you to know.

Dr. Emily Upshur (02:47):

And I love that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:49):

Emily, do you want to define reflective functioning just in case this reader doesn’t know that they’re already doing it?

Dr. Emily Upshur (02:52):

Oh yeah, sure. So it was all in my brain about my staunch position on this reflective functioning. So the way I always explain reflective functioning is imagining what the other person is thinking or feeling and being curious as to why they feel that way. Like, huh, I wonder what’s going on for them. And I always give these examples because I think it illustrates it, but it’s the ability to see that somebody, it’s like attunement. It’s interpersonal attunement, right? The ability to see that something is sort of off or different with somebody, and then be curious as to why and try to figure it out a little before. Ideally you interact with them. It’s in a split second. It’s a really high intensity task, actually. So I think we talk about it as if it’s one of our goals in therapy a lot, but the way it happens is really hard to break down. And so I think this person, what you’re describing already sort of has that capacity.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:53):

And it’s for the other. There’s self reflective functioning of another person, but then there’s of the self, and even in this question, she’s literally like, I noticed I did this. And then I got curious, why did I do this? Huh? Why is this triggering me so much? That is reflective functioning of the self in action, which means, and she’s also reflecting on what her child is experiencing and getting curious about why. So I just think that’s important. And then to actually answer her question, I know I was like, it is interesting because she’s asking two different things. I think one is how do I avoid parenty a child and nurturing empathy, connection and healthy sibling relationships? And are they, but also started say, are they mutually exclusive, right? Can I allow my child to comfort? Can I encourage my child to comfort their sibling and build that empathy, connection and healthy sibling relationship without that being a parentification? Can I encourage that, but also not make them feel like they’re owning the responsibility of taking care of their sibling? And I do think there’s a world in which they’re not mutually exclusive. You can do both of those things.

Dr. Emily Upshur (05:24):

Well, I actually think by doing one, it begets the other. So I actually have a pretty strong opinion that children shouldn’t be made to take care of adults, certainly, or even their siblings in terms of a demand. So the question, how this question was laid out is really illustrative. I think what triggered this mom was that the grandparent I believe in, the question was, what are you going to do to make your sibling feel better? Which is very different than like, Ooh, your sibling is feeling they’re having a hard time. What can we do to, is there anything? There’s a demand in it that I think it does make those things mutually exclusive. I think you’re right, both things can happen. But I do think that obligatory piece of it, who owns that role and who is kind of responsible for that have, if we relieve that from our children, they’re much more likely to develop Empathy is I guess how I’m articulating that. I think the relief of the obligation, the demand, and coming from an extrinsic out external source rather than being intrinsically motivated is in itself going to be the answer to that. So I think that’s a really important piece of this.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:48):

And I think overt, commanding or directing a kid to take care of the feelings of another child is one way that shows up. But I also think implicit. Implicit suggesting, because I think a lot of times, even in the way this person worded what the grandmother said, she’s like, oh no, the baby’s crying. What can you do to make her feel better? Isn’t saying you need to make your sister feel better, go pick her up and shush her. And it’s saying, it’s offering it as a question. But there is a little, and again, I’m sure this grandparent has the best possible intentions here. And I probably have said this a thousand times to my kids for the record, but I do hear though, what can you do to make her feel better? Could be an implicitly leading, there could be some implicit leading kind of communication in there that is on you to do that. I don’t know that. I also think how you say something really changes how it’s experienced by a child. So I think this is very gray. This particular quote that I also to the mom writing in this question.

(08:03):

I also want to take a little pressure off you to correct this. I also think this is fine. And it’s also coming from a grandma, and I feel very strongly that just keep your side of the street clean parents and you’re with your kids so many more, million hours more. And even if you have extended family that takes a lot of care of your kid, you still have the biggest impact and the biggest weight, even if you only teach them this a little bit, it weighs more than what grandma says. Sorry, grandmas. It’s just true.

Dr. Emily Upshur (08:41):

But I also think to your point though, what this parent seems to believe in her body is that her daughter doesn’t have to take care of her siblings. And so that will translate in nonverbal. And just knowing and being like, that’s okay. I feel grounded in that value. That’s a value of mine. And I want to just name that there are a lot of different cultural elements of this. So it gets very complicated. But I think that it’s really important to say there’s nuance there. But for this parent, they believe it is the grownup’s responsibility and that’s their value. And they can imbue that. Whether they say it out loud or not. I want to be really clear as well. I think you could easily let this lie, but you’re registering it. And I like that this mom is being thoughtful about how I want my children to be responsible for their feelings, or she’s probably extrapolating this child experience to her experience and in terms of who takes care of who and what in that sort of order. And I think it’s really thoughtful to think of it in that manner.

Dr. Sarah Bren (09:52):

Yeah, spoken like a true psychodynamic relational psychologist, Emily, you are very appropriately considering the deeper, well, why is this triggering, right? What’s the history there? Maybe there is stuff from our own childhood that gets kicked up when a grandparent says something to our child because maybe that matches a little too closely with the experience we had as a child. Maybe we did feel like we were sort of either implicitly or explicitly made to feel responsible for being the family peacekeeper or managing everyone’s emotions or carrying that burden or being parentified. And so if that’s there, oh, it makes so much sense that this would feel, whoa, that bubbled up real big. Whoa. And so there’s definitely space too to just be gentle with yourself about that and maybe even process it somewhere with someone or yourself. But I think it is these intergenerational things come up in parenthood a lot because we carry them and then they get played out in the next generation where the grandmother is now communicating with the grandchild and the mother who’s holding stuff from when she was the child. It’s all in the room, ghosts in the nursery, as they say.

Dr. Emily Upshur (11:29):

No, I love that. And I think the other piece that maybe this mom is picking up on is, or maybe I’m just picking up on it, is like how do you foster empathy and close relationships with your children amongst themselves? And that sounds like this person is thinking about that. I want to do that, but I don’t want to over push that. Or even at these young ages, is really thinking through how to have close relationships with your siblings. And I really do believe that that comes from being steady in your confidence that they’re going to be able to represent themselves. And I think that gives, it’s actually an open hand to empathy amongst kids.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:16):

I also think there’s this other piece, we sort of touched on it, but there’s how do I talk to my mom or my mother-in-law perhaps about if they say something that doesn’t land for me, how do I deal with that? Right? Or if they say something that doesn’t align with the value that I want my child to be, to experience in their upbringing, how do I deal with that? And I do think there’s certainly situations where we just have to have an external boundary. If it’s a big enough problem and it’s chronic and it’s not avoidable, sometimes we have to say, Ooh, this isn’t, I really like it if you said it differently. Here’s my value. Here’s our thinking behind it. Benefit of the doubt. There’s all the things to say effective communication, but sometimes we just have to say, please don’t do it that way.

(13:27):

But also sometimes it’s not worth that conflict. And we can also talk to our kid about it later. We can close the loop with our child in another moment and just help them make sense of it. Like, Hey, I heard grandma said this thing this way. How did that land for you? And do you have any questions? I want you to know if you ever feel like you have to take care of your brothers sister’s feelings, that’s my job, actually. So you don’t have to worry about that. And it’s okay if grandma sometimes thinks that that’s important, and I just want you to know where I stand and what I expect from you. It depends on the age of your kid and all that stuff. But I think there’s a way to help your child make sense of where there’s discrepancies and what’s being communicated to them without tarnishing their relationship with the grandparent or anything. I think there’s ways to really just kind of, let’s just close the loop on this so everyone’s on the same page. Name what I’m seeing and how I want to just make sure you are hearing from me how I feel about the situation and what I want you to hold and not have to hold.

Dr. Emily Upshur (14:44):

I love that, and I love that, especially for older kids who can really reflect back on that, maybe have competing feelings about different family members giving input on their lives. And I think that’s a really nice way to circle back to what are our family values? What do we want to take away from these things?

Dr. Sarah Bren (15:06):

And to feel comforted knowing and permission to just be like, I get to set those and I don’t have to make everyone in my extended family be in alignment with them and in compliance with them either for them to still work for my family and for my kids. Your kids will get it. And they also understand that different people are going to have different expectations of them sometimes, but that doesn’t mean that their values have to change. Kids do get that, I believe.

Dr. Emily Upshur (15:36):

Well, that’s that reflective functioning again, you just did it. You just did it. My kid will be able to get it. That’s reflective functioning.

Dr. Sarah Bren (15:44):

Yes, yes. But one last sort of section to her question that I want to address before we close out is just generally, how do we support building empathy, connection and healthy sibling relationships among our children? We do want to do that. And sometimes it might look like asking them to reflect on the other person’s experience. So truthfully, and I really didn’t plan this, but to come very full circle, you do that by building reflective functioning in your child. So how do you build that skill? You at age appropriate ways, invite them to reflect on, I wonder how they’re feeling like this grandma saying, oh no, the baby’s crying. What can you do to make her feel better? The only ever so slightest tweak I might make to that, to turn into a reflective functioning exercise was like, oh, the baby is crying. I wonder, how do you think they’re feeling right now?

Dr. Emily Upshur (16:44):

Yeah, I wonder what, she needs.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:45):

Is there anything that might make them feel better? What could we do? We being a nice way to say we’re sharing this. It’s not on you, but there is a curiosity of the internal experience of the sibling and an interest in understanding why might they be feeling this way, and how might we have the capacity to shift that agency to affect change in another person’s experience? Like these are the building blocks and the most important foundation on which one builds the capacity for empathy and healthy sibling relationships will flow from that.

Dr. Emily Upshur (17:29):

Yeah, I love that. I think it’s absolutely right. You do it. You have curiosity about yourself and your own reactions. You have curiosity about others and their reactions, and that begets empathy.

Dr. Sarah Bren (17:40):

Yeah. Yeah. Love this question. Thank you for writing it in. Really appreciate it. And if you guys enjoyed this, if you got something out of it, send us in your questions. And then of course, please subscribe to the podcast, follow us or rate it and send it to friends because it really helps the show find more listeners and help more families. And that’s what we’re all here for. So thank you so much. Bye Em.

Dr. Emily Upshur (18:10):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah Bren (18:12):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.