392. The dopamine trap: Why screens and ultra-processed foods keep kids wanting more (but never satisfied) with Michaeleen Doucleff

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:00:00):

Slot machine gamblers actually stop wanting to win. They don’t want to win because winning stops the chase. And I think that our kids, we end up in similar cycles with social media and video games where we’re just in these loops of chasing.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:00:20):

As humans, dopamine drives us to explore, create, and grow. But in today’s modern world, that biological drive is being exploited to keep us wanting more, more, more. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two, and the host of the Securely Attached podcast. Each week, I sit down with leading experts in psychology, neuroscience, medicine, and child development to translate complex science into practical grounded parenting insights that you can actually use in daily life. This week, I’m joined by science journalist and bestselling author, Michaeleen Doucleff. Her new book, Dopamine Kids, explores what’s really happening in our children’s brains when it comes to screens, social media, ultra-processed foods, and overstimulation. In this conversation, we break down what dopamine actually does in the brain and why it’s not simply the pleasure chemical that it’s so often simplified to be. We talk about how technology and food environments are carefully engineered to tap into our seeking systems. Why that can lead both kids and adults to feel restless and unsatisfied, and what it means to restore the natural cycle of motivation and fulfillment. Most importantly, we explore small, sustainable shifts that you can make in your home, not massive overhauls, but small things that help bring more peace, color, and genuine satisfaction back into daily life.

(00:01:53):

This is, to me, such a relatable episode. And I would not be surprised if, as you listen, you start to recognize your own patterns in our conversation. And if that happens and you’re realizing that you’re ready to make a change for yourself or your kids or your family, I want you to know that that’s something that we can help you with. At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer therapy and parent coaching designed to help families interrupt cycles that feel hard to shift. Because when you’re deeply immersed in daily habits, whether that’s screens, food, reactivity, power struggles, or even your own relationship patterns, it could be incredibly difficult to see your way out. When you are in it, it can feel normal, inevitable, or just too overwhelming to change. And that’s where having a trained, impartial mental health professional alongside of you can make a big difference. So we help you step back, understand what’s driving the pattern, and create sustainable, meaningful shifts, not through shame or willpower, but through insight, evidence-based strategies and support.

(00:03:01):

With offices in Westchester, New York, we offer both in- person and virtual therapy, as well as coaching for families around the world. If you’d like support, you can schedule a free 30-minute consultation by clicking the link in the episode description wherever you’re streaming this podcast, or visit upshurbren.com to learn more. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. Okay. Now let’s get into my conversation with Michaeleen Doucleff.

(00:03:28):

Hello, Michaeleen. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:03:40):

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:03:43):

I am really excited about this conversation and your new book, Dopamine Kids, just came out last week. I am really excited to have you on the show to talk about this because this book, it touches on so many things that are really, really pressing on parents right now. It talks about screens and ultra-processed foods and overstimulation and all the stuff. So I’m excited to dive in. To start, the book’s called Dopamine Kids. Yes. So can you start a little bit first just by explaining the thought behind that title? What was driving this messaging?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:04:24):

So a couple things. I think first of all, there’s huge misconceptions around this one brain chemical, dopamine, and we have all these myths about it. And when I started diving deep into it, because I was trying to fix my … To be honest, I was trying to fix my own problem with my phone, but also my kids, my kids’ problem with the screens. I started to realize that these misconceptions were actually holding us back and making our lives harder. It was making it harder for us to regulate both screens and ultra-processed foods. It was making us crave them more. And once I’ve kind of figured out what’s actually happening with this magical molecule dopamine, our life was so much easier. And actually what I realized was something really surprising that what works with these products is not deprivation. So it’s not making your life smaller, saying no more often.

(00:05:23):

It’s actually like adding more joy to your life. Once we understand how dopamine works, we realize that it’s about reclaiming pleasure and adding more pleasure, creating more moments of fun and play and excitement. It’s not about depriving kids of pleasure. And so once you have that perspective, making limits and making room for other things, other activities and other foods becomes so much easier. And your life actually gets better because you’re adding more pleasure, you’re adding more joy, you’re adding more excitement. So I just keep coming back to this idea over and over again that once we create a healthy relationship with these products, your life gets brighter. It gets more colorful and your home is so much more peaceful.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:06:13):

Oh, well you’re piquing my interest. And it’s funny because I’m a psychologist and I work with kids and parents and I know a good amount about the brain and I’m still … You’re saying the drive to write this book came out of your own search to look at your phone use and your kids’ screen use.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:06:34):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:06:35):

I also am like, I know all the stuff. And I’m certainly looking for ways to get off my phone because it’s so sticky for me.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:06:44):

Yeah, me too.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:06:45):

I have ADHD and it’s like, it really gets very sticky for me. And my kids are also on screens a lot too, and it doesn’t work for us, but I also haven’t yet figured out … I know all the rules, quote rules, and I think you’re going to have some insights for me on this, I think, because I think that’s a big part of your book is that a lot of the strategies we’ve been using are based on some kind of myths or antiquated knowledge. And I’m just really excited to break all this down personally and also just for all our listeners, but maybe at a start, it would help just to level everyone’s playing fields. Can you explain in really simple terms, like what dopamine is and what it does in our child’s brain or in our brain?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:07:31):

Yes. So dopamine is a chemical in our brain, like a chemical messenger is what we kind of think of it as. But for about the 50s, in the 1950s, there were all these experiments where they tried to get animals, so rats, pigeons, people, mice, people too, to basically press a button as much as possible. It’s almost like they had like an iPad and there was like, press a button, press a button, press a button. And they found that when they stimulated the region of the brain where dopamine is really important, all of these creatures, including the people, just could not stop pressing this button. It was like they were just obsessed thousands and thousands of times an hour. They wouldn’t go to the bathroom, they wouldn’t take a shower. They were just … And there was this really big assumption that was made at this time that it was because they were feeling pleasure and that when you activate this part of the brain, it’s the pleasure center of the brain.

(00:08:27):

And it led to this whole belief in neuroscience and psychology that we do things over and over again and we get obsessed with things like an obsessive loops because there’s so much pleasure and we just don’t want to get away from the pleasure. In about the 90s, there was a young neuroscientist at the University of Michigan, Kent Berridge, who had these experiments that basically overturned this whole idea. And it took him a long time to believe him himself and get the rest of the field to believe him. And at the same time, there was another scientist in Germany who was like, wait a second, don’t mean to something else that’s actually not about pleasure. And what’s happened is over the last 30 years or so, this pleasure hypothesis has just been completely overturned. And what the science actually tells us is that dopamine in this part of our brain that’s driving us to press the button over and over again, do it again.

(00:09:23):

I like to say dopamine is the do it again button in your brain. What they’re finding is that dopamine doesn’t call us pleasure. And when we activate this part of our brain, we’re not just feeling pleasure, more and more pleasure. It gives us a sense of wanting and desire and even craving. It makes us go seek out what we need to survive. And so it really pulls us to things. And what we’re learning is sometimes those things make us feel great and especially at the beginning when we first start doing them, but sometimes, and especially over time, the pleasure starts to go away, but we can still really want them. So the products we have in our lives today and our children have are really pressing on the wanting button in our brain and not necessarily the pleasure. And pleasure actually is encoded by a separate, pretty much separable part of the brain and they can come apart.

(00:10:18):

And I think that that is what we’re seeing is that these products can slowly pull apart wanting from pleasure. And so what I started to realize with myself was that, whoa, when I spend an hour on social media, it’s all about wanting. It’s just wanting to stay on there and the pleasure has just totally declined and I’m staying on there because I can’t help it. I’m not staying on there for pleasure. And I started to see that same behavior in my daughter and so it became so much easier to start regulating these devices for both of us.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:10:55):

And was that partly, I mean for yourself, but really also for your daughter, was it in helping her become more aware of the decline in the pleasure? How did you help her gain insight into this?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:11:13):

So when I first started working on this and like trying to teach her this, she was about six and I don’t think at that age she could really get it. I think it was at that age, it was more about me being aware that how she behaved afterwards and her behavior during wasn’t signs of pleasure, right? And that the whole experience every day of pulling her off the screen was not pleasurable for her or for me, right? She’d get so angry and upset. I mean, she’s a wonderful kid, like she’s amazing. And like two hours on Netflix would turn her into just this horrible emotional wreck, right? And it was like, wait a second, this is not pleasure. I could start to see in her this drive of wanting, this kind of compulsive, obsessive, seeking behavior that I felt, right? And so then it became like, whoa, Michaelene, when you tell her to stop or let’s say you just decide we’re not going to have screens after dinner, big move, right? We’re not going to have screens on the weekend, big move.

(00:12:18):

You’re not taking away pleasure from her. You’re going to give her a different activity. And this is a big part of the book is when you take something away, it doesn’t work. You got to replace it. And in fact, I think we should shift how we see limits and with these products and see them as opportunities to give kids something better, to discover something better for their lives, right? And so…

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:12:43):

I mean, it’s marketing, right? Instead of calling it limit, maybe we call it an addition.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:12:48):

Or opportunity for more fun. I mean, I’m not kidding. When you start to see it, and there’s really interesting data here in the food world that backs this up, but when you start to see a kid thrive offline, you start to realize like, no, this is more pleasure. This is more exciting. So let me give you an example. At some point I was like, “Okay, we’re not doing screens after dinner. I’m just done. I’m just tired of the nightly routine and I’m not sure what I’m getting from it.”

(00:13:20):

So instead of saying to Rosie like, “Okay, no screens, no Netflix, no YouTube, you’re done.” That’s so fun, right? That’s just like she wants it more, you get in a fight and you’re kind of, everyone’s frustrated. So what I said to her was I said, and this actually comes from like 20 years of behavioral psychology and this strategy, but what I said to her was like, “Okay, we’re going to take a break from screens. No big deal. I’m not going to make a good deal about it. And instead, I’m going to teach you something you’ve been dying to do. ” So dopamine system is like motivation to do things that we need to survive. And for kids, that includes food and water, but it also includes like exploration, taking risks, being creative, going on adventures. And so I’m going to tap into that same system and I’m going to say, “You’ve been wanting to learn to ride your bike to the market alone and I haven’t had time, so I’m going to teach you to do that.”

(00:14:20):

Right? And so I’m replacing it with something that I think is just as alluring, just as interesting and in some ways more exciting for her than sitting there watching other kids ride their bike around, right? And I’m not leaving her empty handed, right? I’m not telling her to go into her room and have independent play or be okay with boredom, right? I’m inviting her to discover something exciting in her life. And so I…

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:14:48):

So you’re basically leveraging … It’s interesting. I’ll say this a lot with parents when I’m teaching about self-regulation, right? It’s like when you’re really mad and you want to scream or smack someone or throw something and we try to teach a kid to like do something else or even a grownup to do something else. It’s not like take deep breaths and have a cup of chamomile teeth really meets the intensity of the need for that like expressive output of hitting or throwing. So it’s like, you have to kind of be willing to teach a kid to match the intensity with an alternative and I’m hearing the exact sort of same thing here in a different system, right? So you’re saying in the … So I’m thinking about with rage, I need to give a kid something just as powerful as hitting. So usually I’ll start with like, “I’m so mad and I’m stomping my foot.” And I will like literally show a kid that they can do that and it kind of like is a little bit exciting to them because I’m like losing it in front of them, but it’s the same thing I’m hearing, right?

(00:15:55):

Is if I’m going to replace television Or Netflix or YouTube or iPad with something else, it has to hit the same level of intensity of the seeking system, that dopamine hit, that satisfaction of like that driving force that says more, more, more, more and more.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:16:18):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:16:18):

So it can’t be, to your point, independent play or be okay with boredom, that’s a good thing to have, but it’s not a substitute. Like do that at other times. Don’t do that when you’re trying to like wean someone off of YouTube.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:16:35):

Exactly. The kids will actually learn that skill really pretty easily once they have these other skills in their life, right? Once they have these other hobbies and activities. But yes, exactly. I call it in the book ride their motivational wave, right? So like dopamine is motivating them to do something that they feel like is survival, right? That’s what the dopamine system is, survival. And they feel like Lego Girls on Netflix is survival. That’s what they feel. Of course it’s not.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:17:03):

Because the brain is telling them that. Tell me if I’m getting this right, but what’s the problem is, is that the ultra process content, right? Yes. The ultra process, like quick video, video, video, video, it’s lighting up the dopamine centers of the brain over and over and over again, which is telling the bidirectional communication that the body is then getting, the body and the mind, is there’s this inner drive to keep going, going, going. I’m then interpreting that on some unconscious base level, “This is incritical for my survival. I must have more. I must have more. I must have more. I must keep going, going, going. ” So then we think it’s critical to our survival.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:17:53):

That’s right.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:17:54):

It’s super important because the brains, this system that these products are kind of hijacking.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:18:02):

Yes. Tapping into. Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:18:03):

Get this, get us to believe on some base level, this must happen more.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:18:10):

And the dopamine system is so it’s seeking, it’s wanting, it’s desire, but it also is value, right? And that’s another half of it. I talked about the German scientist, that’s Wolf M. Schultz. He was the one in the ’90s too that showed that when the dopamine neurons fire, it’s like, do it again, but it’s also like, this is valuable. Remember this.

(00:18:35):

Think about like a gambler who is pressing a slot machine button over and over again, that when they’re addicted to gambling, that becomes the most important thing in their life, the only thing, right? And so that’s another trick here is that over time, as we use these products more and more, they become so valuable in our lives that to take it away feels so awful to a child. This is what I need to survive. My 13 year old niece told me one day that her phone was her mom and I was like, “No, it’s not your mom.” And she’s like, “No, that’s my mom, that’s my mom.” And that gets into this other phenomenon called sidetracking, which is in the book. But it’s like over time we start to like value these devices and apps and foods, foods are a little bit different, but devices and apps so much that we actually think they are the things that they represent.

(00:19:37):

And so you’re exactly right. If you just take it away, the dopamine plummets and then that just feels like disappointment, that just feels like, “Oh, I’m expecting all of this stuff to happen and it’s not happening.” And so what I’m saying is let’s take all that motivation, all that excitement, and let’s use it for something that’s going to help you in life, learn a skill, and eventually it’s going to help me too, because if you learn to bike to the store, you can go to the store for me, you can take yourself to piano practice, which she’s doing in about an hour. Amazing. But also you’re going to feel satisfied afterwards, right? Because that’s what’s missing in Lego Girls and Netflix and Instagram and video games is the feeling of like, “Whoa, I got what I needed. I fulfilled my need in life and I’m satisfied.” Because if these things made us feel satisfied, we would stop, right?

(00:20:36):

I’m done. So the domain system is supposed to get us out there, get what we need, and then these other, which are called hedonic hotspots, come on and they make us feel like, “Ah, I’m done. I can take a break.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:20:47):

Well, that’s the natural cycle, right? Because these systems…

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:20:50):

What?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:20:50):

That’s the natural cycle.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:20:52):

That’s the natural cycle. Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:20:55):

Because systems are in our brain for a reason.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:20:59):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:20:59):

They’re not designed to be constantly activated. They’re designed to move us through a cycle and it’s like, okay, the dopamine system comes on to tell us, yes, keep going. And then once we finish, we’re supposed to then switch over to a different system that says, “Ah, you’ve done now rest.”

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:21:19):

Exactly. “I’m tired. I have enough.” And I think that is what we’re … And that’s pleasure, that’s part of the pleasure. Seeking can be pleasurable, but too much seeking becomes frustrating, right? And over time, seeking can be really horrible. That’s the whole Greek mythology of tantalus, right? But when you get what you need, that is where the pleasure comes, and that is where the color comes back into your life. That’s what I felt. I was just chasing …

(00:21:50):

One of the neuroscientists told me it’s no longer about the rabbit, it’s just about chasing, right? And we fall in love with this chase and we get obsessed with the chase. And I was just chasing, chasing, chasing, and I was never feeling like real pleasure. And it was making me really gray and gloomy and kind of agitated and anxious. And that’s what made me really … When I learned this idea of like chasing and not lighting up that, fulfilling that cycle that you’re talking about, I was like, “Ah, this is what our kids need. Our kids need to fulfill this cycle every day.” I mean, dopamine is so strong, right? Especially for kids, it’s supposed to get them to take risks, try hard things, work hard, learn to use a knife, learn to use fire, go out there on your own and do something that’s scary. I call them the book scary but fun. This is what the domain system is for. And so let’s use it for that. And at the same time, like you say, wean them off these things that don’t bring that satisfaction.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:22:57):

Yeah. The devices, it’s like a tape that skips. You know what I mean? It’s like, go, go, go, go. There’s no like, I got it.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:23:06):

And it’s actually skipping the reward. Actually, that’s what it’s called sidetracking in the neuroscience parlance is when you … And animals do it too. You actually start skipping past getting a reward and you’re just going, want, want, want, want. And so you’re missing … Gamblers, slot machine gamblers actually stop wanting to win. They don’t want to win because winning stops the chase. And I think that our kids, and we end up in similar cycles with like social media and video games where we’re just in these loops of chasing. It’s like some people call it like a dark flow state, but it’s very unsatisfying and it’s very hard on me. I don’t enjoy it and I don’t think our kids enjoy, a lot of our kids enjoy it, but you’re just missing the reward in life. You’re missing the pleasure. And so that’s what domain kids is about.

(00:24:02):

It’s about understanding that when we put limits on these devices and these foods, and we set up what I call sanctuaries in our life where other activities and other foods take center stage are really the only option. We’re not depriving kids of pleasure. We’re putting pleasure back into their lives. And I 100% believe it. I see it every day. Right.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:24:27):

Yeah. And I could see this like as the adult, right? We might be telling ourselves, I would feel so guilty taking this away from them, but I’m going to remind myself there is so much that gets put back in when I center this because…

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:24:46):

Yes, exactly. It’s so much better.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:24:49):

Yeah. I mean, and so like intellectually, I get that. I’m thinking like you probably have to get a kid on board and I think that’s harder, but I think it could be done. I’m curious what you found to be successful and like what … In the book, do you talk a little bit about the application because I’m also like, okay, I use screens, I put my kids on screens when I need a break.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:25:20):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:25:20):

I talk to so many parents that are like, “I don’t know if I could even really give that up because I need it for them.”

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:25:26):

Right, right. It’s you choosing it for them. I mean, I think that is, you hit like the spot. I mean, like we value them, right? They’re working on our brains the same way, right? So it’s very hard to take away something that we value as well. And it’s a little front loading of the work.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:25:47):

I’m mindful of that. It is. A lot where you’re like, because I could hear a parent hear you say, “I’m taking away, not only am I taking away screens after dinner, so I have to deal with my kid freaking out about that, but now I have to teach them how to ride their bike at night. I’m tired. I don’t have time for this. ” And I’m saying I’m signing this up a little facetiously because I’m like- No, no, no, I get it. I totally get it. I know that it’s, I also tell people to do this and like front load the work, you get the payout on the back end, trust me, trust me, but like you’ve done this. So like how hard was it? And then what, now that you’re on the other side is like, where do you see the payout and how do we make this have be worth it because it’s hard?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:26:32):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s actually, I think there’s a little bit of the myth that it’s going to be like extremely hard. I really do. I mean, I think that one thing that I have learned after talking to so many parents after writing Hunt Gather Parent is that I think one skill that could really help a lot of American parents is letting kids just be upset, like being okay with just some upset kids. Like when Rosie was upset about some of these things, I would be like, “Well, I just love you more. I’m sorry, but I love you more.” But just being okay. It’s okay for kids to be … I call it like emotional autonomy. It’s like, you’re upset. It’s all right. It’s okay if … And kids change really fast. I mean, even I have read stories and talked to parents who, you know, a 14 year old that’s been gaming six hours a day for years and years and years and like a week goes by and the kid can change.

(00:27:31):

I mean, they change and the younger they are, they’re going to change even faster. The key though, and I talk about this a lot in the book, is you really have to make the device disappear. It can’t just be like sitting on your desk drawer in a cabinet or on the shelf because now that’s the cue. So we get deeper into dopamine science. Every time the kid sees it, it’s going to trigger dopamine, it’s going to trigger desire, you’re going to be fighting it, you’re going to be struggling. So to start off with, you really have to create what I call these sanctuaries where the device or the food is just not an option at all. So if the kid gets super upset, they cannot find it and you’re just like, “It’s done. It’s done.” And I’m sorry, I’m sorry you’re upset, but we’re going to feel happier.

(00:28:22):

We’re going to feel better. And I think it’s truly believing that and truly … So the first part of Domain Kids talks a lot about like figuring out what you want as a parent because I think what we’re doing right now is, and maybe you want the kid on the screen for a couple hours every night, but just understand what that means, right? Understand what that means.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:28:45):

I would say, and I can’t speak for all parents, but I think when I get pushback from parents around taking screens out of the evening routine, because I talk a lot with parents in my practice, like they come to me because there’s behavioral challenges or sleep challenges or whatever. And I’m like, “Well, one of the things that makes transitions harder is getting off of a screen interferes with sleep.” There’s a lot of reasons why screens in the evening just make for a nightmare. And I also understand from a very practical standpoint why parents use screens in the evening because they’re multitasking all of their life in that moment. So it’s like this big navigational challenge I think for parents of like, on the one hand screens give us a little space to do all the stuff we have to do and it really makes parenting actually a little bit more clunky at nighttime and like it makes it harder.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:29:38):

Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:29:39):

So I’m always kind of encouraging parents to get rid of screens at the night, in the evening especially. I think one of the reasons why they don’t say, “I want this. This is a goal of mine.” They’re just trying to figure out how to survive the, I have too much to do. And I think simple applying and monotasking and sometimes that’s really hard for working parents especially. It’s not always easier if you have multiple children who need multiple things at once. But I think if I were to channel all of the parents that I work with that want to get things better in the evening time and leverage screens for that, and they say, because it’s your point, it’s like, what do you want? Identifying what you want. It’s like I want ease in the evening. I don’t want to have to be super parent and I don’t want to have to be pulled in 15 directions either.

(00:30:38):

And I wonder if maybe just understanding that helps us to then say, okay, the goal isn’t how do we use screens as a tool in this moment. I think the goal is how do I support- How we bring peace?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:30:52):

Yeah. And I think that’s one of the myths out there that this makes your life easier. When I actually, I know families that don’t use screens in the evenings and I know families that do, and I can tell you which family has it easier, like much easier. So I think of it as like right now, right now a lot of parents are hands … And again, this comes back from this is like very old psychology, very old neuroscience, you’re handling it every day. You’re managing it manually. Every day you’re pulling kids off. Every day you’re making it, you’re negotiating. It’s like constant friction, it’s constant negotiation. And I think for me, it was exhausting. And I’m telling you, if you look at the data, as kids get older, so it feels manageable when they’re eight, nine, 10, maybe even in their tweens, but as they get older and there’s more devices, more apps and more independence, it doesn’t work. I mean, that’s why we see kids on screens for seven hours out of school, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:31:49):

Right, because you can’t control a 17 year old as much as you want to, you can’t.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:31:53):

No. And even like a 14 year old, like what they’re doing was … So for me, it’s like, okay, let’s do this smarter, right? And you don’t have to necessarily be stricter, but like let’s set … The behavioral psychologist will tell you, set up the system, right? Set it up once, make it the default and just make it super clear to the kid, like no screens after dinner. I put the screens in our dryer. The first couple nights that we were like doing this, I was just like, I don’t want her to find them. I want this to be … And yes, there were upsetness, but it was just like I said, like I just had to be okay with some upsetness and I just, because I really felt in my heart and my, this is what our family needs and I really believed it’s going to get easier.

(00:32:38):

And so I put them in the dryer and it was just like, there are none. And we even had like an outlet timer for a while, but it was just like it was turned off and it was just not an option. And what that does, what neuroscience tells us is that rewires her little brain and it’s fast. It’s really fast that like after dinner, you go play outside in the summer, you go play outside. But again, I gave her some more alternatives. You go listen to audio books, you go read a book. Audio books are a great way to wean kids off screens because they’re a little reinforcing, they’re a little like … But they’re not as stimulating and they’re not as hard to get off. For a while, I was like, “I don’t even want audio books, but now we’re back to them.” They’re great, especially if you’re doing art with them and coloring and creating at the same time.

(00:33:28):

But you have to, you can’t create this world where the kid is still kind of, like I say, stewing in their cues, right? And so the screen is like still there, screaming at them, “Turn me on, turn me on. ” It’s like a smoker on a plane, right? If the smoker can’t smoke, eventually the dopamine system calms down and says, okay, in this context … I mean, that’s another thing about the dopamine system. It works in context, right? Like at this time and in this place, this is where my rewards are, quote unquote, rewards. And so it’s like, no, this is not available. My reward is outside. My reward is my book. My reward is coloring. Very quickly, they will start just naturally reaching for these activities off the screen and they will stop wanting them. I mean, there’s months that go by now, six months go by that it’s like, she never asks for it now after dinner, but it slowly went away.

(00:34:24):

It’s just not … In this context, it’s not an option. And it is our life is peaceful, our nights are easy, and we all sleep way better, including myself. I have to say

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:34:40):

Your advice in the dryer too.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:34:43):

Yeah. I weaned myself off my phone at night. It took me much longer than Rosie because she was pretty young when we did it, but the first couple weeks … I mean, it took months before I was really not wanting it. Not wanting my phone in the bed.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:35:01):

I know. I’m like very deep. I think it’s important that we talk about the fact that this is an addiction system. And I don’t mean it in a bad way. I mean, I say that without any shame or negative connotation, but just from a very like the systems we are talking about are the same systems that get activated with any form of addiction. So you talked about smoking as a corollary, you talked about like gambling addiction as a corollary. I mean, the same science we have used to really understand why, you’re right, like if a person who smokes, goes on an airplane many, many times, their body, their brain really, truly starts to chill out the urge to smoke while they’re flying because the brain has assimilated to this environmental cue and does not expect the possibility. So it doesn’t queue up the urge. It doesn’t activate the seeking system in that space. Because it’s useless. It’s useless. And the brain’s pretty smart at figuring out where can I and can’t I seek.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:36:14):

That’s right. For certain things, right? Yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:36:18):

So it makes sense to look to the research in that space to kind of inform us and like, yeah, I think environmental cues- It’s a huge trend. I don’t think we appreciate how much they are turning on that system in our brains and our kids’ brains.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:36:38):

All the time. And once you start to actually create spaces in your own life, in my own life, once I started to actually create places where I didn’t have my phone, it was like incredible to realize how many cues I had created. And not just … I think people don’t realize cues aren’t just like what you see or what you hear or what you smell. They’re also your emotions and your thoughts. And so I had created this cue of like, anytime I was slightly bored or slightly had a pause in life, I checked my phone.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:37:11):

Yes. So it was like everywhere. Totally. I relate to that so much. I think everybody who’s listening is like, “Oh yeah, of course I do that. ” Because we’ve conditioned ourself to do that.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:37:22):

Yeah. And for what good? I realized it was just making me kind of crazy because I was trying to do two things at once all the time, right? I would be like in the store, I’d be heating up the lasagna and then I’m like emailing and I’m like, what am I trying to talk on a group chat text, like what am I doing? But I mean, that is like how the system kind of hijacks it, right? And then this idea that we would give a kid a phone and say, “Go do your homework” is just kind of … Anyway, yes, exactly. These cues, and that’s what scientists have been learning over the last like two decades is like just how powerful these cues are in our life. They decide they have a big part in like how our BMI, like how heavy we are, like how we react to food cues because we haven’t talked much about ultra processed foods, but like they are designed to like create these really strong cues in our lives. And yeah, these cues are like directing us and our children way more. And I think a lot of like parenting for the 21st century is about teaching kids to set up their environment so that they are protected from these cues that are distracting them and pulling them to these things that really don’t make them feel good.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:38:38):

Yeah. I mean, it’s super valuable. And I think it’s interesting and I wanted to make sure to ask you about this. I know the answer, but like screens and ultra processed foods, I get the link, right? Yes. And I get why they fit in a book called Dopamine Kids, but it’s not that common that you see these two things as like the focus. Usually it’s like one or the other. Why did you find that these things are a pair? Why are they a matched pair?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:39:09):

Well, they work in the brain really similarly. So dopamine is there to help us get the things we need to survive. One of them is food, right? And so it is the drive. We largely eat because the dopamine system is triggering us to go eat. And then the screens, what’s really fascinating in the last like 10 years is psychologists and neuroscientists are realizing that kids are on screens and not on them just kind of casually like, ” I’m going to watch a movie once a week, “that type of thing, but they’re on them for like hours and hours, five hours a day, six hours a day, because these things make them feel like they’re fulfilling fundamental needs in their lives. So social media is fulfilling this fundamental need of belonging that’s huge for humans, social support, belonging, right? It’s giving you this, I mean, that’s what they say, connection.

(00:40:02):

It’s not actually doing that. And I think there’s really good data now to show that it’s not, and in some ways is robbing us of that, but like video games, right? Kids are on them so much because it feels like they’re fulfilling their needs for adventure and exploration and connection too. And so all of these things in our lives are tapping into this motivation system, this willingness to work, to seek out, and that’s how they’re connected, right? And we also see that almost every kid I know, like it’s either a screen problem or an ultra processed food problem or both, right? And so it’s like one or the other.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:40:40):

Almost every adult I know too.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:40:42):

I know.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:40:43):

But I think another thing that these two things have in common is that they’re both highly, highly, highly strategically engineered.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:40:53):

Yes. And we haven’t talked about that. Yes, that is exactly right. Like this is not a coincidence, right? I talk about in Dove Me and Kids, the history of it and there’s this amazing psychologist, BJ Fogg. Have you heard of him? He wrote this book in 2002, 2002, before iPads, and it really, the internet of today, where he talked about how to do this, to tap into people’s need for belonging, fear of rejection, need for exploration, need for constant growth. People love to see measurable growth, these numbers, these metrics. And by tapping into…

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:41:36):

Gamification.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:41:37):

Yes, that’s right. Like progress. I call it progress. The need for progress. We love progress. Dopamine drives us to see progress. If we see progress, it’s like dopamine, dopamine, domaine. And he said, you tap into this system through these needs, you make these devices that tap into them and then people will do whatever you want. Basically, this is what his book said. And we can change what people think. We can change what they value the most in their lives. We can make them argue. We can make them, we can change their spiritual life. I mean, just this book is incredible and it’s all about tapping in to this deep seeking system like you call it. And that’s exactly what the tech industry has done, right? They just took his playbook and did it. And then they actually took a bunch of strategies from the gambling industry, which had created the most addictive screen in the ’90s and they just started putting them into the apps and the games too.

(00:42:34):

And then at the same time, we have the food industry … And I want to point out, for a long time, the tech industry did not deny these things. They talked about them. I interviewed engineers that were like, ” Absolutely, this was my job. “So these products that our kids have are made by multi-billion dollar companies with entire engineering departments whose sole purpose is to keep your kid scrolling and tapping and watching, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:43:03):

Right.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:43:03):

And so we are up against a lot. And then we have the whole food industry, which is still admitting that they are intentionally trying to get you to eat as much as possible and to eat when you’re not hungry and to create craving. And I just read this paper from Ashley Gerhard at the University of Michigan where it’s all about how the tobacco industry bought up ultra processed food products and used the exact same playbook that they used with tobacco on the foods to engineer … I mean, she calls it addiction, right? And I know that term’s controversial with foods, but compulsive eating, I think we all agree on.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:43:48):

Well, overriding the ability for the seeking system to get that full completion of the cycle, to get that- Exactly. “Ah, I am done.” That’s right. These systems, the other thing these two systems have in common through this careful engineering, is that they activate the system, but they don’t allow the system to do its natural flow through the organic cycle. So it is the skipping tape the whole time. That’s right. Absolutely. And there’s no satisfaction. That’s the problem. And then that’s why we get stuck. We literally get stuck inside these repeating- These loops. … compulsive systems.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:44:29):

Yeah. In fact, this whole term instant gratification, they wanted to put it on the cover of dopamine kids. And I was like, no, because we are not in the age of instant gratification. We are in the age of no gratification. We are in the age of constant wanting, you know? And because if we were gratified, we would stop. We would stop.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:44:50):

That’s right. One neuroscientist in our satisfied, restful, like exhale. Exactly. That was a good meal, or that was a good game, or that was a good show. We never get that exhale because the next thing loads.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:45:10):

That’s right. And it’s bottomless, right? If you have that feeling of like, “Oh, I’m kind of done watching these goat videos.” Then it’s like, “No, here’s something else. Don’t be done. Never be done.” And I think there’s something to it with kids that’s harder because I think kids are wired to repeat. If you watch the children, they repeat things to practice, right? They love repeating, and I think that it’s really exploiting that need to repeat. But one neuroscientist at Virginia Tech Reed Montague, big dopamine guy, really early experiments, amazing neuroscientists, he calls them like skeletal rewards because they’re kind of missing pieces. If you think about the food, it’s a good one. Ultra processed foods have fat, they have salt, they have huge amounts of refined carbs, a lot of them, but they’re missing fiber, they’re missing the plant structure, they’re missing like they’re kind of … And it’s that part that gives us that satisfaction, right?

(00:46:13):

And so they’re skeletal. He says the same thing about social media. It’s like a skeletal model of your friendships in your social network. And then what happens over time with kids, he says, is that it pushes out the real thing. And so you’re just kind of left with this skeletal model. And I think that that’s, that’s what I’m like, oh, that’s what we have to prevent. And that’s why we create these sanctuaries where in- person relationships are the only option.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:46:44):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the big risks when you do over index and allow kids to over participate in the skeletal versions of things is that for a grownup who’s being introduced to these things later in life, I mean screens. I mean, we had ultra processed foods when we were growing up, but not quite the same way as we do now, but like certainly screens in tech, like we didn’t have it in our childhood in the way that kids do now. And it’s like, so we got this baseline- That’s right. Foundation. Our foundation was built with more tactile realness and gravity and so our frameworks still hold that essential, like the not skeletal versions of things, like the true things. We know what it’s like to make a new friend and get into a fight and figure it out and go back and like ride our bikes together the next day and like…

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:47:46):

Right. And laugh with your friends so hard you pee in your pants.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:47:50):

That’s what Rosie does.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:47:52):

I’m like, “You got to stop being your parents.” But like she’s so enjoying her friends, right? Yeah. That you just can’t do on social media.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:48:00):

And I think the risk is when we give kids access to so much of the zero gravity, two dimensional skeletal versions of things, one, they prefer it because it’s easier, it’s faster. That’s right. But also they start to think that is the real thing. That’s exactly right. They don’t actually know … I know the difference between a real in- person, complex relationship, but that I built from the ground up and has had its ups and downs that lasted multiple years in my childhood to the sort of like, “Oh, I know who you are through social media.” I know the difference. I know what that feels like. It’s like a felt sense difference.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:48:44):

That’s right.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:48:46):

And I think our kids are risking that they don’t actually always really do know the difference and there’s confusion around that. And I think as parents from the generation that we have where we lived in both worlds, I think sometimes we take for granted that our kids are able to discern. And I think actually the reality is they may not be as able to discern as we think they are because we’re projecting our frameworks onto them that we built from being in both worlds. I don’t know. I’m like thinking this out as I … I’m not exactly sure if this makes sense, but like it’s just a hypothesis, but …

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:49:19):

I think that there’s very good data to show that it’s called side tracking. I think I’ve brought this up. It’s in domain kids, but animals, all animals, including people, over time, start to confuse the signal or cue for a real reward for the real thing. They start to transfer the value. And so I think you’re absolutely right. I think that kids and adults too, I think I did this. I think I fell into this trap where you start to mistaken what really is a signal for social support, right? Like a social media posts, social media friends, text groups, these are signals for real support, right? You need to be with the person to get real support. So it’s kind of like when neuroscientists say it’s like a promissory note for social support that’s going to come in the future, right? And that’s what I kind of use my phone for now, right?

(00:50:15):

Is to like set up real events, right? Real meetings. But I think you’re absolutely right. I think there’s very good evidence that as kids kind of become so embedded and entrenched on social media and on text groups, they confuse the real friendship, the real interaction for that, and they stop seeking it out, right? They stop seeking out the real thing. And I think that that’s when we get really lonely kids and you start to see some of the bad mental health problems that we all know about, right? Is because you’re not getting the ah, you’re not getting the pleasure, you’re not getting the touch, the laughter, the real deal, right? The satisfaction- Which you absolutely need as humans.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:51:06):

Okay. I think this is so helpful to understand why these things are doing what they are to us. And I think anyone who’s listening probably is like, I agree. Okay, I’m on board. So one, just get Micheleen’s book, Dopamine Kids, and read it. But let’s also maybe end with just some things that can be helpful to do. My guess is it doesn’t have to be massive overhauls of your whole life, right?

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:51:32):

In fact, neuroscience will tell you, or behavioral psychology will tell us do not make massive overhauls. They are not going to work. You’re just going to end up like 30 days after your detox. You’re just going to kind of end up in the same place you’re at. It’s not how we change, right? It’s really, it’s like very small but permanent. That’s what I say in the book, like you want to think very small changes that almost seem boring and like totally doable, but they’re permanent. You’re not going back. So the metaphor is kind of like, if you want to lose weight, you pick like one thing you’re never going to eat again. I’m never going to eat a Snickers bar again and it’s like, that’s it. It’s gone.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:52:15):

You grieve the loss of it and you’re done.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:52:18):

That’s right. And you’re done. It doesn’t matter what you weigh, that’s never coming back. And so yes, we want to try to find these little tiny things that we can do that will start to move us towards our goal and what we want in our lives and start to bring calmness back and pleasure back. One of the things I think, but they’re easy and they’re doable. One of the things I think is a really great place to start, and maybe your listeners will not agree, but from my research is this like screens on the go thing. I think that when we carry screens in the car and we carry them at restaurants and we’re basically just training our kids, like this is the time that we’re on the screen, like basically all of our life on the go.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:53:02):

Like transition moments.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:53:04):

Yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:53:06):

Use screens for transition moments.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:53:09):

Yes, exactly. We’re training them that. And we’re also training them that when we’re bored, we use screens. So we start to like every transmission moment of our lives becomes a moment for screens. But what we’re doing is we’re getting up this amazing opportunity when kids are bored and like if they don’t have a screen there, they have a book or a sketch pad or heck maybe you talk to you. So I think we could start there. It’s like, even on long trips, like even just try it, try it out. I remember the first long trip we got rid of the screen in the backseat and there was some gripey gripey and stuff, but again, just let it be. And she picked up some book, some random book that was like sitting in the car forever and like read the whole thing and I was just like, whoa, like this is, because she was bored.

(00:54:05):

And I think that boredom cue, like training that boredom cue for like, “Oh, this means I read, this means I play the piano, this means I go talk to people, I go outside.” If we could train our kids for that trigger, that cue to be something offline, I think that’ll be like a gift for the rest of their lives.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:54:21):

Yeah. What that makes me think of is like, okay, so if we have this one note seeking system, right? If we’ve trained our brain to every time the seeking system gets activated, we immediately give it one thing: the screen. It doesn’t teach us to differentiate and diversify what our speaking system goes after.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:54:44):

Beautiful.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:54:44):

It’s like, I only know this one thing over, over, over, over, over, but it’s like, if I don’t have that one thing, what does actually end up replacing it is many things, anything. That’s so nice. And really we’re teaching ourselves to just seek.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:54:59):

I love that. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but that is really beautiful, right? And so if you don’t have that thing, you’re just like, if you haven’t created these other desire pathways, right? So yeah, you’re exactly right. The video game addiction world talks about this, that when kids really try to get over their video addiction, they have to replace it with like six different types of activities because it’s exactly what you say. It’s fulfilling like all these desires. I need something that’s calming. I need something that’s stimulating. I need something that’s outside or like feels outside, right? It’s just gaming, gaming, gaming, right? But life is so much richer than that. So yeah, you’re exactly right. You start to add all these color to your life instead of just this one note that you just keep going, hitting every time. Yeah, it’s really a beautiful way of putting it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:55:54):

That’s reason alone to give it a shot, right? Like add some color, add some diversity in some who knows what to our life.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:56:04):

I mean, I think you will be surprised. Again, a couple, you’re going to have to put it up with a little bit of discomfort with your child, but a little discomfort is good for them. It’s really good for them. And yourself, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:56:19):

It is. It’s an exercise and distress tolerance for everyone and it doesn’t feel comfortable. I imagine it doesn’t. I’m telling myself this as I’m like, okay, the reason I don’t, that I have avoided giving up my phone and really, really addressing my phone addiction because I have one for sure is because it’s uncomfortable. It’s much more comfortable for me to have my phone by my bed at night. It will be more uncomfortable for me to keep it in the kitchen and yet I know that’s what I need to do. I know that’s what Sarah Brenn needs to do. I don’t think that’s what everyone needs to do, but like I know that’s what I need to do and I don’t do it because it’s uncomfortable. So I’m going to have to like, maybe I’ll hold myself accountable and actually have to report back to the listeners here on the podcast.

(00:57:10):

Call me up, email me in a month and see if I have done it. Can you do it? I’m like so in that, I’m so ready. I’m almost ready. I’ve told my kids, I’m like, “I’m going to get a brick. I’m going to give it to you guys.” But that’s a great idea.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:57:29):

I love that idea. Oh my gosh. Give it to the kids.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:57:32):

So now I said it publicly. I’m not sponsored by Brick, but please brick, send me a brick because I’m going to give it to my kids and I’ll document it.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:57:39):

Yeah. And then I can do a story on it. I love this because what you’re doing, and you touched on this a little bit, like you’re getting them into this system, right? You’re getting them to be an accountability partner.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:57:50):

Yeah! When they’re young enough, they’re six and eight, so they don’t have their own tech really yet that like they watch me on my tech and they find it quite irritating. They are not afraid to tell me how much of a hole I am about my phone.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:58:05):

I love it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:58:08):

Yeah. So I’m like, fine, I’m going to get … And I’ve told them, because like in moments where I’m feeling really bold and like I want to do it, I will tell them and then I like want to backtrack. But like, yeah, no, I should get a brick and give it to my kids and then I’ll let you know.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:58:25):

Yeah. Or have them control the … I guess if you’re on WiFi or you’re on your cell service, it doesn’t, but get like a outlet and have them control the outlet to your router. Have your eight year old control your router. No.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:58:42):

Oh, my husband would hate that s much, but yeah, that’s what we should do.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:58:44):

Yeah. I mean, this is how it works. I mean, like we really weaned ourself off ultra processed food, but it was a team effort. It is Rosie and my daughter and me together like totally.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:58:56):

But I think strategically that’s another really important thing when parents are like, “How do I do this? ” Is like, if you can position it as you and me versus the problem versus me versus you and help them become part of like the inside of it all and like pull back the curtain and say like, “This is controlling us and I don’t like it and you don’t like it and nobody likes being controlled.” I want to give you the power back and like the power of me and my phone addiction, right? If I give my kid the prick, that gives them this taste of power, which I think actually feel really therapeutic and healthy for all of us.

Michaeleen Doucleff (00:59:31):

Oh, I think it would be huge. And I think what it will do is it will give you cred when you’re like flipping it around and trying to take it away from … And you touch on something we haven’t mentioned, but is a huge part of it and it’s something you can do pretty easily is really think about how you talk about these things, right? Because language is so powerful, right? And if we constantly talk about screens and ultra processed foods as like the rewards in life, like We’re just cranking up motivation for them. But what you’re talking about is the opposite. It’s like starting to look at the cost and how it hurts us and how it’s built to control us and make us just want more and then hype up the good things, the things that make us feel good. I’m like the hype woman in our house for salmon and kimchi. It matters.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:00:26):

I love it. Yeah. But it’s the way, it does matter. And I do think it is really important. If you want your kid … You got to speak your kids language. You got to find what is interesting and motivating to them. And you know what no kid likes? No kid, no kid likes to be told what to do. That’s right. And what they really, really hate is if big tech is trying to steal their attention and tell them what to do and get one over on them and trick them into giving them all of their attention. And does that feel- And their money. I mean, it’s money. Oh my God. That is the best way to get kids interested in this a little bit because really does this really strong developmental need to not be controlled by somebody else.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:01:15):

Yes. Injustice. There’s like justice.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:01:17):

Yeah.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:01:18):

Yeah. No, I think we talk about it all the time. And I think as kids get older, it’s like more important, right? The tweens and the teens and like really … One of the neuroscientists told me before they gave their son social media, I think he was like 13 or something. He gave them a full PowerPoint slide on how the device taps into the dopamine system and makes you sidetrack and creates these cues. And he called it the talk. And then there was like a whole thing of like, okay, how much of your time do you want to give to this, to this manipulative device and like working it out. And then the parent’s job is to help hold them to their plan as they get older and like be their like cerebral cortex, so to speak, and really work with them. They come up with it, you come up with it.

(01:02:08):

But Sarah, I have to tell you, getting ready to the phone in the bed, I was 10, 15 years. It was really hard. And there were nights I was pacing around the living room, like not wanting to go to bed because I was like afraid of like whatever it’s going to feel like. But I have to tell you, it’s been 18 months now, I think. And I just sleep so well. I just sleep so well. I cannot go back. I cannot go back. It really affects … I think we’re just so used to it. I know.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:02:41):

Yeah. We’re creatures of comfort and habit and I think it’s time for me. I’m willing to like … I’m saying this in public.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:02:50):

I have to do it now. I know. I thought of that. I’m writing a book that I’m saying I’m doing all these things and then what happens if … No, no, no.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:02:59):

It’s good. It’s motivating.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:03:01):

It is motivating.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:03:02):

It’s turning on my dopamine system for a different seeking thing. Okay.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:03:08):

But then you create all these cues that like you lay down and like all the cues are like fall asleep and you just lay down and you just fall asleep. And you’re like, what?

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:03:15):

I want that. Where’s the struggle? What is your real want? My real want is to be able to lay down and just like fall asleep. And I have all these things that I’ve built into my life that get in the way of that.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:03:31):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:03:31):

It’s not logical. I understand that.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:03:34):

It’s powerful.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:03:34):

But this has been incredible. If people want to follow your work, you’ve written, I love Hunt Gather Parent, incredible book. And now Dopamine Kids, it is now out. Go get it. It is really worth reading. How can they connect with you, stay up to date on all the cool stuff that you’re working on and writing?

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:03:58):

So I’m not on social media because I can’t handle it. My little dopamine system is not strong enough for social media. But I have a website. I spend all this time and money to make this really nice website and I’m going to put everything up there and you can absolutely email me on there and I will definitely read it. And I want people to use the website. It doesn’t trick you into scrolling or anything. So it’s just information and I would love to hear from you. And I’d love for people to try things in the book and tell me how it goes because we’re in uncharted territory. We really are as parents. And so we’ve just got to try and pay attention to what gives us that awe feeling. Like what makes you just feel like, I’ve had enough and my life is good right now.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:04:51):

Yes. Oh, I think that is such a good place to orient ourselves to.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:04:56):

Yes. Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:04:58):

Thank you so much for writing this book, for coming on to talk about it with us, and we’ll talk soon.

Michaeleen Doucleff (01:05:05):

Okay. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:05:06):

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