374. Reclaiming your focus: Distraction, screen time, and becoming more present with Nir Eyal

Nir (00:00):

Blaming the technology is very shortsighted is what I learned. And if you don’t dig into the actual psychology of why we get distracted, not just the things we like to blame, the phone, the pings, the dings, the rings, but actually the deeper psychology when I started from first principles, the answer I discovered was much more surprising, much more interesting and much more empowering than stop using technology.

Dr. Sarah (00:28):

For many of us, distractions have become a constant part of our lives. We pick up our phones without thinking, we multitask our way through the day, and we wonder why being fully present, whether it’s with our kids, our partners, or even with ourselves, feels so much harder than it used to. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two who specializes in child development, emotion regulation, and attachment science. And I’m so thrilled to be joined this week on the podcast by someone whose work has shaped how so many of us think about attention and intentionality, Nir Eyal.

(01:02):

Nir is the author of the bestselling book, Indistractable, and his research sits at the intersection of psychology, technology, and human behavior. In our conversation, we get into why we actually get distracted, why willpower is not the solution, and how internal triggers, not just phones or notifications, but internal triggers are usually at the root of this distraction. We talk about how parents can become more intentional with their attention, how to model healthy tech habits for our kids, and the practical strategies Nir teaches to help both adults and children build the skill of staying present. By the end of this episode, you will walk away with a new framework for understanding distraction. You’ll have concrete tools that you could start using today, and you’ll have a much deeper sense of what it really means to live and to parent with intention in a world full of competing demands.

(02:04):

Hi, Nir. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Nir (02:07):

Oh, Sarah, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Sarah (02:10):

So you’ve written a couple books on focus and distraction and how our minds approach things. I’d really love to hear what got you into this work and why did you write the book Indistractible?

Nir (02:27):

Yeah. So the inciting incident for me was that I had published my first book and enjoyed some amount of success from that. I was asked to do speaking gigs and consulting work and all kinds of fun things. And the result of all that success at the time was this one afternoon when I was with my daughter, and we had some daddy-daughter time, just some time blocked out to have some fun together. And we had this activity book that I remember of all kinds of games that dads and daughters could do together. Somebody gave it to me for Father’s Day or something. And I remember there were all these activities in the book. One of them was to make a paper airplane throwing contest, and another was to do a Sodoco puzzle together. And one of the activities in the book was to ask each other this question.

(03:13):

The question was, “If you could have any superpower, what superpower would you want? ” And I remember that question verbatim, but I can’t tell you what my daughter said because in that moment, for whatever reason, I thought it was a good idea. Let me just check my phone real quick, honey. I just got to do this one thing. I’m so sorry. Let me just check my phone. And by the time I looked up for my device, she was gone because I was sending her a very clear message that whatever was on my phone was more important than she was and she went to go play with some toy outside. And so that’s when I realized to myself, wow, I really have to get control over this because frankly, Sarah, it wasn’t just with my daughter. It would happen when I would say, “Oh, today’s going to be the day I eat right and exercise,” but I didn’t and I wouldn’t.

(03:53):

Today’s going to be the day I work on that big project and finally finish it. And I’d procrastinate and do, God knows what, for 20, 30, 45 minutes, everything but the project. And so if you ask me today what superpower I would really want, right? We can’t have X-ray vision or whatever, real superhero powers. If you really ask me what power I would want, it’s the power to be indistractable, which is the title of the book. It’s about doing what you say you’re going to do. It’s as simple as that because I think the privileged problem that we have today is that we are swimming in so many pieces of information and so much content and so much opportunity online that we’re kind of drowning in it. And so the problem is no longer a lack of wisdom. It used to be like when I was a kid and you wanted to go find wisdom, you had to go to the library because this was pre-internet.

(04:43):

I’m dating myself, but you had to go buy a book or go to the library to go get the information. Well, now the information’s all out there. Who doesn’t know? You want to lose weight? There’s a million pieces of advice and gurus. And we basically all know, right? Eat less and exercise. That’s kind of it for 99% of the population. Not that hard. We know what to do. If you want to have a great relationship with your family, you got to be fully present. We know that. If you want to excel at your job, you have to do the hard work that other people don’t want to do. So the problem isn’t that we don’t know what to do. We all know what to do. And if you don’t know, ask ChatGPT, ask Google, the answers are there for the first time in human history. They’re at your fingertips.

(05:20):

The problem is not that we don’t know what to do. The problem is that we don’t know how to get out of our own way. We don’t know how to stop being distracted. And so I wrote this book not because I knew what I wanted to say. It’s because I had to find out the answer. I didn’t write what I know. I wrote what I wanted to know. And so that’s why it was so important for me to become indistractable because frankly, Sarah, I’d read other people’s books on the topic and it was the same stupid advice from some professor who has tenure who can’t get fired. And the advice was, “You know what? Stop checking email. Go off social media. Stop listening to so many podcasts. Thanks, stupid.That’s not useful. I’m not going to do that. ” So blaming the technology is very shortsighted is what I learned.

(06:04):

And if you don’t dig into the actual psychology of why we get distracted, not just the things we like to blame, the phone, the pings, the dings, the rings, but actually the deeper psychology when I started from first principles, the answer I discovered was much more surprising, much more interesting and much more empowering than stop using technology.

Dr. Sarah (06:22):

Yeah. So how did you get there? How did you dive into the psychology of it?

Nir (06:31):

Yeah, I really started from first principles because … Well, the first thing, let me back up. The first thing I did before I did the research for the book was I tried everybody’s advice. I bought the books on how to stop using your cell phone so much, and there are a million of them these days. And I did what the books told me to do. The book said, stop using technology. And I did that. And I got myself a flip phone, the kind we used to use in the 1980s, or 1990s. I’m not sure how old you are, but I remember these.

Dr. Sarah (06:57):

The razor, I remember.

Nir (06:58):

Yeah, the razor, right? Oh, that was high tech. That was high tech.

Dr. Sarah (07:03):

I had a Nokia. Yep.

Nir (07:04):

Yep. So I bought one of those off of ebay.

Dr. Sarah (07:07):

We are dating ourselvs.

Nir (07:08):

Yeah, exactly. And then I got myself a word processor. I don’t know if you’ve seen what these things are like, but I got them from some library wholesale on eBay, but basically it’s like a word processor. No internet connection. It’s only a wired connection. And all you can do on it is type. That’s it. I bought one of those two. And I thought, okay, I solve the problem. No social media. Problem solved. No apps, no internet, done. I’ll be super focused. And here’s what happened. I would sit down at my desk and I would say, “Okay, I’m not going to get distracted. Nothing’s going to get in my way. I’m just going to focus. I’m just going to write.” But you know what? There’s that book on the shelf that I’ve been meaning to finish. Now it’d be a good … Let me just browse that.

(07:47):

I’m doing research or let me just clear up my desk or, oh, the trash, the trash needs to be taken out. And I kept getting distracted. And it turns out that’s when I started digging into this like, how come I got rid of the technology? Shouldn’t I be free of distraction? And it turns out that people have been struggling with distraction for at least the past 2,500 years. Plato, the Greek philosopher, was talking about Acrasia and the Greek, the tendency to do things against our better interests. He was talking about it 2,500 years before the internet. So the problem has to be deeper than just TikTok and Instagram and these apps that we do find very engaging and they’re definitely designed to be engaging, but that’s the surface. That’s not the deeper reason.

Dr. Sarah (08:27):

Yeah. No, that makes total sense to me. I mean, obviously I think the tech has gotten a little bit more pernicious in its ability to hook into us. I mean, your first book is called, Hooked.

Nir (08:37):

Yeah, it’s all about that.

Dr. Sarah (08:39):

It’s all about that. And so I think it’s harder, especially younger minds that are being raised on it, like getting that wiring earlier to like … What’s the thing that I’m trying to say? You and I, probably I’m guessing based on the little tech nuggets you left about the breadcrumbs, about how old you might be. I grew up at a time where I definitely had tech, but it was not everywhere and my childhood was not surrounded by it. And boredom was something that I had to like grow a tolerance for in a different kind of way than most kids today do. And certainly as an adult, I don’t. My boredom tolerance, my white space tolerance has atrophied tremendously in the last 20 years. I think this is what we’re getting at, which is like, how do we expand our tolerance for this white space, this less stimulating space that we kind of need to create in order to focus and prolong focused.

(09:47):

But it’s tough. I mean, I guess I’m just like, I’m not going to let tech get off the hook that easy, big tech, but I hear you. I think I’m very curious about what you found helpful to yourself and to the people, the many people you help and talk with. When all the noise is coming in, how do you get the work done or how do you find the thing that matters?

Nir (10:17):

In fact, let me agree with you on that. I think that if we do not do something about this for ourselves, not only for ourselves, if you think the world is distracting now, just wait a few years. The world is only going to become a more distracting place with virtual reality and all the stuff that’s happening and real reality and AI and all the stuff that’s coming down the pipes. There is no way the world is going to become less distracting. There will be more people trying to manipulate your attention than ever, and they’re going to be better at doing it than ever before. We know where this is going. It is undeniable. And I know all their tricks. My first book Hooked, it was about exactly how they get you hooked, all these psychological tricks they use to keep you using their products and service.

(11:01):

That is not going backwards. And in fact, if we don’t do something about this, if we don’t teach our kids about how to deal with this, I think the world is really bifurcating into two kinds of people. There will be the kind of people who I call the manipulated masses, that they will just go along with whatever’s in their feeds, whatever’s in the media, and they will do whatever they want you to get rallied up about, whether it’s true or not, won’t matter. It’ll just matter if it makes you click and it makes you watch because all media companies, I don’t care if it’s social media, if it’s TikTok and Facebook or the New York Times or CNBC or CNN, they all make money the same way. All media companies monetize your eyeballs. They turn your eyeballs into cash. Netflix, the casinos, you name it. All of them are monetized.

Dr. Sarah (11:49):

Yeah. Kids ones too, like Roblox and all of these …

Nir (11:54):

Yes. And yet it’s not your fault. It is not your fault. You didn’t invent Facebook, you didn’t invent the iPhone, you didn’t invent Netflix, not your fault, but it is your responsibility because who else’s responsibility could it possibly be? Are we going to ask Netflix? “Hey, Netflix, your shows are really interesting. Please stop it. Hey, NBA, I like to watch games way too much. Hey, iPhone, your devices are way too user-friendly. Please stop it. ” There’s no way. The price of progress, the price of living in a world with so many good things in it, the fact that we don’t have to be bored anymore, we can stay constantly connected. We can have the world’s information at our fingertips. We can learn any skill we want pretty much for free. The price is that we have to change. We have to adopt these new ways of living or we will be manipulated by these devices.

(12:50):

So it’s either become part of the manipulated masses or stand up and say, “No, I will decide how I spend my time and attention. I will become indistractable.” That’s the only choice we have.

Dr. Sarah (13:01):

Yeah. And every time I talk to someone about something that’s so resonant for adults and me as an adult, I’m always like, “Oh my God, this is also, there’s this parallel process of how do we do this for our kids?” We could literally have two podcast episodes just about how do we do this for ourselves and how to do this for our kids, but we have to toggle between the two because I’m like, I need to be indistractable because I am deeply addicted to my phone and my white space tolerance has completely atrophied. I’ve actually gotten better. I do much better now than I did let’s say a year ago, but it’s hard. And my kids, six and eight, they’re starting to enter this world. They don’t have devices, but they do love TV and they love to hop on my phone. And the kids that play dates are starting to pull out computers and it’s getting there.

(13:57):

And I’m like, “Ooh, the window is closing for this precious innocent time of they accept boredom. They don’t like it. They’ll whine about it, but they accept it as their job to fill with something.”

Nir (14:15):

Yeah. So first of all, you said something incredibly wise, which I actually don’t hear that often from parents, which is that if I’m going to raise indistractible kids, I have to be an indistractable parent. And that is something that seems so obvious and so basic, but you would not believe how many times I hear parents saying, “Oh, my kid is always on Fortnite and they’re always on TikTok and they’re always on their game.” And meanwhile, literally as they’re telling me this, they’re holding their phone checking email. I think very few parents realize, and I’m the father of a 17 year old, and I think parents don’t realize that kids come born with these invisible antenay. It’s called the hypocrisy detection device. They’re all born with it and they’re constantly scanning the surroundings to see where you screw up.

(15:01):

And so you cannot be a hypocrite here. If you want to raise indistractable kids, you have to be an indistractable parent. The good news is that for the amount of time that we spend complaining about the big, bad tech companies and why won’t government save us and why won’t somebody fix the problem? It’s not that hard. It’s really, really not that hard. I’ve given people on a silver platter five years of research as to what exactly to do. And the good news is almost everybody can do it, unless there’s like a real psychological barrier, severe OCD or some kind … The vast majority of people can do it if they tried. But of course most of us don’t try. We just complain.

Dr. Sarah (15:41):

Yes. I mean, I think that was my pre-contemplative state. I would complain and I knew what I had to do, but I really would much rather complain than do it because putting my phone somewhere besides my bedside table didn’t feel good because I liked to scroll at night and I still … I’m a baby steps kind of person. I’m like very, very demand avoidant. So if someone tells me what to do, even if it was like I was going to do that, I had this great idea, but if someone else tells me to do it, I’m like, “Well, now I’m not going to do it.

Nir (16:16):

” Okay. We may be separated at birth because this is so me. So there’s a term for this. It’s this term where when you are told what to do, you rebel. It’s called psychological reactance. And it’s that feeling when you’re, I’m sure you’ve heard this term before given your background, but when you’re told by your boss to do something, micromanage, or when even your spouse or your parent tells you to do stuff, “Ah, don’t tell me what to do. ” The crazy thing that blew my mind is that even when you tell yourself what to do, it still elicits psychological reactants. How weird is that?

Dr. Sarah (16:54):

Yeah. It makes sense though, because when I talk to myself in an authoritarian way, I get mad at myself and I will self-destruct. I will self-sabotage.

Nir (17:07):

So here’s the trick. Let me give you one very quick trick from the book on how to deal with this because it’s so true. And this is why willpower alone doesn’t work and self-discipline doesn’t work because when you tell yourself what to do all the time, you rebel, it backfires. So rather than telling yourself not to do something, you’re going to tell yourself not yet. So not know, you’re going to tell yourself not yet. So for example, in my case, I’ve been a professional author now since 2014, 2013, and all I want to do when I’m writing is something else. I’ve written three books now, thousands of articles that I’m telling you, it never gets easier. All I want to do is something else. I want to do some research. Let me just Google that question I have because that’s really important right now as opposed to writing.

(17:49):

Let me just Google that real quick. Or let me just check sports scores or stock prices or the news. Oh, it’s very important. I should check the news because you know somebody’s suffering 3,000 miles away and it’s got nothing to do with me, but oh yes, it’s very important. I should check the news right now. And so what I do now instead is called the 10 minute rule. And the 10 minute rule acknowledges that if you give yourself just a little bit of time to surf that urge, what we call surfing the urge, that these sensations, these impulses are just like waves. They crest and then they subside. So what I’ll do is if I’m writing and I really do want to Google something or go get a piece of chocolate cake or a cup of coffee or anything but the thing I said I was going to do, I said, “Yep, I can do that.

(18:34):

I can do that. ” If it’s I want to get the cup of coffee or I want to go check sports scores or do whatever, I can do it, but I choose not to do it right now. Not telling myself no, I’m telling myself not yet. And so what I’ll do is I’ll set a timer for 10 minutes and if that’s too long for you, no problem. Do two minutes, do five minutes, doesn’t really matter. What you want to do is to set that amount of time for you to just surf that urge for that period of time. So the idea is that you’re an adult, you can do whatever the heck you want and you will do that thing, right? If you’re on a diet, you can have the chocolate cake. If you’re trying to quit smoking, you can smoke the cigarette. If you’re trying to not check social media so much, you can check it, but not right now. I choose to just wait a bit to that minute increment of time and almost everybody can do just 10 minutes. And so what you’re doing is you’re training yourself to see that, wait a minute, I have agency, I do have control because for 10 minutes I didn’t do that thing.

(19:28):

And so the 10 minute rule becomes the 12 minute rule, becomes the 15 minute rule, becomes a 20 minute rule, and you’re building your self of agency, sense of agency, excuse me, as opposed to, “It’s impossible. Everything’s so addictive. I can’t help myself. I can’t stop. I wish the government would fix this. ” You’re proving to yourself you have agency.

Dr. Sarah (19:45):

You’re not only proving to yourself that you have agency, because I think that’s a hugely important piece that you have to consciously log that new data, that sense of self that’s like, “Oh, I can do this. “

Nir (19:57):

That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Dr. Sarah (19:57):

“I didn’t think I could, but I can. ” But what else that you’re doing in that 10, two, 12, whatever minute stretch is you’re exercising exposure to distress without turning off the switch. You’re not hitting that distress light switch.

Nir (20:14):

I love it. That’s right. And I give people in indistractible a bunch of different tactics because not everything works for everybody all the time, that you want to have a portfolio of different options, like tools in your toolkit so that sometimes you’re pulling out the 10 minute rule and then other times it’s surfing the urge and then other times it’s a personal mantra. And other times the idea here is that you want to have all kinds of tools that you can use that over time, it’s amazing. Ever since I started using these techniques, and I wrote the book for me more than anyone else, I was the most distracted person you’ve ever met. I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD. I’ve got the full resume. Me too. But what happens is over time, you find that you need these tools less and less and less. And that’s what I like about these techniques.

(20:50):

This isn’t something that you’re supposed to do forever. It’s something that actually you can treat yourself. You can learn these techniques so that the problem disappears. It takes time. And one word that I hear is said a lot of like, it’s not easy. I hear that a lot.This is hard and you’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. But then again, what in life is worth having that’s not on the other side of hard, right? Raising great kids is hard, right? You and I both know it’s fricking hard. Starting a podcast, super hard, starting a business, having a great marriage, having a great career. It’s all hard. Everything worth having is on the other side of hard.

Dr. Sarah (21:27):

Yeah. And I think the other side of indistractible is sort of some numb bliss, right? The opposite. Being distracted all the time, like we’re saying, to surf that urge to go do this thing that feels easier and better and quicker or more instantly gratifying means you have to sit in distress. To just go and turn off the distress means I can just check out. I can turn it off. I can be in this sort of disconnected state. And it’s very hard to not enjoy that and become very comfortable there. And I think to have the awareness to say, “That feels good right now, but it doesn’t feel where I want to be or it doesn’t get me where I want to go and I want that more is important.” And you were saying it gets easier to do these things. You need less of the tools over time.

(22:24):

I think the reason why, and I’m sure you know this too, is that it’s like when you go to the gym and you’re building up muscle. Well, doing the harder reps is not as hard anymore and you level up. And like the same is true for brain, for neural connections and rewiring. Like you’re basically, when you’re using these tools to scaffold the task initially, it’s because your neural connections aren’t fully quickly wired in that way, but the more you use the tools to scaffold the behavior and practice this stuff, whether it’s staying focused on a task, identifying what your true intention is, whatever, just resisting the urge to change your focus channel, whatever it is. These are like executive functioning skills, right? Right. And if you are wiring the brain through practice, they become more accessible. So your prefrontal cortex is getting different wiring and over time the wiring does itself, like the connections move through the wiring channels that you have reset. So it’s not so hard. It becomes habit.

Nir (23:38):

That’s exactly right.

Dr. Sarah (23:45):

You just heard us talking about how a key to becoming indistractible is by strengthening the executive functioning skills that help us manage impulses, fall through on our intentions, and stay regulated when life throws distractions our way. But being the parent who has to teach these skills, that could be a real challenge because when you’re the one constantly reminding, redirecting and trying not to sound like the nagging parent, it could turn into a recipe for power struggles, big feelings, and frustration on both sides. At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we help kids and teens build these executive functioning, emotional regulation and cognitive flexibility skills so you don’t have to take on that role by yourself. Whether your child has trouble transitioning, managing big feelings, staying focused or following through on tasks, we’ll give them tools that actually stick to help them make daily life run more smoothly. With offices in Pelham, New York, we offer both in- person and virtual therapy, as well as coaching support for families nationwide. To learn more, visit upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com, or click the link in the episode description to schedule a free 30 minute consultation call. All right, let’s get back to my conversation with Nir.

Nir (25:17):

What was a breakthrough for me was boiling down … It took me five years to write Indistractable, and it took me that long, one, because I kept getting distracted. Like I said, I wrote this book for me more than anyone else. I constantly got distracted, but two, it took me a long time to figure out what worked and what doesn’t.

(25:34):

And I hadn’t realized how much of what we think is kind of productivity gospel. It doesn’t work. There’s just no good scientific validation showing that many of these … For example, to- do lists. There’s almost no good … At least I couldn’t find many good studies that show that to- do list works, but here’s what does work. I mean, really well, thousands of peer-reviewed studies have shown that time boxing, or they call it setting up an implementation intention. That’s the fancy way of saying, planning out what you’re going to do and when you’re going to do it. Literally thousands of peer-reviewed studies have shown this, and this blows the lid off of to- do list because to- do list, the problem with to- do list, and this is kind of like productivity 101. Oh, make a to- do list, write down what you need to do, and then just do those things.

(26:19):

Okay, great. Doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. And I’ll tell you why it doesn’t work because to- do lists have no constraints. And so what happens is to- do lists become this register of things I want to have done, but do we do the hard work? No. Do we do the important work? No. We do the easy stuff. We do the urgent stuff. We don’t do the stuff that really moves our lives and careers forward. So I remember I used to…

Dr. Sarah (26:45):

And the list keeps growing. You keep adding.

Nir (26:46):

Exactly. Exactly. So what happens? You get home from work, the end of a long day, you’ve been running around like crazy, and now you have a million things on the to- do list. You look at it, at the end of the day, you say, “I didn’t do all those things.” And so what does that do to your psyche? What does that do to your self-image if day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, you tell yourself, “I didn’t do what I said I was going to do, loser.” And so what people then start telling themselves, “Well, I must not be good at time management. I must have a short attention span. I must have something broken about me. I must be morally failing somehow.” No, it’s not that you’re broken. It’s that this stupid time management technique is broken because to- do lists have no constraints.

(27:25):

Whereas a time box calendar gives you constraints. The constraint is 24 hours in a day. And that forces you to make trade-offs because this is one of the most important lessons I learned writing the book was you cannot call something a distraction unless you know what it distracted you from. I’m going to say it again. It’s so important. You can’t call something a distraction unless you know what it distracts you from. So I can’t tell you how many times I hear people saying, “Oh my goodness, the world is so distracting. Did you see what Trump did and did you see what happened on Twitter and did you see in the news and did my kids want this and my boss wants that? Oh, so distracting.” And I say, “Wow, that’s really tough. What did you get distracted from exactly? What did you plan to do? Not your to- do list. What was on your calendar?” And you know what they show me?

(28:11):

Nothing. Blank space. So part of being an adult, ladies and gentlemen, if you want your adult card, if you’re a child or if you’re retired, ignore this advice. Part of being an adult is you have to plan your day. Okay? That’s not rocket science. This is not asking too much, folks. Plan out. I want to go to the gym. I want to be with my kids. I want to play video games. You want to play video games? Yeah. Awesome. Play video games. Watch Netflix, but do it according to your schedule. I literally have time to go on social media in my calendar.

(28:47):

Because now I’m not using it for distraction. I’m using it as traction. What’s the difference? Traction is any action that pulls you towards what you said you were going to do. So anything you say you’re going to do in advance, that’s traction. Distraction is anything that is not that. So if you said, “I’m going to play video games for half an hour because I like video games.” Awesome. Enjoy it. Right? Why is that wrong? There’s nothing wrong with playing video games or going on social media or watching Netflix. It’s fine. Enjoy your life. Do it. Why is playing video games bad, but watching golf on TV? That’s okay. What’s the difference? Fair enough. Enjoy it. But do it on your schedule, not the social media companies or any media companies for that matter. Do it on your schedule. Don’t do it because you’re trying to escape something.

(29:34):

Do it because that’s what you said you were going to do in advance. We kind of skipped around a little bit. There’s four steps. So we went to step two before step one.

Dr. Sarah (29:41):

Okay. Well, let’s go to step one then.

Nir (29:43):

Yeah. So we talked about traction. We talked about distraction. Now we need to ask ourselves what prompts us to these actions? Why do we go off track? And the answer is that 10% of the time it’s because of your phone. So 10% of the time that you check your phone and study These have shown this, we’ve done these time studies that show that only 10% of the time that you check your phone, is it because of a ping ding or ring? 10%. People don’t realize that. People think, oh, I got distracted because my phone rang or I got some notification. That’s why I got distracted. Only 10% of time. The other 90% of the time that we check our devices, 90%. It’s not because of an external trigger. It’s not because of a ping ding or ring outside of us. It’s because of what’s happening inside of us.

(30:26):

These are called internal triggers. What are internal triggers? Internal triggers are uncomfortable emotional states that we seek to escape. Boredom, loneliness, uncertainty, anxiety. That is the source. If you monitor why we check our devices, 90% of the time it’s because we are trying to escape an uncomfortable feeling.

Dr. Sarah (30:48):

Yeah. That tracks. And this is going back to this idea of what we were talking earlier about boredom and white space tolerance atrophying. It’s okay to be still. I’ve become addicted to noise in my head. I need to have a podcast on or I need to be looking at something or thinking about something or having some type of external stimulation because to stand in line at the grocery store and just be is uncomfortable.

Nir (31:23):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (31:24):

But I’m practicing it because it’s good for you too.

Nir (31:28):

Yeah. And in fact, not only is it good for you, it’s an amazing opportunity. So this bleeds a little bit into my next book, so I’m kind of confusing the two tracks, but my next book is about the power of beliefs. It’s called Beyond Belief.

(31:41):

And so I’ve completely rejiggered the way I look at these triggers, like boredom, loneliness, uncertainty, fatigue, anxiety. The breakthrough for me, what really changed in my life is that when I feel these uncomfortable sensations, I don’t say, how do I escape it? I don’t like this feeling. I say, good, good. Back to my writing. One of the techniques I talked about in Indistractable is having a personal mantra. So when I set that timer for 10 minutes, the 10 minute rule, now I have a choice to make. I can either get back to the task at hand or I can surf the urge. And one of the techniques I use for surfing the urge is a personal mantra. My personal mantra now, I’ll share it with you, you can steal it, you can make up your own, doesn’t matter. My personal mantra, I take a deep breath and I say to myself, “This is what it feels like to get better.

(32:35):

This is what it feels like to get better.” Just reminding myself that this is an opportunity for growth, that if this was easy, everyone would do it. If it was easy, what’s the challenge? What’s the fun of that? And in fact, because it’s difficult, because I want to doomscroll at night, because I want to check email when I said I was going to read a book or whatever the case might be, because it’s difficult, that’s the point.

Dr. Sarah (33:00):

Yeah.

Nir (33:00):

That’s the opportunity for growth. So it becomes a good thing as opposed to, I think we’re so obsessed in society by being happy all the time and being contented and never feeling discomfort. That’s not what it’s all about.

Dr. Sarah (33:11):

But I love that because it’s so self-compassionate and it’s process focused, not outcome focused. That’s right.This is the it right here.

Nir (33:26):

This is the it. That’s exactly right. And exactly with parenting. I mean, to me, that was a breakthrough with my daughter. We all go through tough times with raising our kids. The part, and I’m super proud, I don’t want to start tearing up here, but my daughter’s our pride and joy. And I think because when I tell people, I have a teenage daughter, I would say probably like nine times out of 10, people say, “Oh, I’m so sorry. That must be so hard.” I’m like, “What are you talking about? ” It’s the best. We made a friend. We go surfing together. We have a Saturday morning breakfast that we do every week and she never lets me miss it. If I say, “Hey, I have to reschedule,” she’s like, “Okay, but what are we going to reschedule for? ” She wants to spend time with me. Is there any better compliment for a dad than a teenage girl that wants to spend time with me? It’s the best. I feel like I won the lottery.

Dr. Sarah (34:19):

That’s amazing. And so just even to circle back to your comment about how you made that one moment where you missed her, you looked at your phone and she wandered off, it didn’t break anything. I mean, if that was every day all the time, you probably might not be having the same relationship right now, but you can repair that. It’s not- Totally true. Parents are so, they get so hard on themselves for the things they do that aren’t optimal in parenting, but gosh, we’re human. And when we recognize that and say, “Ooh, I didn’t like how that felt. I’m going to do something a little different next time.” Those are great opportunities. Again, this beyond belief, self-talk, if you say, “Oh, see, I’m just such a crappy parent.” Okay, well, where do you go from there? But if you’re like, “Ooh, I got to do something different next time. Oh, now we’re on a different path.”

Nir (35:15):

I got goosebumps as you said that, because I think the turning point for me, especially when I was writing Beyond Belief and learning about the power of these beliefs is when I became vulnerable with her. When I realized that this challenge, whatever the challenge was, whether it was with distraction, whether it was just a conflict I was having with her, a difference of opinion or whatever, everybody has disagreements. When I saw those things, not as a statement of my character or my parenting or anything having to do with me, it’s not my identity, it’s just an opportunity for growth. That’s all it is. It’s just an opportunity for growth. What a relief. Yes. What a fricking relief to have that realization of, okay, this is a blessing.This is an opportunity for growth. That’s all it is. And particularly with distraction, I think a lot of parents feel like they have to be the cops.

(36:11):

They’re the ones that has to tell their kids when to get off the device and what to do this and when to do that. And that does nothing but push your kid away. At least in my experience, every time I say, “Oh, I know better. I’m the adult. You should do what I tell you because I’ve got experience and you don’t.” That never ever worked as opposed to, “Hey, this is a problem. How do we figure out together?” Especially when I said, “Look, I am struggling with this. I am checking my device too much.” I don’t know if you had the same experience with your kids, but when you say you’re sorry, you as the adult, you’re sorry about something you did. Magic words. Right? Doesn’t your kid just light up and they suddenly become receptive to everything you say after that?

Dr. Sarah (36:53):

Yes. Especially when it’s authentic.

Nir (36:54):

Of course, of course. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (36:57):

And when it’s something that you might be saying you’re sorry for is a thing that you often get mad at them for, especially take tech. I am often yelling at my kids, time to turn off the TV. You’ve been watching too much all day. Come on, guys. And then when I say to my kids who often hear me tell them, “It’s time to stop doing the thing you want to do. ” And I say, “You know what? I have had so much trouble getting off of my phone today and just being with you and I’m sorry.” And I look back at today, I did not like how it felt for me, that you didn’t either. And I just, “Ugh, I’m sorry. I’m going to try something different tomorrow.” And I’ve done a lot. I put app blockers on my phone that lock me out of certain things from … I’m like too cheap.

(37:55):

I don’t want to pay for that. The thing allows me to have multiple different blocks. So I’m like, “Fine.” I have to really be present. I want to be really present in parenting from around 8:00 PM to 8:00 AM. So I just blocked myself out and then that’s good for me too because it keeps me from scrolling super late at night on my phone, but I was getting distracted at bedtime

(38:21):

And I was getting distracted in the morning time with my kids. And those are two times that I’m like, “That’s not cool for me. ” For me, with me, I’m not cool with myself being unavailable in those times because I’m getting distracted. And so I just locked myself out because I don’t have the willpower and I will go on and be like, oh, and you were talking about internal triggers. I was also curious, can an internal trigger also be an idea like, “Oh, I have to order that thing on Amazon for the kid’s thing tomorrow.” And so I go, my internal idea prompts me to go on my phone, but I go on Amazon to order the striped t-shirt my kid needs for their school activity, whatever play, but 25 minutes later, I’m doing something else on the phone.

Nir (39:10):

Okay. So you sound exactly like I used to before Indistract, but like to the T.

Dr. Sarah (39:16):

I’m so following all your protocols.

Nir (39:18):

This is so good. So maybe I can kind of help. So the most difficult thing for me was to come up with a framework, like steps that you can see in your brain that when you have these challenges, for me, it’s been very, very helpful to be like, “Okay, I see where the problem is. ” So let’s just walk through the four steps real quick and then I’ll exactly show you how in what you just said, everything fits together. Amazing. Coach me through this. Step number one is master internal triggers. If you don’t master your internal triggers, they become your master. So when you find yourself, and this is the most important step, if you don’t do this first and foremost, none of the tips and the tricks and the life hacks and the apps, none of that stuff will work because you’ll always find a way.

(39:57):

You always get distracted, right? If it’s not the phone, it’s television. If it’s not television, it’s a book. If it’s not a book, it’s a drink. If it’s not a drink, you always get distracted by something. There’s always room for distraction, always, always, always. So number one has to be, why am I getting distracted? And distraction is not a moral failing. It’s not a character flaw. It’s not a broken brain. It’s simply that you haven’t learned this skill of dealing with impulses. That’s it. It’s just a very simple skill of, when I feel that itch, when I feel that urge, how do I break that stimulus to response? Victor Frankel said that’s where our humanity lies between the stimulus and the response. So all you’re doing is simply, when I feel that, let me just check that quick thing on Amazon in order real quick.

(40:39):

It’s just take a second. Nope, I’ve got a different skill. 10 minute rule, personal mantra, reimagine the trigger. There’s a dozen different things that you can do. That’s step number one, master the internal trigger. Nothing will work unless you do that first. Second step is making time for traction, which is where you have time. You already did some of this of 80 PM to 8:00 AM. I would invite you to be even a little bit more granular and say, in that time, how much time do I want for myself? I got to get ready for bed. I need to shower. I need some time. Maybe I want to read a book. How much time do I need for myself? That’s the you domain. How much time do I want for my relationships? That’s your family, your friends, everybody in your relationships. And then finally the work domain. And so your whole day will essentially be into those three life domains. So knowing in advance, okay, if reading your kids a bedtime story is important, that’s on the calendar. If being by yourself is important, that’s on your calendar. So now you don’t have to make that decision.

(41:33):

Part of what people mistake as a lack of willpower is just a lack of planning. It’s just that in that moment, I know I shouldn’t do that, but I’m not really sure what I should do. And so when you, I do this once a week, Sunday nights at 8:00 PM, I just plan my day. I just plan my week ahead according to my values. I turn my values into time. And what are values? Values or attributes of the person you want to become. So I ask myself, how would the person I want to become spend their time? And invariably, you will have to make trade offs, right? That’s the whole point of the exercise. But you will know now instead of saying, “Oh, I know I shouldn’t do that, but what should I do? Let me just check my phone.” It’s, “Okay, I see exactly what I should do. Now it’s time for me. Now it’s time for this. ” You know exactly.

Dr. Sarah (42:15):

Basically taken this, this is great executive functioning skills, right? Because in the moment, decisions are challenging, but if you’ve pre-decided, if you’ve pre-planned when you’re super regulated, you’re already in that sort of like thoughtful, mindful, intentional place, which is the great time to be making decisions of how you want to spend your time. And then you’ve done all that pre-thinking, then in the hectic moments when everyone’s like in the kitchen yelling at you, but they want more dessert and it’s like, “Oh, you know what? It’s time to go upstairs for bed because that’s the time it is right now.”

Nir (42:56):

And let me tell you, when I started doing this, I would yell at my daughter, “It’s past your bedtime. Go to bed. It’s past your bedtime.” And then she looked at me one day and she says, “Daddy, do you have a bedtime?” I didn’t. Do you now? I sure do. The evidence is unequivocal. We all need rest for your mental health, for your physical health. You got to get sleep. We all know this. This is not controversial anymore. We all need a bedtime because if you don’t have a bedtime, you know what happens? You scroll it away, you watch it away, everything but the thing you said you were going to do. So having that schedule, and it sounds like it’s a big deal. It maybe takes me 10 minutes a week, like literally 10 minutes a week, Sunday night, 8:00 PM. My wife and I both make a time box calendar. We’ve been married now for 20, it’ll be 25 years in September. It saved our marriage.

(43:43):

Because we used to constantly get in these fights of just a quick side here. So for years, my wife and I would get into these fights because she would say, “Honey, the trash needs to be taken out. Don’t you see the trash or our daughter needs to be fed or whatever. Don’t you see these things?” And I said to her, first of all, a first thing I said that has never worked in the history of mankind, “Honey, calm down.”

(44:07):

That’s never worked. Of course, I used to say that, “Honey, just calm down. What’s the video?” I said, “If you need me to do something, just ask. What’s the big deal? Why are you getting so upset? Just ask.” And what I didn’t realize that I now realize is that I was asking her to do yet another job. Now she’s my manager. Right now she has another child to raise. So now she doesn’t have to do that anymore because every week we sit down together and we do what’s called a schedule sync. And again, it takes maybe 15 minutes. We do it every Sunday night. She looks at her calendar. I look at my calendar. Okay, our daughter needs to go there. You’re going to do this then. Dinner’s on you this time. We just do this quick schedule sync, no more arguments. We know exactly who does what, what has to get done when.

(44:51):

It’s solved all that problem because we’ve turned our values into time. Because what I realized, I thought my wife just needed to suck more time out of me. She thought I wasn’t spending enough time with her. That’s not it at all. All she needed was predictability. She just wanted me to be a person who lives with integrity. If I say I’m going to be there, I’m not going to call and say, “Oh honey, it’s busy day at the office. Sorry, I can’t come home tonight for dinner.” No. If I say I’m going to be at home at a certain time, I’m going to be there. If I say I’m going to be with my daughter, I’m going to be there. So the point of this is not to be a regimented drill sergeant, do exactly what you say you’re going to do. It’s when you carve out that time, not only you know what you will be doing, you know what you will not be doing. So when I have time on my calendar with my daughter for Saturday morning breakfast, we don’t know what we’re going to do. People say a lot to, “Oh, I can’t schedule my time. I need to be spontaneous. What if this? What if that somebody needs me? ” I get it. I don’t know what I’m going to do with my daughter on Saturday morning. Maybe we’ll go get breakfast, maybe we’ll go to the park, maybe we’ll go search. We don’t know what we’re going to do, but I know what I will not be doing. I will not be on my phone.

Dr. Sarah (45:50):

Anything but what you’re going to do with your daughter, right? It’s protected time.

Nir (45:54):

Exactly. It’s protected time. So that means nobody needs to contact me. I don’t need to check my phone. I don’t need to order anything because that time has been set aside in advance. So we got to step two. Let me just talk about three and four real quick just to round it out. Step three. So to your example, by the way, happen to me all the time. Let me just do this quick thing on Amazon before I know it. 15 minutes later, I’ve got a whole shopping list. So that’s step number three around removing the external triggers, hacking back the external triggers. So the solution to that, it’s going to sound kind of silly when I say it. Good old pen and paper. They’re like replacing. So I don’t sleep next to my cell phone anymore, but I do have a notepad by my bed because this kind of thing can happen.

(46:37):

So thinking in advance, how do I remove those external triggers so I don’t have to wait till the last minute? Because if you wait till the last minute, if the cigarette is in your hands, you’re going to smoke it. If the chocolate cake is on a fork on the way to your mouth, you’re going to eat it. If you sleep next to your cell phone, it’s going to be the first thing you reach for in the morning.

Dr. Sarah (46:52):

Yeah.

Nir (46:52):

You leave it to the last minute, they’re going to get you. But if you plan ahead, there’s no distraction you can’t overcome. So hacking back the external triggers, by the way, with kids especially, anything that beeps, buzzes or boops should not be in the bedroom. Because the most important thing you can do for your kid’s psychological wellbeing is to let them sleep without interruption. So no cell phones, of course, no computers in the bedroom, no television, no fish tank, no pets. Anything that can disrupt sleep should not be in the bedroom. Big, no, no. So that’s hacking back the external triggers. There’s a whole section on that. Finally, the fourth step is what you did. Now we can put everything in its place where you did what’s called a pact or pre-commitment where you use a technology or some kind of promise that says, nope, when all else fails, there’s a fail safe. There’s a firewall against distraction.

(47:43):

It works very well if you do in the right order. If you jump to that technique, it will fail. First you have to master internal triggers, then make time for traction, then hack back the external triggers. And then as the fourth and final step, you’re absolutely right. As the last line of defense, like for example, in our household, the internet router every night turns off at 10:00 PM automatically. Well, could we turn it back on? Of course we could. But now I have to fiddle with it and plug it back in and change the alarm and all that stuff. It’s just that little bit of friction to remind me, “Ah, that’s not really what I want to do right now.” But that’s the last step. If you do it first, it won’t last.

Dr. Sarah (48:20):

That makes so much sense. And I very much appreciate this coaching because I have been … It’s like I’ve gotten sort of like 80% on a lot of these places, but I haven’t taken it where I really can cross the finish line. I do time block. And actually, it’s so funny because a lot of your work is … We’ve been talking about executive functioning. I work with a lot of kids who have ADHD. I myself have ADHD, but I work with a lot of kids who have it and I cannot tell you how many times I get the massive eye roll from a 10 year old when I’m like, “Let’s talk about getting you a planner, like a paper planner.” And they’re like … I remember one time I had this kid I was working with who has ADHD and OCD, which is a tough combo because he would both worry about all the things he had to do and then get incredibly distracted and resistant to doing the things he had to do, but he was holding it in his head and it was driving him very, very bonkers.

(49:25):

He would get very stressed and he’s very sort of obsessive about time. Time was really stressful for him. He never felt like he had enough of it, very central focus for him. And one of the things that we did was, I think he was nine at the time, and I was like, “Okay, so tell me all the things you’re holding in your head,” which is this never ending to- do list to your point. And he was listing all the things he had to do for school. And I was like, “Okay, well, what do you have to do for today?” And he’s like, “Well, just these things.” I’m like, “How about tomorrow?” He’s like, “Well, just these things.” And so I get this bucket of Legos out and I pull out different color blocks and I say, “Okay, these blocks, the red ones are writing, the yellow ones are math, the blue ones are reading, whatever.” And I was like, “Each one is 10 minutes.” So we wrote down all the stuff he was holding in his head for the week and frankly for many weeks future, because some of them are projects.

(50:20):

This is a nine year old. It doesn’t have that much work, but he was so stressed. And I made him just map it all out in blocks so he could physically see and feel the quantity, but also then I put a piece of paper over half the blocks and I was like, “So this is what you have to hold right now. This is gone and what does that feel like? ” And you could feel like there was a pressure, this exhale of like, “Oh, that’s manageable. I can hold that much in my head. That feels better.” And so it’s like, I know a lot of these things, very hard to do it for yourself, but yeah.

Nir (50:59):

Well, this is the kind of thing, and I worry a lot about this because what you taught him is a skill that no pill will cure. A lot of people in the ADHD community, again, I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD as well, a lot of people think that somehow the pill will fix this stuff. It doesn’t. Pills don’t teach skills. Pills don’t teach skills. It is essential for this young boy to learn this skill. The world is not going to adapt to, “Oh, I have ADHD. So sorry, I can’t.” You can learn this skill. It is a learnable skill like any other. And unfortunately, I don’t know if you see this on your side, I see a lot of folks saying, “Eh, my kid has ADHD. They can’t. Impossible.” I mean, I’m sure there are very rare edge cases, but this is the kind of thing we have got to teach our kids and we’ve got to teach ourselves. We have to lead by example.

Dr. Sarah (51:53):

Yes. And I think what I also do with this kid and with a lot of my kids is I do teach this time blocking because I think it’s really important because, and you talked about this and I think it’s worth highlighting is there’s no … Those Lego blocks, we were talking about homework assignments and a lot of people will be like, the whole point of planning is these productive things, like the homework or the book writing or the project for work or the working out, the good have tos. But I have actually had this same kid and other kids I work with. I’m like, start with the video games.

Nir (52:34):

Yes! I love this. Amen.

Dr. Sarah (52:34):

It’s really important to you to play video games. Okay. How much time do you feel like is a okay amount of time for you to play video games? And we would look at that in the context of all the things he wants to do. I would make him make the full list, video games and more. And I’d say, “Okay, well looking at all of this, video games is the most important to you. Okay. Where do you want to put that in your schedule? Let’s put it in now. Those are your rocks. What else is a rock for you? Oh, spending time, I want to watch movies with my mom on the weekend. Okay. I want to have a sleepover with my friend this day.” Okay, great. These are all in the schedule. Now let’s fill in the pebbles, other things that have to happen, other things that other people want you to do, other things that you don’t want to do, but you want the outcome. So okay. So then we put those in, but we work around the things that are his priorities and you were talking about that. As long as it’s an intention, there’s no moral judgment on what your intent … And with parents, this is really important because if you decide what your kid’s plan A is, what their priorities are, what their rocks are, and they’re not in alignment with what they feel like are their rocks, you’re going to have a lot of friction with them. But if you say, “What is your biggest, most important thing? Okay, let’s put it in there first. Now let’s see what else can we fit?” They’re going to be much more cooperative and open to this process.

Nir (53:59):

It’s so true. One of the first pieces of advice when parents say, “How do I get my kid to stop playing Fortnite or Roblox or get them off social media?” One of my first pieces of advice is, “Are you planning for it? ” Sit down with them and actually plan that time because if you don’t do that, a lot of parents say, “Well, do everything else and then you can play.” But what’s that kid doing the entire time? They’re thinking, “Okay, am I going to get time? I’m going to get time.” That’s what they’re constantly ruminating on of, “Can I get time?” Whereas, yeah, of course you get time because 7:00 PM to 7:45 or 8:00, whatever time that you decide, that’s the calendar we made and we’re going to stick to it. What kills me is a lot of times parents will then barge in and say, “Yeah, but you haven’t done this.

(54:37):

We haven’t all. ” And they interrupt that time. So the kid learns to not trust his parent to say like, “Hey, if you gave me that time, leave me alone. Let me do the thing I want to do. ” And it’s incredible when you ask. So with my daughter, we asked her at six years old, she was going a little overboard with iPad time and we asked her at six years old, we said, “How much time do you want to spend with your iPad?” And this was when she was just six. And I remember she thought she was getting one over on us and she said two episodes and two episodes, because that’s what she did with the iPad, she liked to watch kid shows and two episodes, I did the math, it’s about 45 minutes. Well, there is not even one study that shows that three hours or less of age appropriate, of course it has to be age appropriate.

(55:21):

Lots of bad stuff you don’t want your kid watching, but as long as it’s age appropriate, three hours or less of age appropriate screen time, I think above the age of two or three, you don’t want kids exposed too much younger than two, but above the age of two or three is fine. It’s fine. There’s nothing bad about it per se. So 45 minutes, I got no problem with, but here’s what I said. I said, “Okay, fine, but I don’t want to be the cop. I’m not going to be the police officer. I’m not going to tell you to get off of the device. How can you make sure that you know it’s time to put the iPad away?” And she thought for a bit and then she said, “Well, how about this? ” At the time, we had a microwave oven that was below the countertop. And many times we would use it had like a little timer function

(56:02):

And we would use it if we were baking something or whatever, we would set the timer. And so she saw that. And she said, how about, because she could get to that level, it was below the countertop. She said, “Well, how about I use the microwave and when the 45 minutes are up, I’ll put the iPad away.” It worked. And now actually, even now as a 17 year old, I hear her telling her device. She just tells her device 45 minutes or whatever and she watches YouTube. She taught herself how to play guitar. I’ve never paid for a lesson. 100% she taught herself on YouTube. That’s amazing. I mean, there’s so much good that they can get out of it. It’s silly. It’s shortsighted to say, “Oh, all screen time is bad.” It’s about what you’re doing, how much you’re doing, what would the kid be doing instead of doing that.

(56:38):

So our kids eventually, our job, at least I think our job as parents is not to raise a kid, it’s to raise a future adult. So if she only does the right thing when I tell her to do the right thing, I’m not raising a future adult, I’m raising a child because when she goes off to college or gets a job or whatever, I’m not going to be there. So she’s got to learn this essential skill of moderating herself. And so she does that by figuring how to deal with internal triggers, by making a schedule, by hacking back the external triggers and by preventing distraction with packs.

Dr. Sarah (57:09):

I love this. This is so good. I can’t wait. You guys, you have to go get this book. I’m so grateful for you to come on this podcast and share all this with me. And I’m really excited to put some of these ideas into action. People want to get aware of … If they want to get connect with you, they want to follow what you’re doing next. Definitely before this other new awesome book comes out Beyond Beef. Okay. That’s it. Amazing. Where can they connect with you?

Nir (57:40):

Absolutely. Yeah. So my website is nirandfar.com. It’s spelled like my first name, N-I-R. So that’s nirandfar.com. And the book we’ve been speaking about is Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. And I’ve got a new book coming out in March called Beyond Belief, which is all about the three powers of beliefs.

Dr. Sarah (57:58):

That’s amazing. Well, you clearly have hacked this and I’m very, very impressed. As a fellow, neurodiverse brain, I really appreciate how much work goes into this. And so it’s been really lovely talking with you.

Nir (58:15):

I appreciate it. Well, it all comes from solving my own problems, right? And I have the problems, so I’ve got plenty of things to share.

Dr. Sarah (58:22):

Amazing. Thank you so much.

Nir (58:24):

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Sarah (58:32):

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