441. “Gentle parenting” isn’t enough: Why kids need both emotional validation and boundaries with Dr. Siggie Cohen

Dr. Siggie Cohen (00:00):

You validate the emotions and you monitor the behavior and you allow a child to recognize there are some boundaries. Whoa, uh-uh not okay to do this when you are angry. Definitely okay to be angry. I’m not stopping you from being angry. And that’s a lot of time the confusion, the over-accommodation, over-empathizing, over-validation, which parents do because they feel like they need to be there for their child, takes away actually from the child’s ability to cope.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:38):

There has never been more parenting advice available than there is today. And yet somehow many parents have never felt more confused. We are told to validate every feeling, set firm boundaries, avoid punishment, foster independence, repair after rupture, build resilience, and somehow do it all perfectly. So it’s no wonder that so many parents find themselves second guessing every decision that they make and wondering if they’re helping their child or accidentally causing harm. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist, mom of two, and the host of Securely Attached. In this podcast, I’m joined each week by leaders in the field of medicine, psychology, psychiatry, and child development. And together we translate the science and research into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights. And I’m so excited to be joined today by Dr. Siggie Cohen. Dr. Siggie is a child development specialist, parenting expert, and educator who has spent more than three decades working with thousands of families.

(01:37):

She’s built a devoted following by helping parents understand what’s really happening beneath their children’s behavior while offering calm, practical guidance they can actually use in everyday life. She’s also the author of the new book, You Are the Parent: Move From Over Parenting to Balance Parenting and Become the Leader Your Child Needs. In this conversation, Dr. Siggie challenges one of the biggest misconceptions in modern parenting, that we have to choose between being emotionally responsive or setting limits. Instead, she explains why children need both. We talk about why validating emotions doesn’t mean accommodating every feeling. We talk about why behavior change happens through relationship rather than perfect scripts or consequences, and how consistency matters far more than constantly searching for the next parenting strategy. We also explore some of the most common misunderstandings about child development, how to respond to hitting and other challenging behaviors without losing connection, and why understanding our own triggers may be one of the most powerful parenting tools that we have.

(02:43):

Most importantly, this conversation is an invitation to step out of the fear and self-doubt that so many parents are carrying today. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re doing too much, not enough, or simply the wrong thing, I think you’ll leave this episode feeling more confident, more grounded, and more equipped to be the calm, steady leader that your child needs.

(03:09):

Hello. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I’m so excited that you are here.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (03:15):

Thank you so much. And I am excited as well.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:19):

Yes. So your new book, You Are the Parent. It comes out next week. Congratulations.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (03:25):

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:28):

I’m so excited about this because I’ve been following your work for a very long time. As a mom, I have a seven year old and an eight year old now, but I’ve been following you as a mom since my kids were very little. And just as a fellow supporter and lover of parents, I just really enjoy just your approach to communicating to parents. And so I’m just so glad that you are having this book. I think this is going to be a very good thing for parents.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (03:59):

Wow.

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:00):

Yes.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (04:00):

Thank you, Sarah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:04):

So for parents who are listening and maybe have seen your Instagram posts or maybe they’re not as familiar with your work, can you start off just by helping all of our listeners understand a little bit about the work that you’ve been doing for all these years and how it sort of culminated in realizing this is the thing that I think is missing for parents?

Dr. Siggie Cohen (04:33):

Right. Yeah. Thank you for that. So I really truly think that my role has always been to support, to help and explain what is really going on underneath the surface and to bring some comfort. And so taking it all the way to here and now where I think that there’s so much fear and panic and anxiety and warnings, so many warnings, don’t and only and everything is in such an extreme, almost hysterical kind of way. And I’m like, let’s bring it back, not to the past, not to old ways, but not all the way to this other type of extreme. So here we are. Moderation is a combination of it all with some pauses and key factor balance. So I think that this is what I’m here for, to help you remember that balance is what grounds us, that balance is a combination of thoughtfulness, mindfulness, understanding, knowledge, pause, recognition in the moment, but also having the big picture. That’s everything. And when you practice it, you can really be in that balanced way as a parent and as a person, because it’s coming at us from all directions as well.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:10):

Yes, totally. And I personally, I find the way that you approach explaining things to parents, which is like you described this, you seem to have this ability to take a big, big zoomed out perspective and through that offer some insights about blind spots and where we’re getting too lost in the weeds and the extremes and the noise. Can you talk a little bit about your background and all the kind of training and clinical work you’ve done in the past that’s given you this insight and how it helped you to translate this for parents in these practical ways? Because you have a way of seeing what’s really going on and then giving people the, “Ah, that’s what I was trying to do. Thank you. Okay.”

Dr. Siggie Cohen (07:10):

Yes. Very true. So I think that my journey into what it is that I am doing is a combination of so many things, but it’s somewhat in reverse. I come from a place where I just have an affinity, an understanding, a comfort with children. Basically, that’s what it is. I enjoy being around them. I can almost intuitively get what’s going on. And I think that this is where I was way before I became what I am now. And so I brought it almost from first the field, the experience, and then combined it with obviously formal education and knowledge that I acquired over the years through not just me being a student, but also me being a teacher. And all of it is given me what you were saying, that ability to have a clear insight into the macro and the micro of everything that’s going on.

(08:23):

So I think that when I went back to school and studied and learned all these different theories, a lot of them resonated with me, not because they were new, but almost because they felt like, “Oh yeah, that’s exactly what I think and what I saw and what I realized.” It’s almost like I took that and the experience that I already had and combined or glued it together and this is why I am where I am, I think.

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:58):

Yes. I mean, I’m curious, I know you worked for many years as a teacher, like a preschool directly with children, but then you also taught…

Dr. Siggie Cohen (09:11):

College.

Dr. Sarah Bren (09:13):

Right. So it’s like getting the source material by working with the kids and then translating that into educational material for the adults going to do that.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (09:23):

Exactly. Yeah. And by the way, I learned a lot from my students, from their life experiences, from where they come from. I love all that human experience that I can really learn from as well. And so yes, first I was a preschool teacher, then I taught parenting classes with the children around. So it was managing the parents and the children all in one area, which also I think not just helped me teach better, but taught me to be able to support parents of how we multitask and how we can multitask in a conscious and a mindful kind of way rather than, “Oh, what’s going on in the chaos? And I got this, I got that.” It’s like, “Yeah, we have all this going on. There’s so much noise and things spill and break and there’s conflict and I have to do this and I have to do that. And I also have to pay attention and I remember all these other things.” All of it was actually a great model for all these parents to recognize, “You got this. We got this. We can do it.” So even that was such a great platform for my experience. And then yes, teaching teachers to be helped me tremendously. I loved that job as well. And I taught college for many years, I think more years than I was a preschool teacher, but it’s all somehow there. And then yes, my practice and how the practice ran as a place for children and parents all together. It was a big room, a big giant playroom.

(11:14):

There were very little restrictions. I helped parents kind of sit back and sort of observe and watch their children as we all interact in this parameter. And once again, just modeling how we don’t have to be on edge. We can actually bring some level of comfort when we are around children, which helps us and helps them as well.

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:44):

Yes. I love that arc because I think one thing I’ve noticed in trying to also. A lot of my work is working with parents and children together. And I think once I’ve moved from sometimes working with just kids and then sometimes working with just the parents, which I still do, but whenever I can intersect the two, whenever I’m able to work with the whole family system at once, it’s this magical synergistic impact on how quickly things start to click for families.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (12:28):

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love that and I agree. And I also do, yes, I work with the children, sometimes separately the parents. I always tell them it’s a lot of me just getting to know you all. It’s not therapizing the child. It’s not even just guiding you. It’s really kind of like having another perspective on your dynamic and seeing the blind spots and recognizing maybe some subtext that obviously gets overlooked when we’re so much in it. And it’s like I’m shining a light and I go, so he said this and you reacted like that, but I think actually what he meant and what the trigger was, and what if we see it a little differently and what if we react or respond differently and see how things shift. So that kind of combination I think is so crucial for us as people, as professionals that want to help the whole family because sometimes they’ll come to you with that one child, right?

(13:34):

And then sometimes they’ll tell me, “But he doesn’t really want to talk.” I mean, the kids that I see on Zoom, by the way, crawl on the floor, show me the ceiling. And I’m like, “That’s fine. They’re kids.” Even in my office, they sit with their backs to me as they’re building Legos. And I’m like, “That’s okay. That kind of interaction in the same space doesn’t have one way and no other, right?” But I also sometimes say, “Do you want to bring your brother or your sister? Do you want them all to be?” And it’s like parents are like, “What?” And I’m like, “Yeah, bring everybody because it’s not just the child that causes the problems or has more. It’s the dynamic of everything combined all together that affects everybody, including that child, obviously. But seeing it all together helps and also diffusing some of that focus, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (14:39):

Mhmm.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (14:40):

I don’t want parents to feel like,” Oh, I’m failing and I don’t want a child to feel like I’m failing and I’m doing it all wrong. “So there’s this diffusion of spreading the focus on everyone. We’re all in this together.

Dr. Sarah Bren (14:58):

Yeah. That’s such a powerful reframe, especially because if there is a kid who is sort of the one who’s getting all of the attention, in part because of their behaviors are kind of attracting all the attention, but then there’s this sort of like bi-directional feedback or a self-fulfilling prophecy or a feedback loop that maintains it. And it can be so hard to get out of that dance. So when you find a family kind of stuck entrenched in a bit of a dance where like, yes, no question, there’s behaviors coming out of a particular kid that aren’t functional, they’re disrupting the family system and we want to do something about it, but we just keep to be kind of playing whack-a-mole or Groundhog’s Day, which is just like a broken record and it’s not. And how do you help parents notice they’re in that dance with their kid and then reset it? Because that’s, I think, kind of step one for them.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (16:04):

Yeah. So one of the first things that I notice, and this brings us back to where we are now in modern parenting, is how parents are very resourceful, but they are switching between all these different tactics and tricks and tools. They go to this approach and then this and this, and they come to me with that, but nothing works. Nothing works. I tried this. I tried the punishment. I tried the timeouts. I tried to be nice. I tried to say. I’m like, the inconsistency is number one, probably biggest problem. First and foremost, it’s not that we have to choose a lane and just stay. I’m not talking about being rigid. I’m talking about understanding why you do what you do and then actually do that rather than let’s just try something, try, try, try. It’s a buffet and I’m just going to taste everything. It’s overwhelming.

(17:00):

It’s overdone. And of course it doesn’t work. So consistency is first and foremost. So I help them recognize why they’ve been doing what they’ve been doing and it’s not working because they’re not feeding in a way the top to the pot, right? They’re not really feeding it to what is going on. We can’t just use some generic idea and do that unless we truly believe in it wholeheartedly, this is who we are. And then consistency helps and it does work. So back to when they come to me, I try to see what is going on so far, but I go a little back into who the parent is, what is going on a little bit with them. This is not psychoanalysis, but it is a little bit of a window into their background and where they’re coming from. And then to the dynamic, like who this child is in the family and what they’re actually triggering because that’s typically, it’s not just the child behavior, it’s what they’re triggering in the parent because of who the parent is.

(18:22):

And then working with that and also modeling different types of conversations, obviously giving the tools and saying we have to practice that. Now comes the hard part. But one of the things that I often tell parents when we talk and we kind of get to almost the end of it, I say, “Does any of it make sense to you?” And I want them to kind of go, “Oh yeah. Yeah.” Rather than, “So I was told not to do this and I read that you’re supposed to do this.” It’s not literal. It has to have some ownership for you.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:09):

Yes. It has to be digested.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (19:12):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:12):

And then kind of integrated so they can call upon it in a way that works within their schemas and the way they’re. They have to translate it into their own language.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (19:23):

Yes, absolutely. It’s very, very true, which is why I want to understand who they are, culture, background, religion, place in their family, right? Just in very quick way, I kind of accumulate a lot of that information because I want to make sure that it’s not just generic information. Okay, this behavior, this is the discipline, the punishment, the reaction. No, there’s something much more personal here that needs to work for you in order for it to work.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:56):

Yeah. It’s a relational approach.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (19:59):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (20:00):

Yeah. Which I’m biased, but I think that that is a much more effective approach than a behavioral management approach. I think you can manage behavior inside of a relational approach, but the relationships kind of got to be the vehicle and not the other way around.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (20:20):

Yes, absolutely. And you can’t just tweak behaviors. I mean, you’re missing a whole chunk. We’re not just dogs.

Dr. Sarah Bren (20:30):

Right. And I think that’s where parents, and I say this with zero judgment on if that’s been a strategy people have been using, because that is what, one, most people are teaching or what the relational approach is getting kind of overly reduced, like the soundbites getting constricted to just that ends up being the takeaway for sometimes for parents that they’re still kind of like being. They’re interpreting this is how you change the behavior versus if you shift the relationship, the behaviors will kind of shift on their own.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (21:17):

Yes, exactly. This is why the behavior will change organically actually, not by you tricking or sort of like handing these kind of like the stick or the carrot type training.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:35):

Right. And so if parents are taught to do this or that’s what they’re taking away from all of the content and stuff that’s out there, and then they’re trying and trying and trying so hard and they’re being so such good students trying, trying, trying, and it’s not working. And then they start to feel really defeated and start to question like, “Okay, well, I’m doing all the things like you said, I’ve tried this, I’ve tried this, I’ve tried this, I’ve tried this, nothing’s working.” So the logical next conclusion is there’s something wrong with my kid or there’s something wrong with our relationship or there’s something wrong with me as a parent. And that breaks my heart so much because that’s such a false conclusion. And that’s where I feel like the sort of parenting industrial complex is failing parents so terribly because we’re teaching them this.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (22:32):

Yeah, because most of the time what is out there and what parents zigzag between is either just trying to manage behaviors or taking it all the way to just being there for the emotions. I’m like, “We’re not one or the other. We are both. We do have to function. Behaviors do matter, and we do have emotions, but we can’t just place emotions as the main sort of driver of this train. We’re not just robots where you press a button and this is where we go. It’s got to be a combination of both.” And that’s what I mainly tell parents. We do manage behaviors, but we do it slightly differently, not the external way, more the internal way from the inside out. When I feel right, good, I actually naturally organically behave well.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:41):

Yeah. Yeah, because even the behavior isn’t. The way I think of it is if I feel good and I feel seen and included and agentful, then I’m actually organized and regulated. And that is what allows my behaviors to make sense and be intentional and be regulated and organized and effective. It’s the safety and the relationship and the sense of self that development leads to cognitive and physiological regulation, which then leads to a total byproduct, which happens to be organized and regulated behaviors. It’s not even a choice. It’s just a downstream effect of a regulated system and the regulated system is a downstream effect of that safe relationship, which that’s the work, that’s the take.

(24:44):

I love how you help parents, and you talk about this a lot in this book of not missing the forest through the trees of like, yeah, they want to be relationally attuned and validating of their kids and like you were just saying, they’ll do all that and just that, and then eventually lose steam because everything’s chaotic and not organized because there’s no clear structure for the kid to follow. And so then they eventually run out of steam and flip over to the high demand, I’m out of control, I’ve lost it, and now I’m going to be really demanding and threaten the behaviors and the whatever. So it’s like we end up going. We’re over-correcting and then because we’re in this extreme place of overcorrection of just validating emotions, just being attuned, just trying to help them feel like their emotions are seen, eventually we go straight to just all behaviors and we’re frustrated.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (25:54):

Yeah, definitely. And I say you want to do it simultaneously and at the same time, because you are there present, validating emotions, understanding, recognizing, but it doesn’t mean always accommodating those emotions. Children don’t need full accommodations. They’re very capable of also figuring things out on their own. We’re born with coping skills, resilience, problem solving abilities and so on. They just have to be practiced and that’s where you, the parent, are the coach for those behaviors while they’re practicing it on their own. So you validate the emotions and you monitor the behavior and you allow a child to recognize there are some boundaries, whoa, uh-uh not okay to do this when you are angry. Definitely okay to be angry. I’m not stopping you from being angry. And that’s a lot of time the confusion, the over accommodation, over empathizing, over validation, which parents do because they feel like they need to be there for their child, takes away actually from the child’s ability to cope because now there’s sort of like an understanding that you are going to make me feel good somehow, but for children it is by giving me what I want.

(27:20):

And that’s definitely a tricky place because we’re not supposed to get what we want all the time actually. And I don’t want to say it in any patronizing way. Well, we don’t always get what you. No, I just want to go, “Yeah, this is very tough when we don’t get what we want. I understand. No, you don’t understand. You’re not giving me what I want. No, I’m not. I know. And I do understand. And by the way, hey.” And I go back to that coaching trainer kind of mentor, leader role where I go, “Still this behavior cannot be even when you feel what you feel, but we could think of other ways for you to help yourself, for you to somehow contain your behavior and manage and come to regulation and all of that, obviously age appropriate, language-wise that resonates with children and so on, which is why it’s so important to understand child development, which is another thing that I help parents recognize.

(28:25):

What is the behind the scene of what goes on in your child’s brain developmentally? Therefore, they can understand this, cannot process that or process or understand this differently than what you think they do and so on and so forth. So all of that information that is in the book and obviously in all my work and with parents on a regular basis helps them do at some point what I basically, what you and I do, kind of like manage the whole scenario because we now acquired a whole bag of these kind of tools to do that. And it’s not just one area and another and another. It’s a combination of all of it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (29:24):

I want to take a quick pause here because one of the things that Dr. Siggie and I keep coming back to in this conversation is that most parents aren’t struggling because they don’t care enough or because they don’t know how they want to show up as a parent. They’re struggling because the actual reality of parenting in these challenging moments can be so hard. It’s one thing to understand that your child needs both empathy and boundaries. It’s another thing entirely to know what to actually say when your four year old is hitting, your eight year old is arguing about every request, or your teenager is shutting you out.

(29:57):

And that’s exactly why we offer parent coaching services at our practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group. Whether you’re navigating your child’s emotional outbursts, sibling conflict, anxiety, school challenges, or whatever unique parenting challenge you’re grappling with, our team is here to help.

(30:16):

We don’t believe in one size fits all parenting advice. We work with you to understand your unique child, your family dynamics, and your own parenting goals so that together we can develop practical evidence-based strategies that actually fit your life. Some parents come to us for a single strategy session to work through a specific challenge. Others choose ongoing coaching to build new patterns, strengthen their relationship with their child, and feel calmer and more confident over time. With both in-person services in Westchester, New York and virtual sessions worldwide, we make it convenient for you to receive support wherever you are.

(30:49):

To learn more about our resources for parents, along with our services for individuals, children, couples, co-parents, and families, you can click the link in the episode description or visit our website at upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. There, you can schedule a free 30 minute consultation call to talk to a member of our highly trained care team. All right, now let’s get back to my conversation with Dr. Siggie Cohen.

(31:16):

When you think about knowing what you know about child development and when you’re teaching parents about child development, what do you find are some of the common misconceptions parents are operating off of when it comes to child development and the kind of complexity they can comprehend or how much wide open space and choice can they tolerate? What do you notice?

Dr. Siggie Cohen (31:51):

Yeah. So there’s a lot of misunderstanding of children in general and how development follows a certain pattern, not just physically. Obviously everybody knows you go to the pediatrician, this is a milestone, this is a milestone and so on. But so many other different types of milestones are also happening in terms of cognitive development, how they truly process information, how they understand the world and them all in this kind of combination. So most of the misconceptions that I run into is they don’t understand anything or they do understand everything. It’s kind of like, well, but they understand what I’m saying. Yes and no. They understand the words, they process it differently. But here’s another thing. They actually are so much more attuned to your intonation, to your body language. They actually compute a lot more than just the words. And so when parents lecture the same information over and over and over again, they’re minimizing in a way their children’s ability to learn on their own.

(33:08):

I’m like, they don’t forget why they need to brush their teeth. So that explanation doesn’t have to repeat itself because you know your children are very smart and they can remind you something that happened a month ago. And so you see that they retain information, but there’s something else going on. They’re resisting the task because of where they come from, because of their position with you, because of the dynamic between the two of you. And a lot of that kind of specific information that I obviously can give parents helps them recognize what it is that they’re doing repeatedly and not to do and what they can do instead. So back to children do have skills and abilities and their own personality, no doubt, but they’re born with already skills to be able to compute information. You just have to understand how they do that, not necessarily by you lecturing the same information over and over and over again.

Dr. Sarah Bren (34:24):

Yes. I feel like an example that comes to mind that I’ll often, I feel like I interface with a lot is when kids are physically aggressive, when they’re hitting or they’re kicking or whatever, so hurting a sibling or whatever, parent, friend. And obviously we set a limit. We got to keep things safe. That’s definitely our job as parents. But a lot of times in that process, parents either want to explain why we don’t hit or they’re very afraid their child needs to learn a lesson that is we don’t hit and why. And if I don’t do X, they won’t learn that or if I don’t do Y, they won’t learn that. And invariably, if I ask parents the question, okay, if your child was so regulated, just chilling, cuddling up with you, reading a book, not activated at all, and you ask them, is it okay to hit or is it safe to hit?

(35:30):

Or what would happen if someone hit you or got hit? They would be able to answer that question. They don’t not know. What is missing is not knowledge about why we don’t hit or what could happen if we hit. What’s missing is their ability to inhibit an impulse because when you’re 10 out of 10 and you have an urge to hit and you have no breaks, you are going to hit.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (36:04):

Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (36:06):

So it’s like helping parents sometimes identify what is the thing, what’s the it we’re solving for? It’s not a lack of knowledge. It’s access to the knowledge, but more importantly, I think access to the inhibition of impulse, to the planning, which is again, speaking of development, for young kids, that’s not just very rarely available to them on a good day because they’re just too little. But for older kids, it still flickers on and off. So I think this ability for a parent to kind of understand what is the it that I actually have to solve for. It might be less teaching and language, at least in the moment, than one might imagine.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (36:57):

Yes, absolutely. And I will add that the emotions the children have and bring into that moment and therefore they are activated and reactive and act in the way they’re not supposed to in a way that they know when you just ask them on a random moment, they will know the exact answer, not just because you told them to, they really do know because another thing that they come into the world with is a lot of intuition, just natural, organic human intuition to kind of read the room, to understand social cues. And obviously they’re very inexperienced and very egocentric. So what they want in the moment leads the way. But you giving them the same explanation, not okay, it’s not safe, you can hurt, look, he’s crying and so on and so forth. And how many times I told you and all that is just masking what actually just activated or generated that behavior.

(38:01):

They already know that information. You can say, yeah, not okay to hit and you know that. Uh-uh. But what about the emotion that triggered that action? What am I supposed to do with that? And so when parents recognize that once again, their emotions and actions, functions go simultaneously and you want to monitor the behavior, stop it, but channel the trigger, give it an outlet. And there are plenty of those according to age appropriate, “Whoa, uh-uh not okay to hit me.” And once again, I don’t go into a full, “It hurts me. What’s the matter? Why? You’re angry? You don’t love me?” I mean, it goes on and on and on. And it’s like sometimes no is just no. And it’s like, “Uh-uh no hitting. Me. I can see that you want to hit something. So yeah, maybe a two year old can hit the floor and that’s actually okay.

(39:01):

But a four year old can already use your words. I can see that you’re upset. Uh-uh. No hitting me. No, no. And you know that. I don’t even have to tell you. So calm your body, but I see you have whatever it is, the emotion, the frustration, disappointment, anger at me, at anything. Use your words. Go ahead.” I almost want to foster them talking to me about the emotion right then and there, not as a narrative, “Oh, and I felt sad when you didn’t. Tell me how you feel.” Right there in the heat of the moment, “I’m upset. I am angry literally in present time.” And I want to recognize that and go, “I hear you. That’s active listening. I totally hear you.” And my coaching and leadership is like, “I’m not going to let you take the emotion and use any action to express it. No, but I’m going to help you monitor your action and then take that emotion and find a bigger container and outlet connection and communication with me for you to express it.”

Dr. Sarah Bren (40:15):

Yes. And I’m curious if you’ve noticed that there are ages where they’re more receptive to this or I would imagine the younger you can start doing this, the more you’re going to be building wiring from the get-go of having my emotional experience reflected back to me accurately in a containing way with corresponding strategies that I can use as a little tiny being with big feelings that are seeping out into my impulses to redirect that ragey energy or that frustrated or scared energy. And so that’s really good, I would imagine. The younger you can start doing this, the better. So I’m curious your thoughts on that, but I’m also curious if you find that the older you start doing this, if it needs modification or if older kids can get this just as quickly or if you have to work in more bound. I’m curious how you find it if a parent’s like, “Oh man, I wish I heard this like seven years ago and now I’m going to try this strategy.” And you have a kid who’s been not used to it and how you kind of get that to click for them.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (41:38):

Yes. So you presented obviously in a way that resonates with their level, age appropriately, meaning they are older and they’ve had all this experience and you can’t just come at them with, here is what we’re going to do. So you talk to them in such a way where you’re like, “I’ve been thinking.” You want to show thoughtfulness or the process of you reaching this place, which is an incredible modeling for change and hope, right? One of the greatest things that we actually have. So parents, you haven’t done this until now. It’s okay. There’s always hope and change is 100% possible. And you don’t just suddenly take an approach and use it. You include your child in the process of you getting to this place. So your child is much older and now they’ve been using this behavior and you’re like, “We’ve been doing this for a long time and I’ve been thinking it’s time to change something and both of us need, and I want you to be part of it.

(42:49):

We’re going to work on this together. And here is what it is.” So you can give them sort of the parameter of what the concept is, what it is, but you have to be the leader of that change. And you have to say, “And I’m going to work twice as hard because I know how difficult it is to change and it’s not going to happen in one day. So we’re going to practice it.” Consistency is grounding. So again and again, and you don’t give up and you don’t give in and you don’t think this is why I say, if it makes sense to you, know that you still need to do the practice, right? You love football, you love basketball, you are playing, you understand the game, you’re passionate about it. You still need to practice again and again and again and again to get good at it.

(43:40):

Just because you understand, oh yeah, that’s what basketball is doesn’t mean that you cannot go out there into the arena and be the best. No. So the practice, so wholeheartedly, you believe in that, you think, oh yeah, I can see how it works. It makes sense to me. We’re going to now work at it, practice it. And we’re going to also celebrate some small wins. But I think that going back to understanding children, for example, when they’re young and I help parents recognize the children have an incredible imagination or fantasy or metaphoric kind of way of seeing the world, and that can be used as a tool to express themselves. I mean, I tell parents to do that, but also I’ve done it with kids. So you’re so angry, it feels like a roaring lion. And this one kid once told the parent, “No, it actually feels like a bunny.” I love that.

(44:44):

And you know what? It doesn’t actually matter. It is their way of channeling whatever it is that they’re feeling. We think they feel so big. No, we actually feel so small.

Dr. Sarah Bren (44:56):

But that is really important because I think it just shows, I think, a perfect example of how we don’t always know what our kid is feeling, what they need. And so when we’re trying to solve for something that we’re actually projecting onto them, they can’t handle this or this is there if they’re feeling overwhelmed or they’re so enraged, they feel like a lion. It could be, no, actually I feel so tiny and I’m actually freaking out because I have no control and no power and that’s what’s making this behavior look this way. It’s like we have to kind of check in with them a little bit more, I think, and be curious.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (45:39):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (45:39):

You talk a lot about the art of choosing your language, which is hard in the moment. I think we have to just name. If you’re practicing a different way of articulating yourself, it’s going to be really hard to do that on the fly. That’s really hard. So again, we have to practice this too for it to be something that we’re going to do with our kids so that they can practice it. But could you talk a little bit about saying what you mean, so sitting down and slowing down and kind of thinking before you just trying to identify the it before you talk about it with them and how you coach parents to do that effectively in the moment?

Dr. Siggie Cohen (46:23):

Yes. Very difficult. And you’re absolutely right. It does take practice. And I tell them a lot of times in the moment when you are practicing this, you are making the mistakes and you think, oh no, I didn’t say it right. That’s part of the practice. Oh, I didn’t say it right. I meant to say it. And you redo right then and there. We think that it all has to be, it’s not a production.

(46:48):

It’s a mess. It’s not like, okay, cut and someone’s producing this whole thing to be perfect. It is real life. And so you can, and by the way, your child is modeling that as well, you being human. And you’re like, wait, wait, wait. I really wanted to say it like that. Because when you hear yourself and you allow yourself to correct yourself in the moment, that’s your greatest training right then and there as opposed to, I didn’t say it right. Now you are feeling guilty and shame and now time goes on. No, right then and there. So that’s one of the things you want to recognize. I am practicing this. I’m going to fail. Absolutely. It’s not real failure. It’s mistake making on the journey, the path to learn. That’s just inevitable. So this is one of the things you want to definitely recognize. We are in this, we’re practicing, we’re not going to do it perfectly.

(47:44):

We’re learn as we go. Another thing, definitely learn who you are, what your triggers are, where are you coming from, what is your mindset? If you tend to feel disrespected by your child, what does this disrespect mean to you? Where exactly it sits in your body or your psychic, right? What is it attached to? Is this something that makes you feel minimal, patronized, dismissed, right? And so what does that mean? Is this what your child is actually doing or this is what it makes you feel? So the reaction is very different, right? If this is just how I absorb what is happening, but it’s not really being done to me. It’s more my own doing, which we all have, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (48:37):

Totally.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (48:38):

Yeah. So learning yourself, understanding yourself, the look inward, that where are my triggers coming from? What are they about? Who am I? One of the greatest things as parents, I think, is the fact that we are still learners. We are constantly learning, growing while we are also teaching and raising our children, right? So the concept of parenting them, parenting ourselves is a real thing. Yeah. We’re just not at the same level, but we’re still also growing, developing. So don’t forget that, parents. It’s not that you fail or are defeated or make mistakes. You do, but that’s not the end of it. That’s just a moment in time in this very long journey of growing in a relationship that is not based on just make it or break it, one thing. It’s so full and it’s encompassing so many things. So remind yourself of that. We didn’t get it today.

(49:48):

No, we didn’t get it now. Oh no. But you know what? We’re still going to work on it. We can get it. We can get it. It’s almost like acceptance, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (49:57):

Yes. And that grace we give ourselves helps our kids give themselves grace because that’s ultimately. I mean, I think one of the biggest drivers of kids getting behaviorally kind of stuck in these patterns that don’t help is often usually traced back in some way to feeling out of control or very all or nothing thinking, right? If you don’t give me this toy right now, I have to have it. I’m going to grab it out of your hands. There’s no other way. I must have it and I can’t tolerate that at all. The lack of frustration tolerance, the lack of slowing down and taking perspective, again, developmentally appropriate to quite a degree in young childhood and even in up to adolescence sometimes. But ultimately I think the more we can help our kids. We were talking earlier, we had to go back to the relationship and create that relational safety.

(50:59):

But also another thing we have to kind of build out from the inside out is cognitive flexibility, not being rigid and stuck on things, but being able to say, “Hmm, this is a problem, but could I look at it from this angle and see a different solution? Oh, that feels different. Okay. I got more space now.” So you’re describing that same process when you’re talking about what the parent’s doing with their own learning to talk in a different way, learning to slow down and look at the problem from a different perspective. Maybe I’m getting triggered and getting rigid and adding some fuel to the fire. So it’s like when we do that work, we’re giving that same learned value to our kids for them to use themselves too.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (51:51):

Absolutely. And maybe going back to where we are now and parents are bombarded with so many extreme messages that doesn’t allow them to feel like it’s a process. It’s okay. I can make mistakes. It’s not the end of it all. Not everything is harmful, damaging and traumatic, which we hear that, “Oh, I’m going to traumatize my child.” Y didn’t give them a cookie or they’re not getting to go wherever they want or buy the toy target. It’s not a trauma. It’s not. It’s not even damaging. I mean, there’s something else that’s going on that makes you fear the damage, the trauma, the harm. So we have to kind of recognize that. But so many of the messages come with these kind of warnings. If you do this, this will happen 100%. And that’s the rigidity of nowadays that I think parents are sort of forced into.

(52:53):

Rigidity is brokenness. Rigidity is fragile. In life, we need fluidity and flexibility. So nothing almost really can be all or none do or die one way or no other way. We can’t breathe when we think like that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (53:15):

Yes. And then it’s just a downward cascading ripple to our kids.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (53:23):

Absolutely. So back again, I want parents out there to remind themselves of balance, moderation, pause, taking it in steps, in strides, in. Yes, think about the big picture, but the big picture is not the worst case scenario. My child doesn’t sleep today. They’ll never sleep. And if I laid next to them, this is it for the rest of our life. It’s like everything comes in that kind of an extreme. I’m not saying you should or you shouldn’t lay next to them. We can talk specifically about that, but the fact that it runs into worst case scenario instantly is where we have scared the parents today.

Dr. Sarah Bren (54:09):

Yes.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (54:10):

And that’s why they’re feeling so fragile and vulnerable and walking on eggshells around their children’s behaviors and scared to be the parent and not, “Hey, do as I say,” but more like, “Yeah, I’m here. I’m a parent. This is a good thing. Thank goodness you have a parent.” It’s like I have to remind myself, it’s not a bad thing. It’s a good

Dr. Sarah Bren (54:32):

Thing. It is. And I think you do such a great job of empowering parents to feel like this is a good thing to be this leader. And I think that this book is going to be a very useful thing for so many parents. So you are the parent, move from overparenting to balance parenting and become the leader your child needs. Awesome title.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (54:59):

Thank you.

Dr. Sarah Bren (55:00):

It’s coming out next week. If people want to get your book, follow your work, connect with you, where can we send them and how can they connect with you?

Dr. Siggie Cohen (55:12):

So obviously social media and our main one is Instagram, but they can find us anywhere they feel is their media of choice. We have a website, drsigi.com, and there’s our courses and also links to the book. Also, social media gives you links to the book. Obviously the book is going to come out everywhere, so it’s online and it is in the bookstores, maybe not small ones, but I have walked into a few small ones and they said, “Hey, if somebody orders, sure, we’re going to…

Dr. Sarah Bren (55:44):

Okay. Go to your local bookstore then, because that also helps local bookstores.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (55:49):

Yes, I agree. Support your local bookstores. They’re the ones with the heart for books and still hold the value of what books are.

Dr. Sarah Bren (55:59):

Yes.

Dr. Siggie Cohen (56:00):

So, yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (56:03):

Thank you so much, Dr. Siggie. It was really honor to talk to you today. I’m grateful to have this conversation with you.

(56:11):

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