446. Q&A: Am I wrong…or did my doctor give bad parenting advice?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

Hello. Welcome back to the Beyond the Sessions segment of the Securely Attached podcast where we answer listener questions. And I have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg and Dr. Emily Upshur here. Thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about everything.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (00:57):

Of course. Love it.

Dr. Emily Upshur (00:59):

Of course.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:00):

So a parent wrote in with a question about dealing with some tricky situation at the doctor. So she writes in, “Hello. I went to a neurologist for my two-year-old to get him checked and I followed the doctor’s instructions, but the moment she grabbed him a little too fast and laid him on the desk to get him checked, his survival instinct started and he was trying to get up. And when he saw he was blocked by force, he started kicking with his feet. And so I approached and tapped his leg lightly to reassure him that it’s okay. The neurologist started talking to me with a tone that I shouldn’t be doing that because I’m reinforcing his inappropriate behavior and that I should not respond when he is in distress so he can learn to regulate himself and leave him to cry and accused me that I was being permissive.

(01:49):

From what I have read on attachment theory and psychology, responding to a child’s distress is very important. Additionally, she suggested that my child go to full-time daycare and spend less time with mother because that can make children dependent and addicted to their mother. And that was the most nonsense thing I’ve ever heard. I kind of agree with you. Sorry for the long post. I was just left with a very bitter feeling after that appointment and it didn’t make any sense to me and I had no one to ask. So this came to me as a calling and very happy to have found you. Thank you in advance.” First of all, I’m so sorry this mother had this experience. What an upsetting. So awful.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (02:25):

Seriously and so bizarre and it’s like, I’m sorry, did she travel to 1951? It’s so just dated and wrong and weird.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:36):

So one, just I’m really glad this mother was tuning into her own intuition and instincts to say this doesn’t. She questioned it. And that’s really hard to do because when you have a doctor in a position of authority that’s giving you advice in a very confident and maybe even highly directive and maybe even critical manner, it can be really hard to question that. And this mom is doing that. So first of all, good on you.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (03:09):

And it’s so outside this person’s expertise too. Maybe just to be clear, she gave very good neurological advice, but the advice about the nurturing and the attachment and all that, not they’re lame and just inappropriate. And then just to highlight for this mom that the conclusion you came to is absolutely correct, which is that of course, if your child is in distress, especially in a new and unfamiliar environment like a doctor’s office, comfort your child, soothe your child. That is the way to be an attuned parent. 100%.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:50):

I think this idea, and again, one, I’m really sad that this happened to you and your child. Two, I’m sad that this doctor is operating off of such outdated information and probably spreading it around to lots of parents that might be in vulnerable positions. But also, I just want to highlight a few just fundamental flaws to this logic that this doctor is communicating in case anyone is confused. Their position was if you sue the child when they’re distressed, that is reinforcing bad behavior. So that if the kid was flailing and yelling and crying in the doctor’s office, the interpretation that that is a intentional, volitional, quote, inappropriate or bad behavior that you would then be reinforcing by rewarding that behavior assumes conscious intent and volition, which one, two, is just not at all plausible, but also it’s a reflexive automatic threat response that it’s not in their control.

(05:11):

So what would you be reinforcing is the sort of flaw in that logic. Reinforcement presumes learning and conscious intentional behavior. So I just want to name that sort of flawed logic because it’s not. While this is pretty egregious, that is a belief system that really typical mainstream people in the medical and psychological environment put out there a lot that this whole idea of reward and reinforcing bad behaviors, but if the behavior is therefore that if it’s not a choice, then there’s no learning to be done. So you can’t reinforce anything if you’re not regulated.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (05:57):

Right. And this mom knew that because she pointed to survival instincts. It’s like the Mona Dellahook’s bottom up versus top down behaviors. This was a bottom up behavior, clearly. The other thing that this doctor clearly threw in there for good measure was the old sort of daycare argument.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:23):

Like what did you go to this neurologist for?

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (06:25):

We did an episode on daycare, I think at one point. But essentially all the research shows that there’s reasons to have your kid in daycare and there’s reasons not to have your kid in daycare and it depends on your family and your needs and your kids will be fine. And obviously I’m very much oversimplifying, but this…

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:41):

Right, but attachment isn’t really necessarily dependent on that.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (06:46):

Right one way or the other, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:47):

Attachment security. Right.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (06:50):

They’re separate parallel issues. You be addicted to your mother if you don’t go to daycare or the more common thought is that you won’t love your mother if you do go to daycare.

Dr. Emily Upshur (07:01):

I love the addicted to your mother. I was like, it’s my favorite line of the whole thing. You will become addicted to your mother. You know what? That’s kind of normal.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (07:12):

Right. And kind of like worse things could happen.

Dr. Emily Upshur (07:17):

I hate to tell you that that might happen.

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:19):

Right. And also that’s just misattributing the concept of addiction to something that is biologically healthy and normal. They’re too mutually, they’re just not even in the same category. An addiction is something by definition that is not healthy to be continuing to be stuck doing over and over and over again, despite increasingly detrimental consequences. That’s the definition of addiction. Utilizing…

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (07:46):

I think we have to write to this neurologist.

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:46):

A primary caregiver to support your regulation and sense of safety and increase your chances of survival is healthy by definition.

Dr. Emily Upshur (07:58):

Well, I think more importantly, and I see this with parents of all different ages when they advocate for their child. And I think the most important thing that people in power can say is never apologize for advocating for your child. And this parent was advocating for her child. She was trying to help her child in the soothing of him, whatever it is. You should always have a critical eye towards any sort of interaction that doesn’t sit well with you and that’s okay. I think that’s sort of more of the bigger, more important piece of this question is like, Is it okay that I don’t think that I can spoil my child or my child can be addicted to me or I can help soothe my child?

(08:44):

And I think it’s a resounding yes for some of this, but more importantly, I like that she questioned to your point, Sarah, in the beginning, whether it’s you’re advocating for your child in elementary school and you get pushback, it’s a similar feeling that comes up like, “Ooh, am I wrong for doing this?” So I think it’s really important to listen to that and to love that they’re getting another perspective here. And I think that that’s really the take home message to me. And in terms of going to the doctors, I think you can go to a doctor with a clean slate and just don’t go back to this neurologist. We kind of want to scrap this one from the list and get a new doctor, have a different experience.

(09:29):

And the more experiences you have in doctor’s offices, I know this is a parent of a two-year-old, I think you’ll start to get your mom’s sense of what feels like the right fit and bedside manner is an important part of that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (09:42):

Yeah. And your child will have more and more and more positive experiences and this will get diluted.

Dr. Emily Upshur (09:46):

Yep. Agreed.

Dr. Sarah Bren (09:49):

Thank you for writing in. I’m so glad that you felt like you could reach out to us when you were feeling like you didn’t have anyone else to ask about this. So that also feels like this is why we’re doing this kind of podcast and thank you for using it and helping other families that may have hopefully not, but very possibly had similar experiences.

Dr. Emily Upshur (10:08):

Yeah, it’s true.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (10:10):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:12):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.