Melinda (00:00):

And I was shocked at how there were these very simple things that kept coming up over and over again when I would interview researchers who study very different skills and they’d be like, they were all basically telling me the same thing. And one of those things is connecting with your kids, being curious, listening to them. It just builds so many skills in kids. It’s just very, very powerful.

Dr. Sarah (00:30):

Those responsive parenting actually create a generation of kids who are entitled and self-centered, not if we actually understand the core values behind this approach and how to implement it effectively. Joining me today to talk about this is Melinda Wenner Moyer. Melinda is a contributing editor at Scientific American Magazine and a regular contributor and former columnist at the New York Times. Her first book, How to Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes won a gold medal in the 2022 Living Now Book Awards and her second book, Hello, Cruel World: Science-based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times is available for pre-order Now. In this episode, Melinda shares some of the surprising and counterintuitive findings that she uncovered through her research and offers insights on how we can raise compassionate resilience and well-adjusted children. We will dive into the impact of a growth versus a fixed mindset and what that can have on our kids’ perseverance. We’re going to talk about why kids lie and how to respond when they do, and how you can create an environment where your child feels safe coming to you even when they’ve done something wrong.

(01:42):

Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights so you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. This is Securely Attached.

(02:16):

Hello, we have Melinda Weer Moyer here with us today. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Melinda (02:26):

Thank you, Sarah. I’m so excited to be here.

Dr. Sarah (02:29):

You have some really interesting work that you’ve done. I am kind of a science research nerd, and I love that you have really dedicated the writing that you’ve done to showcasing real studies. And so that just was so awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your work and what you do and the books that you have written and are working on? Why were those so appealing to you?

Melinda (03:00):

Yeah, absolutely. So my background is actually in molecular biology and I started my career as a hard science writer. So I was writing about genetics and neuroscience and immunology, and I spent many years writing for science magazines and newspapers. And then I had kids, I have two kids. One is my son is 13 and my daughter is 10. And basically as soon as I had kids, I had so many questions, what am I supposed to do in this situation and how am I supposed to deal with that? And I would go online and try to get answers and everything conflicted. And I was like, I wonder if science can actually answer parenting questions. And this was 10 years ago before I feel like people were really doing that a lot. And I started digging into the research and child development and in parenting, and there was so much of it that nobody really knew about.

(03:58):

And so I started writing about it and I wrote a column for slate for many years. It was like a science-based parenting column. And then as my kids got a little older, I found that the kinds of questions I had really shifted and I started worrying less about how do I keep them alive, more about how can I raise them in this complicated world to be good human beings if they’re being exposed to, they’re hearing things in the news or they’re reading things online and things are sending conflicting messages about how to be in this world, how can I as a parent really help them grow up to be compassionate, good and successful and happy human beings? And so that’s when I started really focusing on those questions. And I wrote my first book, how to Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes in 2021, and that’s self-explanatory, how to raise kids who aren’t assholes. And now I’m working on a second book coming out in May, 2025 called Hello, Cruel World: Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times. And that’s really focused on what are the key skills that we as parents might want to foster in our kids, and what’s the science behind how we can do that.

Dr. Sarah (05:22):

That’s so valuable And it’s so funny. So I’m a clinical psychologist. I went to grad school before I had kids and would study a lot of these studies. We took child development, we took all different types of emerging psychopathology, all kinds of classes that required us to read these studies and write papers and do all this research. And I have to say one of our biggest weaknesses as a field is that we have so much information and we are not very good at disseminating it in a way that is accessible to the people who might actually really benefit from knowing about child development. Like parents, there’s tones of research that I’m sure you’ve sifted through when you were writing these books and no one’s translating it for the parents. I mean, I think you’re right. I think it’s happening more now, but 10 years ago it wasn’t, but it was all there.

Melinda (06:24):

Yeah, yeah, I know mean it’s crazy. What I discovered when I started digging into the research and how much of it too was surprising and not necessarily, I mean a lot of it kind of aligned with my parenting instincts, but then some things totally didn’t and I was like, wow, I really need to write about this. This is counterintuitive.

Dr. Sarah (06:44):

What were some of the counterintuitive pieces that you were like, okay, this was not, if I hadn’t done this digging, I probably wouldn’t have thought to think of it this way.

Melinda (06:55):

Yeah. Oh gosh, there’s so many. I mean, one big theme is that the fear we have over our kids’ success makes us want to really push them to achieve and excel. And what I didn’t know is that there were just so many downsides to that kind of pressure that we put on kids and how it can really morph into a feeling that kids have of my parents only really love me when I do certain things and when I do things the right way. And it can really affect their self-esteem, their resilience. That was really interesting to me because I just didn’t know that there were such costs associated with that sometimes. And that you have to be really careful about that. And another big one was talking to kids about race and skin color and how important that is. I think especially for white parents, there’s long been this idea that, well, if I don’t talk about race, then my kids won’t notice it.

(07:58):

They won’t form opinions about it, they won’t become racist. And the research is really quite clear that it’s when we don’t talk about race, that kids will end up, they notice it, they notice it from a very young age, and if we don’t talk about it, they notice the hierarchies and power that exist in our culture surrounding race. And they try to understand it. And the easiest answer for them, the easiest way to understand it for them, for little kids is like, well, maybe white people are just really smart and really powerful and just inherently more deserving of power. And so it’s through talking about racism and acknowledging skin color and letting our kids feel comfortable coming to us with questions that we can actually talk to kids about these issues and educate them about racism and explain why there are these differences that they see. So those were really big ones and I was like, wow, I really need to change how I’m thinking about parenting here.

Dr. Sarah (08:52):

Yeah, no, I mean I think those are really powerful. I get why that can feel counterintuitive talking about unspoken things and partly the reason why they’re unspoken is because we weren’t given language and we filled in the blanks. It’s been historically intergenerationally passed down that there are certain things that are taboo or that we avoid discussing, whether it’s emotions or race and skin color and power hierarchies in our society. We don’t talk about those because no one talked to us about them, and we did probably fill in the blanks as kids do. And so those, we have to disentangle some of these internalized generational avoidance mechanisms that we kind of unwittingly have, but it’s so powerful when we learn, but you got to learn the skills for it because really hard if you don’t know how to talk about these things, no one talked to you about them finding language for that.

(09:57):

Fortunately, there are some good resources. Have you found any in your research where it’s like, I know your book is, you’re really good at looking at the studies, explaining them and giving sort of a direction to go in, but I like that you’re not terribly prescriptive. It’s not like you’re saying there’s one way to do this and this is exactly what you should do, which I think is, it’s helpful because it doesn’t give parents this sense of like, oh, if I’m not doing it this way, am I messing up? And were there other resources that were like, especially with talking to kids about race and skin color, did you find any resources that were like, this is a really good way to talk about this?

Melinda (10:43):

There are a ton of resources. I will say I love books. There are so many great children’s books, board books that talk about skin color. Some of them are a little too vague from my taste. Some of ’em will be like, these animals are different, but they can still be friends. And those are great messages, of course, but we think, oh, that’s about race and that’s going to teach my kids that she can be friends with everybody. But I prefer, and the research suggests that kids really need explicit conversations. So I mean, there are tons of great books about racism that you can use as a springboard. I mean, I will say to your first point about we haven’t had the language, sometimes we don’t know how to talk about these things that I do really think it’s important to keep in mind that it is okay to make mistakes or to use words or phrases that maybe you’re like, I’m not sure if this is the best way to say this.

(11:44):

Because you can always, I mean, if you have a conversation with your kid and you’re trying to be thoughtful in how you talk about it, but you’re not sure you can afterwards look up on the internet, was that the best way to say that? There are so many online resources and then have a second conversation with your child and say, I think maybe this is a better way to explain that. And that’s really, really powerful. That’s so powerful to do for kids as well, to model uncertainty as a parent, to show kids that you don’t have to have all the answers all the time. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay. It’s good to do more research and to keep learning. All of those are such important characteristics to model to kids that I think we should be less afraid of getting things perfect and more embracing of trying things out, trial and error, making mistakes, going back, having more conversations. That’s ultimately better in the long run.

Dr. Sarah (12:41):

Yeah, I could not agree more. And it kind of speaks to that other sort of counterintuitive thing that you are putting your finger on and your research, which was this intense pressure that parents feel to raise kids who are achieving a lot and that if that’s helpful to them to give them all these enrichment opportunities and be talking about this stuff and focusing on this stuff when in fact, sometimes and very often that can actually increase a sense of pressure, it can increase anxiety, it can impact self-esteem and not even self-esteem, but our sense of self and what we view our most valued qualities to be, because that’s what the environment is telling us. What the environment pays attention to in us and sees in us tends to be the things that we learn to pay attention to and value or think are our most valuable assets. So if we’re always being told like, oh, you’re so smart, or this, you did so great on this test or whatever, we talk about product versus process praise, right?

Melinda (13:49):

Yep.

Dr. Sarah (13:50):

We can inadvertently be sending messages that we genuinely don’t want to send. That’s not our intention. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? I think that’s super important.

Melinda (14:01):

Yeah. I was so fascinated when I really dug into especially the language of growth mindset versus fixed mindset, which relates to all of this I think in an important way, which just to briefly, I’m sure a lot of your listeners are very familiar with growth mindset as a term, but the concept came about through the research of Carol Dweck at Stanford. She’s a psychologist, and I guess maybe I’ll start with fixed mindset, which is what you were talking about when we tell kids that they’re smart, they’re good at something like, oh, you’re such a talented soccer player, or you’re a natural at ballet, which are things that by the way, we all, I think grew up being told probably by our own parents, I don’t know, a fixed mindset has been the way we talk about traits for a long time and way. We give praise to kids and to other people in general.

(14:55):

And the problem with it is what you kind of already highlighted, it’s really valuing outcome over process. But the other thing that’s really interesting about it is that it really affects kids’ resilience and their interest in facing challenges and their ability to handle challenges. Because when you say to a kid, you’re so smart, then they start to think that, okay, if I don’t do well on this math quiz, then I’m not smart. And if smartness is something you either have or you don’t, there’s really nothing I can do about it. And they really want to protect then their reputation as a smart kid. And the best way for them to protect that reputation is to continue being perfect at things. And so when they encounter a challenge, they’re like, oh, no thanks. I don’t want to do the hard problems. I don’t want to do the extra credit and get it wrong because then if I get it wrong, then I’m not smart anymore.

(15:53):

It’s just evidence that I’m not smart. And if smartness is something you either have or you don’t have, I can’t do anything about it. So it becomes this, kids go into this protective mode over the reputation, whereas a growth mindset really puts value on the process and on effort over outcome. And so this is when you with a growth mindset, instead of saying you’re so smart, you might say, oh, you did really well on your math test. That must’ve been because you studied last night a lot, or you’ve been doing your homework every night. And it really ties any kind of achievement that your child might have to the effort that they put into it. And what this does then is it kind of teaches kids that it’s through effort and challenges and learning that they get better at things and that things like smartness aren’t black and white.

(16:43):

You can grow your intelligence, you can grow your knowledge, everything grows your skills, et cetera. And it makes kids much more open to challenges and much more willing to take challenges. And there’s some really interesting research suggesting that even just a little bit of growth mindset language compared to fixed mindset language will make kids more willing to take on harder problems and persevere longer on problems and even be less likely to lie to their friends about how well they did on a test. Because to them, it’s not a sign of failure if they get things

Dr. Sarah (17:18):

Wrong. Right. That’s interesting. Yeah. There’s a study that I think you talk about where they were looking at these, can you talk about the study where they were offering kids options on do they want to take something challenging or not based on the kind of reinforcement they got and then what that did afterwards in the way they wanted, how they showed up with friends?

Melinda (17:40):

Yeah, I love this study. So this was one of Carol Dweck’s studies that she published with a colleague. And so what they did is they brought a bunch of kids into a lab and they essentially gave them all the same intelligence test and afterwards they split the kids into two groups. And to the first group they said, you did really well on this test. It must be because you’re smart at these kinds of problems. So that’s fixed mindset feedback. The other half they said, you did really well on these problems. It must be because you worked hard at them. And so that’s growth mindset, language. And then they asked all the students, we have some more problems for you, but you can choose which ones you want to do. There’s problems that are easy, so you’ll probably do pretty well on them, or you can choose problems that are hard, but you might learn something from them.

(18:35):

And they found that the kids that they gave the fixed mindset feedback to the ones where they said, you’re smart at these problems, overwhelmingly chose the easy problems as their next problems to do. And the growth mindset kids where they said, you must have worked hard, those kids were more likely to choose the hard problems. And then in another arm of this study, they just gave all the kids hard problems just to see whether the fixed mindset versus growth mindset feedback affected their perseverance on hard problems. And they found that it did. And they found that the kids who were given fixed mindset language spent less time on them and gave up sooner. And the kids who had been given growth mindset feedback spent more time on them and just were more willing to work on them. And then the last thing, which I thought was so brilliant and it’s hidden in this little line in the end of this long study is they also found that the kids who were given the fixed mindset, you’re so smart, feedback were more likely to lie to other kids about how well they had done on the test.

(19:39):

And again, that’s just illustrating this idea that with a fixed mindset, you really are trying to preserve your reputation as smart. It’s more important than anything else. So you’ll lie about how well you do just to make sure that you can hold onto that smart label, and it completely affects their willingness to try hard things and work on hard things.

Dr. Sarah (20:00):

That’s so powerful, and I think it gives you a really good sense of how the language we use does matter. I mean, I know as a parent, and I know as a parent who scrolls on Instagram, but there’s always these say this, not that, and these scripts, and as a parent I’m like, I get frustrated having to feel pressure to memorize these scripts and say the quote right thing. And I always kind of encourage parents to get to the core essence of what you’re trying to communicate, and don’t worry so much about the words Don, because you’re going to get in your head and you’re not going to say the right thing all the time. But at the same time, this I think is more important if you understand why certain things are helpful, if you understand the foundational messaging, it’s not about not saying good job and only saying, oh, you worked so hard on that. Kids get sick of scripts and they start to tune you out. But if you can authentically understand what is a growth mindset versus what’s a fixed mindset and how to encourage and reflect on the differences with your kid in an authentic way that you actually speak to them, that’s where this can be useful I think, and less pressure.

Melinda (21:25):

Yeah, I totally agree, and I have really bad memory for detail, and so I’m very much a conceptual person.

(21:34):

I don’t really worry about the words I use. And also, I just want to say that when I interviewed Carol Dweck, who is the woman who came up with growth mindset and she’s been studying it for 30 years, and she said to me, she’s like, I just want you to know that I use fixed mindset language all the time because it’s just like I don’t mean to, and it’s ingrained and I just say it and I wish I didn’t, but we have been raised this way, a lot of us, and she said, the thing is, as long as you use growth mindset some of the time when you think of it, when you can be, you have the emotional resources to pull that out of your brain, that’s going to be powerful. It doesn’t have to be all the time. You’re not going to ruin your kid if you can’t do it all the time. But yeah, and for me, it’s just really about keeping in mind the conceptual point of what am I trying to teach my kids? What are the values that I really think are important to instill? So how could I talk with them about their math test in a way that’s really going to help instill those.

Dr. Sarah (22:31):

Right mean? So the essence of what I try to help parents understand is if you get the idea, you will just show up in the aggregate plant dropping kind of that tone. If you only are trying to memorize a bunch of scripts and you’re not really understanding, well, what’s the function behind these? What am I trying to build? What am I trying to communicate? What skills am I trying to nurture in the long run? Then if you get that, it’ll show up. You cannot support growth mindset if you understand what it is because you’ll just innately kind of notice opportunities to reinforce it, and you’ll still say, good job to your kids because that’s just normal things to do. I don’t know if you watch, do you know the Daily Tay on Instagram? Her name’s no. Oh my God, she is so funny. Her name’s Taylor Wolf and she’s like a comedian, and she’s just funny, is so funny. She makes these hilarious parenting reels and I was watching one yesterday where she was, she has this a little kid, and it’s her and her mom. She’s like teaching boomer grandparents how to parent like a millennial, and it was like her just her mom interacting with her daughter and her poking her head in the room. No, no, no. We say gentle hands. Oh, it’s so funny.

Melinda (24:00):

Yes, yes.

Dr. Sarah (24:01):

I did. I have to attach a link to that in this because you need to go watch it. So true. It’s the conundrum. I think she makes it so funny, this memification of the conundrum of getting stuck in the words and feeling, so I don’t know what I’m supposed to say. They’re all these rules and it’s just so spot on. I feel like the pressure we feel to get it quote right all the time.

Melinda (24:27):

Yes, yes. And I totally, I think I actually shared that on Instagram two weeks ago, but I had forgotten who it was and I loved that. It was so funny.

Dr. Sarah (24:35):

It is. But going back to the end of this study that you’re talking about where it’s like, oh, these kids are actually more inclined to lie. And again, this is another good example of if we get stuck on this sort of concrete behavior like, oh, they’re lying. I get so many questions from parents being like, my child is lying. Is this a problem? What do I do? And I’m like, well, the lie is a piece of data. It actually doesn’t tell us all that much unless we look underneath it and try to get some context for what is the function of the lie. In this case, you’re describing a child who’s lying. The function of the lie is to save face, is to help feel in alignment with how I see myself, how I want you to see me don’t match reality in this moment, and so I’m going to distort reality so that I can stay in alignment.

(25:31):

If we think about it that way, the idea of is a lie, good or bad? Stops being the question. And how do we help a child feel like they don’t have to move out of alignment with their sense of self if they fail at something? That’s the question. If you could teach them that, guess what? They won’t lie about that. They might lie about other things where they have to save face, right? I don’t know. I would love to talk a little bit about lying because I think it’s a very scary thing for parents and it feels treacherous and they don’t really know how to handle it. And I think in general, we are very black and white about lying. We have a lot of morality stuff around that, and it’s actually pretty developmentally appropriate, typical even healthy if you think about it in the context of the child is working with the tools they have to try to stay either in alignment with their sense of self or stay connected to the safety and connection of a significant person, which is like actually those are healthy drives that aren’t bad.

Melinda (26:45):

Yeah, this is a great way into, it’s almost represents so many other things too. I mean, when I think about a lie that a kid makes or really any kind of misbehavior, I really try to think about where’s this coming from? What’s it reflecting more deeply? And it’s often some kind of unmet need or a fear. And when we can kind of figure that out, I think it becomes much less scary and it’s like, oh, it’s understandable why they lied just then they’re terrified of getting punished or whatever it is. They’re just trying to function in the world and to them in that moment, all lie is the best way to survive. And yes, lies are totally developmentally appropriate. I’ve talked to many researchers who studied children’s lying and they’re like, this is just what kids do. It is absolutely normal. It is a reflection of actually complicated cognitive skills.

(27:44):

So if your kids are good liars, it actually means they have a lot of really good skills and skills that are the foundation for compassion as well. Theory of mind is one skill, which is the ability to put yourself in another person’s shoes and well, it’s really the ability to understand that other people can have different thoughts and beliefs than you do, and you have to have theory of mind skills in order to lie because you have to kind of know that, oh, mom doesn’t know that I stole the last brownie so I can pretend I didn’t steal the last brownie and maybe I’ll get away with it. It’s actually a really complex skill and it develops in different kids at different times. But point being, if your kid is lying, that means that their brain is working really well. So that’s the first thing.

(28:30):

And I think although it’s normal, there are also things we can do, things that we know can influence how frequently kids lie. And so if it’s something you’re really worried about, we know that kids who are in really punitive environments, there was a study, and I’m going to get the details wrong, but they kind of brought kids into a lab and did something to set them up to lie. They asked the kids to not look at something that was going to be really hard to not look at. And then the researchers left the room and they were like, don’t look at the thing. And of course all the kids looked at the thing and then afterwards they were like, did you look at the thing? And they tried to see which kids lied and which kids didn’t. And they found that kids who went to really strict and punitive schools where the teachers punished them a lot were so much more likely to lie because I mean, it totally makes sense.

(29:20):

They are terrified of getting caught in a lie. They think if or they’re terrified, sorry, not of getting caught in a lie. They’re terrified of getting punished for having done the thing they weren’t supposed to do. And so they lie, and to them it’s like, so that’s something we can keep in mind. I will say with my 13-year-old boy, he still opens up to me in ways that I know his peers don’t always to their parents. And some of the things he says to me are things that I don’t really approve of. He was at a sleepover not too long ago and he said that they all snuck out at 2:00 AM and walked into town. And in the moment I was like, oh my God, why did you do that? That’s not safe. That’s terrible. He’s telling me this. But I recalled this conversation I had with Judith Smetana, who is a psychologist who studies adolescent parent relationships, and she had said to me, look, when your kids open up to you about things that are risky for them to open up about, even if you disapprove in the moment, try to not jump down their throats.

(30:29):

So I said something like, wow, okay, was it fun to, that seems a little scary. Was it scary to go into town or why did you do it? And I just tried to show some curiosity rather than judgment. And then it’s like later at a neutral time I can bring it up and say, I actually have some concerns about that and here’s why. But the more that we can, I think, communicate to kids that we’re curious about what they do and we’re not going to just immediately punish them when they do something we don’t like, I think that helps a little bit to make them feel less threatened and less likely to lie.

Dr. Sarah (31:08):

It’s interesting you bring up a couple of things when you described this situation with your son, and I’m like, oh, so many parents are probably finding themselves in moments like this throughout parenthood plenty. And I do think as parents, we have internalized this, in my opinion, inaccurate or erroneous pressure to if something is being brought to me as a parent, whether it’s I watch my kid hit their sibling in the moment or my kid is disclosing to me something that is genuinely not okay to me in this moment of disclosure, I am required to parent in the moment. We have so much pressure that we believe we must parent in the moment, otherwise we are derelict in our duty to teach our kids how to be good humans or not assholes. And so I think yes, it is our responsibility to teach our kids how to be good humans and let’s optimize our efforts to work when learning is most accessible to our kids, typically not in the moment when our kid has done something bad or is disclosing to us that they’ve done something bad.

(32:23):

And so there’s that one thing that I think is really important to name. You are still an effective parent if you just listen in the moment and circle back later and then you can do some teaching. So can agree that that’s helpful, but also why that’s actually super important, I think. And what I think you were doing in the moment with your son is like, okay, he’s disclosing to you something that is risky for him to disclose to you because he’s vulnerable. He knows on some level this is clearly a kid that gets what he is and isn’t supposed to do, right.

Melinda (33:01):

Mhmm.

Dr. Sarah (33:03):

He’s consciously vulnerable to you and offering something. So yes, he’s telling you information, but he’s also asking you something else in that moment that he’s not saying, right? He’s saying, how are you going to deal with this? How are you going to react to me telling you this? And then the parent who very understandably might have a complete fight or flight response to this information, right? Oh my God, how many of us would not have a moment, at least a moment if not a full-blown period of panic, rage, all the things.

(33:42):

But if you can regulate that in the moment, which is super hard to do, but it sounds like you were able to and say, I got flooded with a hit of panic or a rage. I notice it. I’m going to put that over here for a second. I’m going to look at the long game bigger goal. He is asking me, can I tell you these things? And you can either answer yes or no in your actions, and in that moment you chose instead of to teach the rule about what’s right or wrong, which he already knows, you’re teaching a very, very important communication lesson, which is it is safe to tell me these things. It’s not, I permit all behaviors and I’m never going to stop you from doing these risky things, but you could teach that later. There’s tons of time to teach that there is one tiny window for you to teach. Yes, it is safe for you to tell me these things, and I want to reinforce this relationship that you can keep bringing these things to me because all that threat response that gets kicked up when your kid says, I snuck out at two o’clock in the morning, is designed to keep you and your kids safe, right? It’s a good response. It’s a healthy response. But in the big picture, our goal is always to keep our kids healthy and safe.

(35:03):

If you have to choose in a moment, I have 10 seconds to reinforce. You can tell me scary things, risky things, dangerous things, things you need help with. I am setting both of us up to achieve that goal of keeping my kid healthy and safe in the long run, and I got a ten second window to do that, or I could waste that window and I could focus on fitting in a lesson that I have an infinity time to teach, which you choose and it’s hard to do, but I think you just illustrated a really good example of you picked the bigger goal.

Melinda (35:41):

Yeah, that was beautiful what you just said, all of it. I love it and you’ve helped me understand it on a deeper level too. And I think it relates back to lying in a number of ways. I mean, sometimes when my kids admit things to me like, mom, I broke the vase that you said that I should never go near. I remember, okay, I was visiting some friends and there was this moment where their kids were playing football and the yard and they broke a sculpture that was really, really important to the parents. And I was like, oh God.

(36:21):

And they told their parents and they could have gotten away with maybe not. It was a kind of sculpture where you couldn’t really see the damage, but there was also glass on the ground then, and it was like they needed to kind of tell them, and they did. And I watched them go and tell their parents, and I was like, I really hope that their parents in this moment do not immediately punish them because you kind of want to separate the transgression from the honesty. They just opened up and said, mom, I’m really sorry we were playing football and we broke your sculpture that you love. That is something to be rewarded, that they admitted it. They had the courage to go tell their parents to apologize. All those things are wonderful things, and it was amazing their parents did that. The mom said, okay, I do love that sculpture, but thank you for being honest. I know it was a mistake. I know it’s hard for you to come to me with that and we’ll figure out what to do about the broken sculpture in a little bit. And those kinds of responses really teach kids to value honesty and to feel safe, being honest. And if they were to have reacted the other way and immediately screamed at them and said, why were you playing football? All these things, then it’s teaching the opposite, right? Like, oh gosh, next time I guess I better lie. This is terrible when I tell the truth.

Dr. Sarah (37:40):

Right? Yeah. No, I think, and it’s interesting, right? Because you’re a parent, you’re human, you’re allowed to have feelings If your kid does something that you are mad about, it’s okay to say, I am mad. I’m really glad you told me, and I definitely have feelings about this. We can talk about those later. But being super reactive and punitive is not the same thing as you can communicate your feelings and have feelings about your kids’ behaviors without being reactive and punitive. It’s hard to do because if a parent is going to go to that place of like, oh my God, why did you do that? A hundred percent fact they’re in fight or flight, right? They’re in their threat mode. And so most parents who go to that place don’t actually want to go to that place. There are certainly some parents who genuinely believe that punitive discipline is the goal.

(38:45):

I think that research is helping broaden our awareness that that’s not as effective in the long run at doing the things we’re trying to do with our kids. Because even the parent who believes that punitive discipline is the goal, the goal to raise healthy and well-adjusted kids, we all want that. There’s no question parents want that for their kids. How we choose to get there and what we believe is the route is where some people have certain beliefs and some people have others, but the science is consistently showing us that a strictly punitive approach doesn’t really get that outcome. And if you want that outcome, a healthy, well-adjusted child who has the capacity to tolerate following the rules, living in a society where they have to move through them and navigate them and where they will make mistakes, and we want them to be honest about that, and we want them to generally hold other people’s perspectives in mind and be respectful.

(39:51):

All those things doesn’t come from the punitive approach. And even the parents who get that totally fully buy it are in it. When we are in a state of fight or flight, we can go to that punitive place, not because we think it’s the right way to teach these things, but because we’re not thinking we’re flooded with feelings because we’re really mad about the broken statue, or we’re super embarrassed and terrified of being judged by another parent who’s standing there watching us as our kid did something that was unacceptable to them, right? It’s hard, but this is where if you get the why, you can try to come back to that. Let that be your anchor. Be like, okay, I am really mad, or I am really embarrassed, or I’m really scared. I really want to yell and punish and throw my authority into this right now, and what is my bigger goal here? And then you can reflect back on this podcast episode and be like, ah, thank you for telling me. It’s totally safe to come to me with these things. I do have feelings about them, and we’ll solve those problems. Everything is figureoutable, but what’s most important right now is that I kind of utilize the tiny little window I have to reinforce. Yeah, you can tell me these things.

Melinda (41:15):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (41:16):

That’s a very helpful illustration. I think so many parents can relate to these moments.

Melinda (41:24):

They’re so common.

Dr. Sarah (41:26):

Yes, they’re so opportunities. Our kids are figuring it out and they’re going to make a ton of mistakes, and if we help them have a growth mindset, we have to embrace the mistakes and help them understand, okay, it’s not, don’t make mistakes or else bad things are going to happen. I’m going to punish you. It’s will make mistakes, and I want you to be open to trying to figure out how to solve them and fix and repair and keep trying versus there’s good and there’s bad. And if you live in the bad, you are on your own to solve that problem or it’s not solvable. So hide it.

Melinda (42:09):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (42:11):

It does all tie into this. It’s all connected to resilience and growth, mindset and safety. Those are all super, you can’t have resilience or growth mindset if you don’t feel safe.

Melinda (42:23):

Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (42:26):

That’s why I like attachment. That’s why this podcast is called securely attached. That detachment relationship is like if you can focus on that security and this relationship with your kid being the sort of vehicle by which you approach parenting, all this other stuff will fall into place. It will be bumpy for sure, but it moves it in the right direction.

Melinda (42:50):

Yeah, it’s so true. And it’s in my reporting for my book that’s coming out in May, I was really surprised to discover just how far reaching it is. I interviewed some researchers who study polarization and how it develops, and I was like, what can parents do to raise kids who aren’t super polarized? And one of the things they said is basically, don’t jump down your kids’ throats. And because there’s this connection between kids feeling safe and listened to and them being open-minded and being more curious and less judgmental themselves. So there’s all of these ways in which connecting with our kids and being compassionate with them actually affects all these other ways that they think about the world that we may not realize. And so it’s just so incredibly powerful.

Dr. Sarah (43:49):

It really is. But it’s hopeful because it can feel really overwhelming to have to build all these skills and do all these things and read all these research studies. And I love that one. Your books consolidate it, and they make it very accessible to kind of understand, okay, what is the most important stuff to pay attention to and what’s not? But it’s also, there’s a core current that runs and connects all of these things. And if you really just really just attend to that, a lot of the rest of it will fall into place. You don’t have to actually remember all of these things all the time and be constantly juggling all these balls to make a child a competent and compassionate citizen of our society and our families. Just attuning to them and creating safety in our relationships kind of leads to all of the things.

Melinda (44:48):

Yeah, it really does. And the research really, really supports that. It’s fascinating. It really is. I mean, I was shocked at how there were these very simple things that kept coming up over and over again when I would interview researchers who study very different skills and they’d be like, they were all basically telling me the same thing. And one of those things is connecting with your kids, being curious, listening to them. It just builds so many skills in kids. It’s just very, very powerful.

Dr. Sarah (45:23):

And talk about counterintuitive. I mean, I think the title of your first book, How to Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes. I think a huge fear of many people in our society is if you tend to the relationship and the safety first, your kids are going to be entitled. And that is actually very, very, very much the opposite, which is good to say. It’s good to name that. I think if anything, probably the majority of the people who listen to this podcast, if anything, I’m pulling them more into the middle of the other extreme of don’t worry. Not everything is going to, you can do less of the emotional reassurance and you can just relax a little bit. Your kids are going to be good. And I know there are also people who listen to this podcast who might be afraid, is this going to turn my kid into this soft entitled needs to be constantly gentled for the rest of their life? And I think the answer is no, it’s not. It actually is going to make them stronger, solid, confident, know who they are, respect others, be capable of holding the needs of other people while still saying, I have needs too. And that’s important. How do we navigate that? I don’t know. That flexibility and that compassion comes from us being flexible and compassionate with our kids and getting them grace, and also knowing developmentally, how many skills do they have in this moment? It evolves. They’re not adults yet. They’ll get there.

Melinda (47:10):

Right, right. Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (47:14):

If people want to find out more about your work or pre-order, your new book, Hello Cruel World, how can they connect with you? How can they support your work?

Melinda (47:28):

So I have a website, which is melinda weer moyer.com, and there’s links to everything on there. I mean, my books, both of them, you can get anywhere. The one that’s coming out in May isn’t actually available yet, but you can pre-order it on from your local bookstore from Amazon if you prefer whatever you would like. I also have a Substack newsletter where I answer parenting questions and I look at parenting issues through the lens of science. Right now it’s called Is My Kid The Asshole? But the name is Changing to Now what in another few months. But you can always find it by just putting my website or putting my name in Google and then putting Substack in and you’ll find it. So that’s another good way to keep up with what I’m doing.

Dr. Sarah (48:15):

Amazing. Oh my God. I’m going to sign up for your newsletter for sure. Awesome. So many people, amazing writers are doing Substack now, and I’m getting very excited about it. It’s like access to longer, deeper thoughts instead of these Instagram soundbites that I think we’re all getting a little tired of, but still follow me on Instagram, everybody and listen to my soundbites. Just two podcasts to get the full deep thoughts.

Melinda (48:42):

Yes, exactly. They’re both valuable. They both have merit for different reasons, but yes, I do love being able to write that.

Dr. Sarah (48:49):

And peopel can follow you on Instagram as well, right?

Melinda (48:51):

That’s right. Yes, @melindawmoyer.

Dr. Sarah (48:52):

Amazing. Well, this was delightful. Thank you so much for coming on. I’m really excited to read your new book when it comes out.

Melinda (49:01):

Thank you. Yeah, this was so fun. I feel like we really got in deeply into some really important ideas and parenting strategies, so this was awesome.

Dr. Sarah (49:10):

Yeah, it felt good. Thank you. If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you, share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on. And let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me, and just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how the show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.