Lisa (00:00):

So I think the first thing that parents need to understand is that your child has two parents and both parents make up this child. And it’s really important to always think in the best interest of the child because you can’t go wrong in thinking about the best interests of the child.

Dr. Sarah (00:23):

One of the most overwhelming aspects that comes with separation or divorce for parents is the legal piece of the process, figuring out your rights, your options, and how to protect your children’s wellbeing through it all. And the truth is there isn’t a one size fits all approach, but there are systems of support available and today’s guest is here to walk us through them. Joining me today is Lisa Zeiderman. Lisa Zeiderman is managing partner at Miller Zeiderman LLP based in New York, a matrimonial attorney, CFL and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. She regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters. In addition to offering a well-read blog on Psychology Today called Legal Matters, Understanding Mental Health Issues as they Apply to Divorce and Child Custody. Ms. Derman is regularly published in Financial Advisor Magazine, the New York Law Journal and by the Forbes Business Council. In our conversation we talk about the different legal paths available to families, what it means to have a court appointed advocate, the realities of custody decisions and what helps support the best interests of your children. So whether you’re at the beginning stages of considering a separation or you’re deep in the process and looking for guidance, this episode will help you better understand your options and feel more confident and empowered as you move through this big transition.

(01:44):

Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights so you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. This is Securely Attached.

(02:13):

Lisa Zeiderman, welcome to the podcast.

Lisa (02:18):

So nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sarah (02:22):

I’m really looking forward to this conversation. It’s an important one. So you are a matrimonial and family law attorney and I imagine within in that role there are many hats that you may wear. Can you help families who are perhaps considering divorce in the middle of divorce coming off of the wave of a divorce? Can you help them understand a little bit about what you do and the different types of roles someone might seek out like litigation versus mediation and all that sort of support that the pathways people can take?

Lisa (03:01):

So I think there was a few different pathways people can take. So let me just explain. I think what are the three pathways that people can take? They can actually go through mediation, which we’ll go through in a second, or they can actually use something called collaborative law or they can actually go to an attorney who will negotiate, try to resolve, and if not, you may end up in court and that person may litigate your issues before a court. So those are the three main pathways. Mediation being a place that you would really need to advocate for yourself for the most part you’d be before a mediator, the other parent would be before the mediator with you and you would be essentially going through these sessions where you would be literally telling your narrative, trying to do the very best that you can with the other parent to try to get to a resolution collaborative law where you essentially are doing it and sometimes you use some experts and specialists in the field as well, but when you go into collaborative, you have signed on not to litigate, you will be using attorneys, but if those attorneys are not able to resolve your case in collaborative law, then you need to actually move on to different attorneys.

(04:13):

It’s the reason I frankly am not a fan of collaborative law because I think that as an attorney I learn everything that there is about your case and your kids and by the time you’ve gone through the collaborative case, if it’s not resolved, all of that knowledge that you’ve paid frankly for me to have would be lost. And then there’s the third, which is that, and this is really what we do. We either guide people through mediation, sometimes we’re in the background guiding them and we will review the agreement or we work with a client and advocate for that client try to get to a settlement or a resolution through negotiation. And if we can’t do that, then we go to the court and we ask the court for a certain relief and we advocate in court at that point. That doesn’t mean by the way, you can’t reach a resolution. At some point you might reach a resolution even though you were in court, but if you can’t reach a resolution at the very end there would be a trial and the court would make a decision as to what would happen with custody.

Dr. Sarah (05:13):

Got it. And in your experience, I know you’ve worked with many, many families for a long time. In your experience, what tends to be, are there certain types of divorce profiles if you will, relationship challenge profiles that tend to, okay, mediation might be a step that you could consider there’s more success rates in this profile versus certain types of levels of conflict that if you’re here litigation is very likely and to, I’m curious if you found patterns.

Lisa (05:52):

So there are definitely patterns. I’ll start at the most obvious pattern from my point of view, which is if there is alcoholism or addiction or substance abuse of some sort or domestic violence, that tends to become a litigated case because you’re not able to advocate for yourself necessarily in a room with the other parent if that’s the situation where the other parent has some of those issues. And sometimes the other parent doesn’t recognize that they have those issues or won’t admit that they have those issues and it gets to a point of basically being out of control and your children may be in danger and so you need to actually be in a courtroom to make sure that you get the things that you need, which may be orders of protection or supervised access for the other parent, et cetera. So I think that that’s the first.

(06:41):

I think if one of the parents is basically a narcissist, so maybe very charismatic, very controlling, manipulative, lying, all of those things put together, that may be a recipe for a litigated case or certainly a case where you need an attorney who can really advocate for you. Because I think when people have to deal with that narcissistic personality on an ongoing basis, they tend to just become shrinking violences almost because they feel like they can’t ever win in that situation. And when I say win, they can’t really get what they need for their children or themselves. So I think that that’s an area. And then of course if there’s been domestic violence or there’s some sort of a controlling personality for one of the parents, I think that also is an area where sometimes you need an attorney who can be a really strong advocate. I’m going to use the word advocate as opposed to litigation because I don’t think you always have to be in the courtroom and I think people tend to think of litigation in court. I think there’s also other ways that you litigate through proposals and negotiation and all of those things. But I think that those are areas where people, if they feel controlled, if they feel that they’re unsafe in some way, those are areas that you need a strong advocate.

Dr. Sarah (08:09):

I would think too, anytime, even if it’s not so overt as abuse or someone having a significant mental health issue, that if there’s a really significant power differential in the relationship or imbalance to that, that there might need more advocacy, right?

Lisa (08:25):

Absolutely. And it may be because of what your spouse or the other parent does actually for a living. I mean maybe the other parent is an attorney or maybe the other parent is a therapist or there could be a lot of different types of employment where you just feel that there is some sort of a power dynamic and that you are in a situation where you just don’t feel as strong going in and you don’t feel like you’re going to be able to be toe to toe essentially with this person on an equal playing field so that you can feel that you are safe in advocating for what you believe is in your children’s best interests.

Dr. Sarah (09:09):

Yeah, it also sounds like one of the factors that really is a prerequisite for being able to have success in amicability and having it go easy is for two well adults with reflective capacity to be able to show up to the conversation, which I imagine you still see in litigation, but probably would be a prerequisite for a lot of success in mediation.

Lisa (09:39):

So I think for mediation to be a success, you need to have some sort of trust, first of all between the two people who are in the room for mediation. I think that’s the other thing is it’s about trust and can we be honest and can I state what my views are and also what my goals are honestly and truthfully and not be afraid of repercussion later when we leave the room. So I think that that’s also a very significant thing to think about. And I think that you also need to be in a room with somebody who you’re not going to feel is disparaging and degrading you and that you are on your two adults looking to be there because you want to figure out the best thing for your kids. That’s really what this should be about. If you’re doing a mediation, look, that’s what it should be about if you’re doing anything frankly. But I think that sometimes that’s very difficult to do as you are also dealing with financial issues in a divorce or you are dealing with maybe feelings because someone is breaking up with you or you’re breaking up with someone. And so sometimes I think it’s just too difficult to do in a mediation.

Dr. Sarah (10:55):

And so if people come to work with you, what does that process look like?

Lisa (10:58):

So we do a first consultation. They come in and they basically tell me why they’re there and what their relationship is like with their kids, what the other parent’s relationship is also with the children, who is the primary caregiver? If there is a primary caregiver at all, who’s taking the kids to the doctor or the dentist or the therapist on an ongoing basis who is picking up the children from school at their school, dropping them off, who’s preparing breakfast and dinner and what’s the daily routine? We talk about all of that in a consultation. And then of course we also talk about the financial issues. Is there a stay-at-home parent? Is there not a stay at home home parent? Is everybody working? Is there a childcare provider who’s going to go back and forth?

(11:49):

What are the goals essentially, what’s the schedule that you can see for yourself and for the other parent? Have you had conversations with the other parent about the fact that you’re coming here today or that you are thinking of some sort of either a separation or a divorce depending upon whether you’re married or you’re not married and what is that other person saying to you? So perhaps that other person is threatening you, perhaps that other person is saying, let’s just do this calmly. A lot depends on what the other person’s reaction to all of this is. So we talk about all that. And then of course we do get into the finances, we talk about the assets and the liabilities and income and what support is going to look like and how division of assets is going to occur. And before you know it, we’ve had an hour long conversation, but it’s been quite comprehensive and people leave usually with a lot of information and we talk about some better perhaps ways to deal with some of the issues that are going on in the household also because it may actually be quite turbulent at that point when people come to see us.

(12:55):

Then if somebody retains us, we move on to the next steps. We might write a letter, we might actually file for a divorce, we might put in a petition, depends what is going on in the case, and sooner or later there’s hopefully another attorney on the case on the other side. And we try to then figure out along with financial discovery, how do we reach a settlement, a conclusion, a resolution, and whether that’s going to be possible, perhaps it’s not going to be possible. And at that point we do end up filing in court and going through the court.

Dr. Sarah (13:32):

Got it. So if you’re looking for the path of mediation, that would be one mediator working with both of the parents, right?

Lisa (13:41):

That’s correct.

Dr. Sarah (13:41):

And then if you’re doing collaborative law, well I’ll ask you about that. I don’t know the answer to this, but what I meant, so then if we were going to go into the path of litigation, each parent would have their own attorney and that would be sort of, each attorney would be representing those individual interests of each individual parent and helping coordinate this whole process. That’s correct. How about with collaborative law?

Lisa (14:11):

So you still have an attorney for each person, but it’s a little different. First of all, you’re doing all these meetings together. You may be having a parenting coordinator in the meetings, you may be adding to the team essentially. So as opposed to having your own team that you are meeting with, maybe you’re meeting with them altogether. Collaborative law has a whole set of rules and regulations. Again, I’m going to be honest, I am not a fan of collaborative law and I don’t practice collaborative law. I don’t because I actually feel like it’s, I always give the analogy, I feel like if I was a, and I could only go in with certain tools, I couldn’t come in with my scalpel. That’s what I feel like collaborative law is. I can’t go in and litigate if I’m in collaborative law. So to me, I go and you could only go so far and then you have to stop essentially. And if you didn’t get to the resolution, then everybody goes away who just learned everything about your case and you have to now go out and find that person who can actually advocate for you in a different way.

Dr. Sarah (15:21):

So from what I’m understanding, collaborative law cannot go into litigation.

Lisa (15:26):

That’s correct. It’s limited. It’s limited to collaboratively working this out. And once you don’t do that, then you cannot use those attorneys anymore or those professionals, they are all gone.

Dr. Sarah (15:38):

Okay. So you need to again know that you have some degree of confidence that if you’re going to go the collaborative law approach that you need to have two relatively healthy and capable adults who are wanting to work it out on someone. You both have to kind of want to collaborate.

Lisa (15:57):

A hundred percent and you have to have a lot of trust because you may not do the same kind of discovery and the same kind of depth in terms of perhaps experts, et cetera that you do when you actually have an advocate.

Dr. Sarah (16:12):

Right, okay. Which makes sense. And I think it’s helpful to clarify because the reality is, I mean I’ve worked with a lot of families going through divorce in terms of just help supporting kind of a parenting strategy and working with parents, helping them support their children. And frankly, if you are really invested in doing that, chances are you might have a few more psychological resources going into. So I see a lot of families who are able to navigate a divorce process relatively collaboratively, but that also is a self-selecting group that also comes to parenting support and family therapy, and they really are really very genuinely two feet in on doing this in a really supportive, collaborative way. And there is trust in their relationship and they do want to just don’t want to be married anymore.

Lisa (17:02):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah (17:04):

And it sounds like the reality is a lot of people who get divorced don’t have that level of amicability, mutual trust, mutual respect, mutual shared goals or vision for how they want to proceed with the raising this family. And so having a space that is really supportive of parents who do not have a fair powered differential or don’t feel like they have safe footing in the relationship or really don’t have a sense of trust or safety going into this divorce, that going straight to the highest level of advocacy and support might be really important.

Lisa (17:43):

So I think that’s right. I think that if you don’t feel that you’re going to be able to sit the room or at the kitchen table and work this out, then likely you need an advocate.

Dr. Sarah (17:56):

And in your advocacy work, it sounds like there’s lots of levels.

Lisa (18:01):

There’s a lot of tiers. That’s exactly right. Okay. There are lots of levels. So we don’t start off at the 10 at the fire, we start off at that one or two, and then the question is what occurs? A perfect example, we started off at a one or a two a few weeks ago in a case, maybe it’s now a month, but the person on the other side decided that they were moving around millions of dollars after we started our case and money was already disappearing and we had to rush into court in order to prevent that. Or someone decides that they are no longer going to allow the other parent to have access to a child and they move out with a child. Happened in a very recent case, a person moved with a child all of a sudden into another county two hours away.

(18:56):

Well of course we had to be in court in an immediate moment so that our client had access and our client was able to see the child and all of those things because according to that other parent, that client wasn’t really going to be able to see that child. So there are times when you need an attorney who can move quickly and who can move efficiently and who’s going to get you what you need because you don’t want to be prejudiced. If that person didn’t come to us and they sat essentially on their hands for six months, somebody would say, well, why didn’t you do anything? Why didn’t you go and make sure that you could actually see your child? Where have you been? Right? I see. Even though it was only two weeks, I was already at like, where have you been? We quickly did what is called an order to show. Cause we got into court, we negotiated an access schedule that was actually an equal access schedule for our client who was a dad in that case. But the reason was that the mom who was really probably took care of the child most of the time, she decided essentially to cut the father out. And that’s a big no. And so people really need to understand that whole aspect of making sure that you’re including both parents, nobody has a greater right to the child at the very beginning.

Dr. Sarah (20:21):

Which kind of moves us into some custody questions. I think a lot of people are quite scared whether you’re a mom or a dad. I think if you really are contemplating divorce, I would imagine one of the biggest barriers to really moving forward with that is fears around custody. And we can talk about fears around the impact to the children. I think that’s another very significant overlapping but distinct, I think fear. But let’s talk a minute about custody and what you have learned in this work in terms of how to best support parents, how to orient them to the best interests of the children. How does it play out? What are fears you see?

Lisa (21:03):

So I think the first thing that parents need to understand is that your child has two parents and both parents make up this child, and it’s really important to always think in the best interest of the child. You can’t go wrong in thinking about the best interest of the child. You really cannot, once you’re thinking about the best interest of the child, you are doing the right thing at that point. And so I think that that word fostering is not a word. That’s not Lisa Hederman’s word. That is a word that is used in the court system, frankly, it’s used at the appellate division level, which is like there’s a trial division level, which is the regular court, and then there’s the next level. And when the decisions come down and someone loses custody, it is very often because they have decided that they were not going to foster a relationship with the other parent.

(21:59):

What does that mean? Right? That’s the big question. How do you do that? Well, first you have to understand that it is in the best interest of your child to have two parents in their lives. And I think when people lose sight of that, that becomes the issue. And so making sure, for example, that you include the other parent, making sure the other parent knows when the doctor’s appointments are, when the therapist appointments are, when the school conferences are, sometimes I hear the word, well, I’m not the secretary. Well, no, you’re not the secretary, but isn’t it better for your child, for both parents to be included in these things and making sure that you would include the other parent in the extracurricular activities and that you get the child ready if there’s access time for the child with the other parent, you get the child ready, you make sure that the child has their favorite things, don’t withhold things so that the child feels uncomfortable going to the axis.

(22:59):

You want the child to actually want to go to the axis because that shows that you are able to put the child first. It also is good for your child. So these are the things, make sure your child has the stuffed animal that they love. Okay, it’s okay to share the stuffed animal back and forth between the two households. And so I think what we see a lot of the time is that somebody is unable to foster this relationship that’s disparaging, denigrating. It may be to someone in the child’s life. So for example, sometimes the doctor, for example, the other parent isn’t even listed as a parent on the forms for the doctor. Well, how could you do that if the child has two? There’s two spaces for both parents and you’ve decided not to list that other parent as if they don’t exist.

Dr. Sarah (23:51):

Are you seeing that happen during the marriage and then you are potentially risking having a case made against you that you weren’t including the parent in the child’s life, or are you seeing that more once there’s a separation period and they’re actually kind of in two spaces and they’re not including?

Lisa (24:08):

That’s a great question. We see it in both. And sometimes it just is a continuation and sometimes worse, yet it’s something new. But certainly we see a lot going as we go through and sometimes we’re surprised when we see it, right? We have subpoenaed records from the doctor or from a school and we see it and we’re like, oh my God. And sometimes it’s our own client who has done it, and we have to say, don’t ever do that again. So making sure that the child is aware of the other parent for Father’s Day or Mother’s Day or all of those small things. Years ago I had a case and my client was asked on the stand, what does she do to foster a relationship with the other parent? And she said, I objected. And the judge said, no, we’re going to hear it. It wasn’t really what the case was about, but he heard it anyway.

(25:05):

And at the end, the other attorney said, see, she just alienates the child. And the judge said, and I’ll never forget, no, that was the best answer that I’ve ever heard for fostering. She could do actually a lesson on it. And so what did she say? She said, when I go to a school play or a school event, I always save a seat for the other parent. When my child speaks to me about science, I say, you know, should give your dad a call because he knows so much about science and I bet he can help you with that assignment. She said she watches her body language, she watches how she speaks about the other parent. She makes sure that she’s always positive about the other parent. These are all the things that she does to make sure she thinks about Father’s Day and she thinks about birthdays and she makes sure that the other child, I’m sorry, that the child has all the things that the child needs to get ready and to be excited. The time with the other parent is calendared so the child can look forward to it and they can talk about what they’re going to do with the other parent. So all of these things are things that you can do to foster a relationship with the other parent, and that was so important.

Dr. Sarah (26:25):

Yeah. I’m curious, what was the other lawyer thinking or citing when they said that’s alienating?

Lisa (26:32):

I have no idea. Neither did the judge actually at that moment because there was nothing alienating about the behavior. So I think that sometimes people just use words and they hope that they catch on. But the fact is that this particular client was fostering a relationship with the father and she really wanted the child to have a relationship with the father. Her goal was not to undermine that relationship. Part of it is you have to really want it. It’s not just for a court case. You have to really want it.

Dr. Sarah (27:07):

Yeah. If you’re listening to this episode, I imagine there might be a lot on your plate right now. I hope this podcast can be a good first step in helping you feel seen, guided, and held with psychologically and scientifically backed information you can trust. And for the moms who are looking to get additional support as you navigate a separation or divorce, I want to share a resource that might be helpful. At my group practice Up brand psychology group, we offer a virtual support group specifically for women navigating separation or divorce. This is a space where you don’t have to carry the weight of this transition alone, whether you’re still deciding what’s next in the middle of legal proceedings or working to rebuild your life on the other side, this group is here to offer support community and tools to help you feel more grounded and empowered, led by expert clinicians. The Women’s Divorce Group is designed to help you process what you’re going through, find clarity around your needs and boundaries, and gain coping strategies for everything from grief and guilt to co-parenting and identity shifts. To learn more about this group, you can visit our website up your brand.com or just go to the episode description wherever you’re streaming the show to get links directly to learn more about this group or schedule a free 30 minute consultation so we can help guide you with suggestions for the best support options to meet your unique needs.

(28:34):

And yeah, I mean I have lots of thoughts on what’s in the best interest for a child. And I know it’s tricky because on the one hand, I think we can all agree that it is best for the child to have an opportunity to have a healthy relationship with both parents point blank. Now, healthy being an operative part of that, right? Because if a parent is unable to nurture a healthy relationship with that child, part of the other parent’s thought process needs to be creating some boundaries and protection for that child. But very rarely, and of course there are certain cases where it is truly not safe for that kid to be in contact with that parent and helping them process that experience, that reality, their grief is the step. But that is far away the exception, not the rule. And I think even if the shape of that relationship is not completely matching for both parents, the parent who may have the healthier relationship with child, who genuinely does want to create some healthy boundaries between the child and the other parent, it’s still important to let that child have a safe and healthy relationship with that parent because the more attachment figures, the more secure we can allow that child to have a relationship with that parent, the more we can help.

(30:04):

I mean, that’s just good for the kid. And sometimes what’s good for the kid might be really, really, really challenging for the parent. And so I want to name that, I want to acknowledge that, but I’m curious what your thoughts are and what you’ve seen has been helpful when there are really genuinely tricky dynamics in the family where a parent isn’t just gatekeeping the child, they really are ambivalent about how much can this child succeed in a relationship with this parent?

Lisa (30:40):

So I think there’s a couple of things. So let’s first start with safety. I think safety is important. If you feel your child is truly unsafe with the other parent because there’s perhaps substance abuse or alcoholism or some sort of violence, then you obviously need to do something because you can’t just let that go on. So I think that that is really important. It’s not, you can’t just, sometimes people come to me and they’ve taken all these notes over a period of time and I’m like, what do you think we’re going to do with all these notes? What was the point of all these notes you just sat by as if you were watching theater, this is your child, you needed to do something about it. So I think there’s that. This is not about building your case, this is about making sure your child is safe.

(31:25):

So that first and foremost, we need take that and put that aside. The next is I think that sometimes people feel that they have been the primary caregiver for the children and because they have been the primary caregiver for the children, they should continue in that role. And the other parent should rarely be with the children because that may have been the dynamic frankly, during the marriage. Perhaps there was a parent who was primarily home and perhaps there was a parent who was never home because they were working or they were doing something else. I think there’s something else has to be qualified. What that something else was because if they were, for example, having their affairs or out with their friends or out doing things where they could have spent time with their children and they chose not to, that’s one thing. If they were trying to support their family and there was one wage earner or someone was a much greater wage earner, then that may have been a reason and they relied on the other person to do the parenting.

(32:35):

But that doesn’t mean that now that people are essentially splitting up, that that’s going to continue, that person is going to build their relationship and you’re going to have your relationship. And so there is going to be access for both parents. It may not be equal access, it doesn’t have to be equal access. We’re not being counters here, but certainly it should be significant time with both parents and substantial time with both parents. And sometimes it may be equal access, by the way, it just depends on the situation, and we look at each situation as it comes to us. But I think that people get very set in this idea that they can only be in their home. The children can only be in their home and they can only be under one roof. And that’s not a reality In divorce, as you probably know, there is going to be transitions between two homes because now there are going to be two homes.

(33:33):

And I think that that is a very big source of reasons, frankly, that some people don’t ever get divorced because they just don’t want their children to go back and forth between two homes. And so they may put up, frankly, with very bad abuse sometimes. So there may be a significant reason why people do not get divorced. And that reason may be that they really don’t want their children to go back and forth between two homes. They don’t believe that that is in the best interest of the children. Look, whether it’s in the very best interest, I don’t know, that’s not my domain, that’s more your domain. But I will say that so many children do go back and forth between two homes. And so many children have great lives, including my daughter, by the way, who grew up and she went back and forth between two homes. So it can happen.

Dr. Sarah (34:28):

And just anecdotally, and I know I mentioned earlier, I understand that there’s some level of intentionality and commitment to centering the experience of the child if you’re coming to my practice to do parenting, co-parenting support and child and family therapy. But I see all the time, and I say this, I get a lot of parents who are feeling deeply guilty or have tremendous shame or fear or grief around what their children are going to go through as a result of them divorcing. And a lot of times I’m saying to parents, what we go through is not what determines how we turn out, it’s how we can make sense of what we go through and how safe we feel in the process of going through the hard thing, how not alone we feel in the process of going through the hard things, kids can handle a lot of adversity.

(35:32):

And you look at kids who go through divorce, and there are some that really struggle and there are some that are okay. And what seems to be the predictors of being more okay is that they don’t feel alone. They have opportunities to make sense of what’s going on. Their experience is validated and listened to and held central. And so I think I’m an advocate for family wellness and sometimes family wellness takes the form of separated families. I really feel very strongly that families can come in all shapes and sizes, and there’s definitely a path towards divorce that can be, I’m not saying it might not be challenging for your kids, but it doesn’t have to be traumatizing and it doesn’t have to be damaging. And so I don’t know, I imagine you see this as well, but parents can feel tremendous guilt and fear about this.

Lisa (36:37):

I think that’s a hundred percent correct. And what we also find so much of the time is that the children already knew that there was a problem. The children actually knew that their parents were at some point going to get divorced. And when they are told that their parents are getting divorced, very often they feel relieved because there has been such tension in the household and nobody was talking about what was going to happen and their friends’ parents were getting divorced. And it’s not like it was a foreign concept to a lot of these kids. They knew they’ve been speaking to their friends, they’ve been speaking to family members, there was arguing in the household. It made them feel uncomfortable. Now everything is calmer since now frankly, there are attorneys involved or since their parents have decided that they’re getting divorced or maybe there’s a family therapist involved.

(37:32):

And so things actually have been calmer since the announcement of a divorce. And we see this, and I see this sometimes when I’m actually representing children, is that sometimes I’ll say to them, how did you feel when you heard your parents? But we knew that they were getting divorced. We always knew that they were getting divorced. They would yell at each other, and how is it now? Well, they’re not yelling at each other anymore. And how do you feel? It’s so much better. It’s so much calmer. And so I think that people do feel tremendous guilt and they feel concerned that their children are going to suffer somehow because of the divorce. But the fact is perhaps that their children were suffering because everybody was living in the same house and it was very toxic.

Dr. Sarah (38:20):

But I do think there are some variables also that make things more for those kids that say, oh, I’m relieved. What I would imagine tends to change is a sense of chaos, a sense of irritability intention, a sense of confusion or unpredictability being replaced by, and this is where I think it’s important if you want to sort of protect children from having negative impacts from the divorce as much as you can, things like more predictability, more organization, more communication, more space for them to process things, space for them to have mixed complex feelings, like a part of them might feel relieved and a part of them might feel furious and a part of them might feel scared and a part of them might feel sad. And being able to help them understand those are all present. They all are okay to have, and you are still safe, these are the things that will stay the same.

(39:16):

These relationships are going to be prioritized. You are going to be prioritized. So this isn’t your fault and you didn’t do anything to make this happen. Just helping the separate themselves because kids will fill in the blanks. And so I think there are ways to do divorce well, and I think there are ways that divorce can genuinely not really be problematic for a child. So I just think, and feel free to add any thoughts you have in terms of things you’ve seen that have been particularly helpful for setting a child up for success to navigate a divorce or co-parenting situation.

Lisa (39:52):

I think that most importantly, children I think respond to routine and they respond to the fact that things are the same even between their parents in the sense that their routine is the same. So maybe they do homework at the same time in both households or they’re eating dinner at the same time, or they have a certain bedtime routine and a bedtime that they do in both households. Also, how your parents react when it’s time to FaceTime the other parent, is this smooth sailing or is this like, oh, this is like you’ve got to call your mom or you’ve got to call your dad, or I’m so sorry you have to do this, or all of those kinds of things. Or instead, your dad really wants to talk to you, tell ’em all about your dad or your mom really can’t wait to hear from you.

(40:47):

It’s all about the approach I think, and about how they see their parents get along when they go to a sporting event, for example, a game, are their parents sitting one end on one side and other on the other side? And when they meet at that end for the child to say goodbye, is there a lot of yelling right at that moment? Or is it nice and everybody’s kissing goodbye and one parent is on their way, or is this going to be like a 15 minute goodbye and everybody’s crying? Okay. So there is so many different techniques, and I think frankly, working with a therapist makes this so much smoother for people if they can get into the same room and they can all actually have the same goal, which is to make the children feel the most comfortable and to have this relationship with both of their parents, that’s the end goal here.

Dr. Sarah (41:41):

Yeah. You were mentioning before we hit record that there are some resources that you’ve found to be really helpful for supporting parents to co-parent more effectively. When you’re learning a new skill, you’re learning a new way of being with a person who probably on small levels or massive levels, you are not able to get along very well in the relationship, and now you have to try to repair and get along in different roles and maybe the separate lives might allow it to be doable. But what are some resources that you’ve found to be really helpful for families who have to relearn how to communicate more effectively?

Lisa (42:22):

So we often recommend what’s called a co-parenting app for parents to communicate. There’s several of them. There’s our Family Wizard talking parents, there’s several of them. But what’s great about them is they are really geared to isolating parenting issues. So you’re not going back and forth in all these emails and text messages and things get lost, and frankly, you forget you missed an email, et cetera. So these apps actually, you sign up, both parents sign up for them and you literally can see when the parent opened them on the other side. When you’re supposed to get your answer, people learn how to respond to them. There’s one of these apps that Family Wizard has a tone meter. So if your tone is actually bad, something goes along, then they actually will help you get your tone to be in a better place. So I think that those types of apps are great and people are sometimes resistant to them, frankly, but I think they’re great apps to actually be utilizing for co-parenting.

(43:27):

And they just keep everything so streamlined and together and you focused on it as opposed to it’s coming into your work email or it is like all day long and these emails are coming in and you’re trying to answer them along with all your other emails. So that is one thing I would say having some sort of a family therapist is a great thing to have. I think that people need to be able to touch base. Lots of times in our cases, the children are also in therapy, either for a short time or a longer time. They may have been in therapy before they came to us, the children, but a lot of times they need to be able to process the divorce and they need to be able to process the fact that there are two homes now, et cetera. And this helps to do it.

(44:11):

And some of the therapists might have parenting sessions that they do with the parents about the children. And that also is very helpful. If things are very difficult, if there’s mental health illness, then sometimes a forensic psychologist or a psychiatrist or social worker is actually appointed by a court to do an evaluation of the family and to see essentially what is going on in the family and to actually speak to each person’s therapist, some of the collaterals, the schools, the doctors, all of those people, and obviously to meet the parties and to also meet with the children and to meet with the children and the parties. So sometimes that sometimes happens, and sometimes there is, if it’s a litigated matter, an attorney may be appointed for your children so that somebody can be advocating for their rights essentially and for what they want, and so that they have a voice as well.

Dr. Sarah (45:11):

That’s very interesting that there can be a child appointed attorney.

Lisa (45:15):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (45:16):

What are situations that would warrant that?

Lisa (45:19):

So in most custody cases in court, and I’m actually on the panel for appointed attorney, so I’m often appointed the children actually get a voice. And so when they’re very young, there may be a guardian ad litem appointed where they actually substitute their judgment in place of what the children might want because the children don’t yet really have a voice. And so they will go in and after they’ve spoken to the doctors and pediatrician and schools and daycares and all that, and give the judge their view, judge does not have to follow their view. It’s another voice in the courtroom. Sometimes the children are of an age where maybe there 7, 8, 10, 15. Okay, 17 because 18 custody ends, remember? But all of those ages that I just mentioned where they have real desires and very good cogent reasons for this, and they meet with their attorney and their attorney will go into court and actually express their views.

(46:23):

There’s confidentiality between the children and their attorney. So to the degree that they want their views expressed, they will be. And to the degree that they don’t, the attorney’s very careful to do that. And then sometimes at the end of a very litigated case where there’s been a trial, a judge will actually hold what’s called an in-camera where the judge meets with the attorney for the children and the children and actually speaks to the children directly. It’s behind closed doors. The parents never hear or see what the children have said. It is recorded by a court reporter. It is never given to the parents. If there’s a court appeal, there’s an appeal, then it could go to the appellate division, but that would be the only other people that would see it besides the judge. So these are all different avenues. And by the way, people shouldn’t get scared if their children actually are appointed an attorney. It’s okay. A lot of times they actually like to have a voice. They want to have a voice and they want to to this person.

Dr. Sarah (47:32):

And I think it helps them, again, talking about what’s going to set a kid up for success, going through something challenging and being able to feel as though you have a voice and your voice is honored and considered that agency helps with the coping, I think. When we feel like we have agency rather than feeling like we are being done to, especially for teenagers, I think all kids very much, but I think it becomes exceptionally acute in adolescence that when our sense of agency is fostered, is honored, doesn’t mean we always get what we want. It just means we feel heard. Right? A hundred percent. We are going to face something that we have feelings about, even if it isn’t what we wanted, knowing that we had some say and that our voice was heard helps us cope with the adversity part much, much better. And I imagine even if your child doesn’t have a court appointed attorney, that there are ways to invite them into having a voice. I mean, that’s a big part of what a family therapy would be.

Lisa (48:42):

Yes. Yes, that is true. And I will say it’s funny. So one judge has always said, this is always his line about it. They have a voice but not evoked. So at the end of the day, their voice will have been heard, but the judge is going to decide or their parents are going to decide what is going to be best for them. But they had a voice and they had an opportunity to be heard, and that was very important to them.

Dr. Sarah (49:10):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s so important. Well, you do some incredibly complicated and difficult work.

Lisa (49:20):

Yes, we have quite the day, I’ll say that.

Dr. Sarah (49:23):

Well, I’m glad that you took the time to speak with us. I think it’s really helpful for parents to get a sense of what this really looks like and just different things to think about. And obviously we’re probably just scratching the surface and if people are interested in learning more about just resources to become more, feel more educated about what their options are, but also if they want to work with you. I know you have a ton of resources. You have a website, what can we connect people to you with?

Lisa (49:55):

So they can go to my blog. That is the place where I have most of my resources, and that’s the place where they can also, there’s a contact sheet and they can go through that. It’s lisa zeidman.com, and so it’s L-I-S-A-Z-E-I-D-E-R-M-A-N.com. Or they can email me at lz@mzw-law.com. And the blog has a lot of resources, podcasts, newspaper articles, articles that I’ve written, videos, et cetera. And there really is a lot of information including about lots of custody issues. So I highly recommend it for people who want to get some more information.

Dr. Sarah (50:39):

Yeah, I think it’s amazing that you do that because I think a lot of times there’s a lot of barrier to entry to understanding what your legal rights are. And so I think helping people have access to information, whether or not they’re ready to take that step, is a very generous thing that you do.

Lisa (50:59):

Thank you, thank you,

Dr. Sarah (51:01):

Thank you. And we will put all the links to all of that in the show notes so people can find you easily. And it was really lovely talking with you.

Lisa (51:12):

It was lovely talking with you.

Dr. Sarah (51:19):

Thanks so much for listening to Securely Attached. If this podcast has helped you feel more grounded or supported in your parenting journey, there’s something really simple you can do that makes a huge difference for me as I put this show together for you each week, and that’s hitting follow wherever you’re streaming this episode. Following the show, or even leaving a quick review helps tell the algorithm that this podcast is valuable and gets the show into the ears of more parents just like you. So if you’re willing to take that extra moment, whether it’s following on your favorite platform or being an overachiever and following us on all of them or leaving a short review, I just want you to know it means so much to me. I’m so grateful you’re here. Thank you for being part of this community and don’t be a stranger.