277. Q&A: Is “nesting” during a divorce better for your kids?

Beyond the Sessions is answering YOUR parenting questions! In this episode, Dr. Rebecca Hershberg and I talk about…

  • What does it mean to be “nesting” during a divorce?
  • What types of logistical and emotional factors to consider to help you determine if this is a good choice for your family.
  • What are the pros and cons of nesting for kids (and for you!)
  • How to help kids feel secure during a separation, whether you’ve decided to nest with your ex or not.
  • A script for helping your child understand the difference between love in a parent-child relationship and love in a romantic adult relationship. This distinction can help kids who may be worried that they will get left too.

ARE YOU A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL?

Go to upshurbren.com/IFSTraining to register for The Good Mom/Bad Mom Loop, a 3-hour workshop on 2/27 designed to teach professionals how to integrate Internal Family Systems concepts into maternal mental health services to provide improved support for moms.

LEARN MORE ABOUT US:

ADDITIONAL PODCAST EPISODES YOU MAY LIKE:

🎧 Listen to my podcast episode busting some common misconceptions about divorce with Michelle Dempsey-Multack

🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about parenting with a narcissist

🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about what to do after you and your partner have a big fight in front of your kids

Click here to read the full transcript

Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back to the Securely Attached podcast. We are answering your listener questions and I have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg here, the wise, wise, Dr. Rebecca.

Dr. Rebecca (00:55):

I’m so wise. Oh my gosh, my wisdom.

Dr. Sarah (00:57):

So wise.

Dr. Rebecca (00:58):

It’s just emanating, I dunno how you can tolerate it.

Dr. Sarah (01:01):

I know, it’s wild. Okay, so I have a question from a parent who is in the middle of a divorce. You ready?

Dr. Rebecca (01:13):

Yep.

Dr. Sarah (01:14):

Okay. Hi, Dr. Sarah. I have a four and 7-year-old and I’m in the middle of an amicable divorce right now. My soon to be ex-husband and I are still living together. While we make plans for the future, I have heard about nesting where the kids stay in the family home and my ex and I take turns living there as a way to ease the transition. Do you think this is the best approach for minimizing disruption or are there other ways to help kids feel secure during a separation? That’s a really good question. We haven’t talked about this before in the podcast, so I’m glad that she brought this up.

Dr. Rebecca (01:47):

Have we talked about nesting? Should we start with just sharing with us?

Dr. Sarah (01:50):

Yeah, let’s explain what it is. Do you want to take that one or do you want me to explain it?

Dr. Rebecca (01:56):

Sure, I can explain it. So nesting is when parents are getting divorced and instead of each getting their own place and having the kids potentially go back and forth, they keep their home where the kids live and they take turns in and out of that home. So the kids spend seven nights a week in the same place and the parents trade off who is home with them.

Dr. Sarah (02:31):

And it’s often a temporary sort of transitional period. I mean, it’s not typically permanent, but it is sort of like the first phase for some families during the process of getting divorced.

Dr. Rebecca (02:45):

Right, exactly. And I think it has real pros and cons, which we can talk about, but I think punchline is in some ways our very typical punchline, which is it depends on the kids and family and that wouldn’t it be great if there was a formula for like, oh, you’re getting divorced, here’s the best way to do it. I think what we can agree is the best way to do it. The only thing I would say for certain, the best way to get divorced is amicably if possible. A huge, if possible. There’s obviously situations that’s not possible and this listener already said that they’re amicable. I mean, I think nesting as a concept becomes prohibitive if the divorce is not amicable and might even be worse for kids if you’re trying to pull off amicable nesting when you’re not in that place. And similarly, nesting requires a level of financial privilege, I think usually because it means keeping the home that you’re in and then each partner typically having their own space. Have you ever heard of nesting where the partners then the divorcing partners also share a space that’s not?

Dr. Sarah (04:09):

I think it depends too in terms of custody what the plan is. If it’s 50 50, they’re going to be doing 50 50 joint custody. I think it’s really difficult to do that if you don’t have a physical space for both of the parents that’s separate. If there’s a smaller amount of custody, like let’s say one parent’s only going to have 30% of the time or even less, then the parent who’s the vast majority, they pretty much live in that house and then it’s easier for them to find a few days a week at another place. Maybe they’re going to stay at their parents or maybe they’re going to stay with friends every once in a while and then the other parent has an apartment or another home.

(05:03):

I think again, the thing about nesting is there’s a lot of different ways to do it. There’s also a lot of logistics, and it can be to your point of it, like you kind of need to have an amicable divorce and some financial resources to do this, but you also really need to be, the stress of the parents has to be at a manageable level. And I recognize that when you’re getting divorced, that might not always be available. But the, it’s interesting, this parent is asking what’s the best approach for minimizing disruption, but she also says, what’s the best way to help kids feel secure during a separation? And I would argue those are two very different things. Yes, they feed into another, like a highly disruptive experience is going to impact the security the kids are feeling during the separation, but there might also be circumstances where the kid’s routine is disrupted and we can still help them to feel secure.

(06:01):

So it’s not guaranteed disruption doesn’t automatically mean that this could interrupt the sense of security that they feel. It can be a variable that you want to keep an eye on, but I think there are other variables that could be more impactful of the security. So for example, if you are going to be highly stressed about making this work, if the logistics of nesting are so stressful for the parents, that might actually take such a toll on the parents’ mental health and wellness and bandwidth that they have less bandwidth for helping the children really process all the things that are happening in this transition. And so I would say you need financial resources, but you also need emotional resources to be able to make this work because you have to be able to stay regulated and you have to be able to have the bandwidth for helping your children process the separation and divorce and just minimizing how the kids move in and out of the space isn’t the only piece to that.

Dr. Rebecca (07:05):

Yeah, I mean it’s always tricky with separation and divorce because parents who are divorcing will say, and they will mean sincerely that their number one concern is the stability and health of the kids. And yet we all know that the stability and health of the kids trickles down quite directly from the stability and health of the parents. And so if a parent is going to feel much, much safer and more secure and calm and peaceful knowing that they are in their own space that their ex-partner is not going to inhabit, then that’s an important trade off when it comes to, okay, in that case maybe that takes precedence over the kids not having to come and go or You know what I was going to say? It’s just these are equations that are going to differ family by family.

Dr. Sarah (08:07):

Know thyself. How much control do you need over this? Because if it’s going to stress you out to have to be yourself moving back and forth or having less control over, you always have to lose a little control when you share custody and separate because your children will be with someone else and you do not have control over that. But I will say if you can reduce the amount of things that are going to be really overwhelming for you as the parent, that’s really important to consider. So let’s just say for example, you’ve done that calculation and you’ve decided I can handle it, we can handle it financially and we really want to, we can separate our own needs out of this equation and really look at what is best for the kids. The pros to nesting is that the kids don’t have to transition as much. There’s a lot more stability for them in their day-to-day life. They go to sleep in the same bed every night, their world gets shaken up a little bit less, less, not at all. And we also want to remember that it’s still a huge transition for them and they have to adapt to a new…

Dr. Rebecca (09:16):

And it’s still mportant to name it. I’ve seen not that many, but I’ve seen enough clients where they’re like, oh, we can do this. And the kids won’t even notice.

Dr. Sarah (09:26):

Yeah, don’t nest. What’s that word?

Dr. Rebecca (09:30):

No covert nests.

Dr. Sarah (09:31):

Yeah, no covert nesting. You have to talk about this.

Dr. Rebecca (09:37):

I really have seen parents do that where it’s like, well, we were trading off putting the kid to bed anyway and there were nights that mom wasn’t home because of work anyway. And there were times, so it’s kind like we could just sort of slowly start doing and it’s like, oh gosh, no. The most important thing is that you’re open and honest and transparent with your kids in developmentally appropriate ways. And one of them is naming for your kids that this nesting arrangement is going to start to happen and here’s what it’s going to look like.

Dr. Sarah (10:08):

And that the separation and the divorce is going to happen. And talking to your kids about what that means.

Dr. Rebecca (10:15):

Of course, where the nesting is coming from, of course.

Dr. Sarah (10:19):

And it’s hard, it’s really hard to have these conversations. But talking to this point, this mom specifically says, are there other ways to help kids feel secure during a separation? And I would say processing this in a way that’s developmentally appropriate and helping them know that you know that it’s not easy and giving them a lot of capacity to narrate what’s happening. Really filling in the blanks, really helping them understand the story of this change. Helping them feel really over anticipating their tendency to fill in the blanks in a way that holds their own responsibility. Getting ahead of any internal narratives your kids might have about I caused this. This is something I did. That magical thinking that little kids do. We want to be so crystal clear out loud for them. Nothing. There’s nothing that you did or could ever do that would make this happen. This is simply because this has to do with me and dad or me and your other parent, whatever. You have to say to them, you did nothing wrong and that’s not why this is happening. Even if your kid isn’t asking those questions.

Dr. Rebecca (11:49):

Of course. And I always recommend also that parents draw a distinction, the kinds of things that can happen in grownup relationships versus the kind of things that can happen in parent kid relationships. So grownup relationships can change and the love between grownups can change and the love between parents and kids never changes. And there is no example of a parent getting divorced from a kid because I think when parents speak in very vague language like, well, love can change, or when two people love each other, sometimes they decide that they need space. Kids can, again, because kids are egocentric, they internalize that, well, what does all this mean for my relationship with my parents? If dad can leave mom, maybe dad can leave me. And again, there are some horrific divorce stories, but if we’re going on the template that this is an amicable divorce, then I think it’s really important to draw that distinction. And ideally, I would also say for these conversations to happen with both parents and for kids to be able to see that both parents are there and having this conversation with ’em.

Dr. Sarah (13:01):

Yeah, I mean I recognize that’s not always available in less amicable situations, but if you are amicably divorcing, if you can have these conversations as a unit so that your children can feel that true power of that secure base as this unifying force, you’re modeling not just saying, Hey, we both have, you both got you. We both understand that this could be hard and we’re here for you. That show of unity can be very containing and minimize that sense of disruption and insecurity that can come from divorce. And so that doesn’t mean you always have to show up as a unit, but when you’re initially having these, you’re helping them understand what’s going to happen. That to do it together I think could be really powerful.

Dr. Rebecca (14:03):

I agree. Also, I think one of the ways that kids can feel most secure is if parents kind of call in other supports. So if you are close with grandma or an aunt or uncle or a best friend just to allow kids to have strong relationships with those people during this time, people that they may be able to share in a way they don’t want to share with mom or dad or mom or mom or dad or dad, that this is hard for them or that they’re mad about it. Also telling teachers, I’ve had a lot of parents ask me whether they think school should be told, and almost uniformly my answer is yes. I think teachers are the people who see kids during the day and they are the ones who can sort of monitor if there are any emotional changes that seem to be happening or social changes. And so I think again, the idea, when I think of the one thing I already said for it to be amicable is the one thing. The second thing would be can we turn this into a, can we rally all the supports? Can we get the whole system? Can we get the whole system on board to support this kid? Because sometimes even the most amicable, most capable parents in a situation like this can’t do it all themselves. And so I think that’s a really important piece too.

Dr. Sarah (15:28):

And I think that those supports can be family, friends, school. They also appropriately can be mental health supports. I think it is helpful. It’s not always critical, but I think it’s not certainly not going to hurt and it is quite common for kids to spend some time with a therapist to help them process this. It could be short term, it could be a briefing, but it could also be longer term so that they have some extra sort of anchoring throughout the process. Having that relationship with a therapist that doesn’t change as a lot of these other things in their life might be changing, can be very anchoring during a time of upheaval where they can talk to someone who really is able to help them truly process it, put it into a narrative, help them make sense of it, help them depersonalize things and build perspective on things and help them develop coping strategies for things that is not coming from the parents.

(16:31):

Because it is really hard, even if both parents are quite skillful at this and are both approaching this in a super healthy, appropriate way, especially perhaps if maybe one parent isn’t especially then I think it’s even more so important that the child has some place that they can process that that’s not either parent because it can be really hard for a child to feel as though if they have negative feelings about this divorce, they often don’t feel like they can bring it up to either parent because they want to protect their parents and that’s very normal and understandable and also really important that they don’t have to, and they have a place where they can really process this that’s separate from kicking up that need or wish to protect their parents from their feelings.

Dr. Rebecca (17:20):

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I think all of that is really key.

Dr. Sarah (17:26):

Yeah, I mean, I’m biased, but I do believe in therapy.

Dr. Rebecca (17:30):

You are so transparent. No, look, I keep trying to stay away from words like always because sure, there’s some exceptions somewhere, but for the most part I always recommend if it’s feasible and financially doable and not a logistical nightmare and all the rest that kids whose parents are going through a divorce have access to a therapist.

Dr. Sarah (17:58):

And if it’s not feasible for whatever reason, leveraging school counselors and other resources that are available to children, hence the reason why you want to bring the school in because not all schools, but very many have a counseling program in the school, so that is also a resource.

Dr. Rebecca (18:17):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (18:18):

Yeah. Well, I wish good luck to this family. I really do. I’m sending you lots of love and best wishes because it is hard and you are thinking about this stuff and it is good that you’re asking these questions. It’s good that you are thinking about how to protect and support your kids’ attachment and sense of security minimizing disruptions. I also really recommend asking those same questions of yourself because that is going to be really important. What works best for you because your needs being cared for and really met are going to be just as much of a predictor of how well your kids will be able to navigate this experience as whether or not you choose to nest or there’s lots of different ways to do this. Right?

Dr. Rebecca (19:04):

Absolutely, a hundred percent. Good luck.

Dr. Sarah (19:07):

Yeah, good luck and thanks for writing in and we’ll talk to you all soon.

Dr. Rebecca (19:12):

So long.

Dr. Sarah (19:14):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.

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And I’m so glad you’re here!

I’m a licensed clinical psychologist and mom of two.

I love helping parents understand the building blocks of child development and how secure relationships form and thrive. Because when parents find their inner confidence, they can respond to any parenting problem that comes along and raise kids who are healthy, resilient, and kind.

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