322. Navigating divorce or separation through a family systems approach: Preventative steps to reduce the risk of insecure attachment with Una Archer

Una (00:00):

It could be helpful to compare it to when we drop our children off at nursery or school, we are passing them to a different pair of hands. And obviously when we pass them to their other parent, there can be a whole bunch of other emotions. But in a nutshell, it’s kind of the same.

Dr. Sarah (00:26):

All parents want their children to feel safe, secure, and truly seen. And when your family is undergoing a major transition like separation or divorce, it’s easy to feel the weight and pressure to do it perfectly. Joining me today to unpack how we can truly support our children through these changes, not by following generic advice, but by tuning into what each unique child actually needs is Una Archer. Una is trained in attachment theory, systemic practice with families and trauma therapy. She’s been in private practice since 2014 working with individuals, couples, children, and families. In our conversation, we explore why there’s no one size fits all approach to separation even among siblings. We talk about what the circle of security framework looks like in practice and the three core emotional needs that help children feel secure even when family life is shifting. We also talk about how to separate your own trauma and fears from your child’s experience so you can truly see them, why it’s okay, and even healthy to allow more time and slowness in these transitions and how rupture and repair can strengthen your relationship rather than damage it. If you are feeling unsure of how your separation or divorce might impact your kids, or you’re struggling to figure out what’s really most important for them right now, this episode will help you step back, slow down, and find clarity rooted in connection and compassion.

(01:59):

Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights so you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. This is Securely Attached.

(02:28):

Hello, welcome back to the Securely Attached podcast. We have Una Archer with us today. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Una (02:40):

Oh, thanks for having me, Sarah. It’s such a pleasure to be here with you and your listeners.

Dr. Sarah (02:46):

I’m so thrilled that we are having this conversation because we’re going to be talking about something that’s really tough. It’s a really tough topic and I think that the way that you approach it can be very grounding and give a lot of hope, and so that feels like an optimistic conversation for us to be having. So I’m excited about that.

Una (03:13):

How you summarize it, grounding and hope those two words just really resonates with me. So I’m excited about our conversation. We’re going to have.

Dr. Sarah (03:24):

Thanks. Yeah, no, I think the fact that you, and I’ll let you orient people to your core kind of foundational approaches, what informs the way you approach families when you’re working with families who are separating or divorcing or navigating life after a divorce? How can we explain to families what your North Star is when you’re working with a new family?

Una (03:53):

My North Star is understanding each unique child and their needs instead of going for generic advice. This is good post-separation parenting practice, looking at the child and being guided by the child. And I use circle of security parenting framework that gives us a map, like a general idea of what children need in terms of attachment, but instead of it being a prescriptive approach, it’s more like a framework that guides our thinking that really helps us narrow down when we think about each specific child. And it can be if there are two or three or four children in the family, they might need different things.

Dr. Sarah (04:48):

Yeah, yeah. I think that’s so important. I think parents get sort of, understandably, it’s a really hard thing to do as a parent to go through a transition like this, but I think if you have, a lot of parents are really, they’ll put off divorce because they’re afraid of what it’s going to do for their children. But I think there are a lot of ways in which how you do something is kind of more important than what you do, whether or not you divorce. I think it’s not, there’s so much research that says that how you do any sort of challenging transition is going to matter so much more or be more influential on the outcome than whether or not you do the thing.

Una (05:37):

Yes, yes. Interestingly, what you say, a lot of parents, or I dunno, parents might be putting divorce off because of the children, but some parents might find that if they are in an unhappy marriage trying to figure out the relationship, it is taking up so much of their emotional mental energy, so much of their time, even their physical health and energy. And after divorce, when that is not so much on the agenda anymore, they finally find that they can focus on the children.

Dr. Sarah (06:15):

It’s interesting. Well, maybe you could explain a little bit about Circle security and the theory behind it and how that plays out and how you use it as a framework that you then individualize for the families that you work with.

Una (06:32):

Yeah, so Circle of Security is based on over 60 years of attachment research and what the Circle of Security international team did, they looked at that research and they created a graphic that is very relatable. What I love about it is you can look at it and you can understand it straight away, but at the same time, there’s so much depth to it. I’ve been working with it for over 10 years now, and I’m constantly learning. The graphic is very simple, the basic version of it, imagine if there is a pair of hands on the left side and then there’s circle attached to the pair of hands. It symbolizes three key emotional needs that children have when it comes to their emotional security. The pair of hands symbolizes secure base and safe haven. Interestingly, it’s not necessarily, usually it’s mom and dad, extended family members, teachers, coaches, but it’s not so much about the bloodline relationships, it’s more about the relationship that person invested in and the relationship that they have built in.

(07:49):

So it’s not automatic that a child would see their mom or dad as a pair of hands. Most of the time they do. And then the top of the circle is when children feel connected with their secure base and safe haven, when they’re feeling safe, grounded, their emotional cup is full. What they want to do, they want to go out and explore. And what they need from us at that point is to create a safe environment for that exploration to feel our support. And they explore, explore, explore. And at a certain time there comes a moment where they have used up their emotional, what’s in their emotional cup. They might be overwhelmed, scared, tired, confused. And then there is a transition point where they had enough of exploring and they want to come back to reconnect with their secure base. So that’s the bottom of the circle.

(08:52):

And that’s when they need comfort. They need protection, need help with organizing their experience, their feelings. And as you listen to this and think about your child, I’m pretty sure that you can say, oh yeah, I’ve seen that in my child. They do that. They go out, they come back, they go out, they come back and with each circle, each time we support their exploration date, when they’re going out to explore each time, we’ll welcome them in and provide that comfort when they’re at the bottom of the circle, we strengthen that connection. We strengthen our security, security of our relationship.

Dr. Sarah (09:30):

I love that. That’s such a beautiful visual of this sort of attachment relationship playing out in real time. And I imagine this is a model that works. It’s not unique to divorce, right? This is just about child development and attachment science. But when you are working with families who are divorcing, what are some of the fears that you see parents have about the integrity of this circle? I know there’s a lot of anxiety that parents have that that circle’s going to get broken in some way.

Una (10:09):

I think that the common fears are that they have let their children down, that the separation will impact their children in some profound way that will last a lifetime. Maybe that how will children feel about relationships in general? And I think that what having the visual of the circle helps parents to do is to focus on in the moment how they can still create that security. Because what I love about cycle of security is it’s very much in the moment, how can I show up as a secure base for my child right now in this moment? And where are they on the circle? Are they coming in for comfort? How can I be there for them? How can I catch them at the bottom of the circle or are they going off to explore and how can I support that exploration? And also what I sometimes see is that parents can have an idea of what’s the best way to support their children.

(11:24):

So some parents might think, oh, we need to go on adventures, we need to do lots of fun stuff. And they fill their agenda with activities and one after another, after another after another. And at the end they both feel exhausted and they actually don’t feel that connected because you need both. You need that rhythm of going and coming back, going and coming back. And another parent might think, oh, we need to sit and talk and talk and talk and connect. But yeah, children that, but they also need to just go out about their lives and explore and do things that they’re interested in. So I think it helps parents to maybe pause their worries a little bit and arrive into the moment and think, look at their child and think, okay, what’s happening? How can I be present with that?

Dr. Sarah (12:17):

Yes, yes. That’s so orienting, right, that visual too. I think when we’re feeling overwhelmed, when we’re feeling anxious or scared or sad and we’re grieving and we’re all the things, we lose our kind of critical thinking. We go into our own fight or flight and we get less organized and we get more scattered and we get more reactive. But I think this super simple idea of like, okay, this is just a simple cycle to come back to. Coming back to this, how do I help my child feel safe enough to move through this cycle? They are doing the moving. We are just holding space for the movement. We’re allowing them to explore and we’re receiving them when they come back with presence. We are actually, oh gosh, the image that comes to mind, which I didn’t come up with, but a mentor of mine describes this as a bee and a flower. And I think as parents sometimes we think we need to be the bee and we zip around our children over and over and over again versus like, no, no, we’re the flower and we just let them come and go and come and go and we stay in the center. And that allows them to come around us, but we don’t have to do as much work as I think we think we have to do, which goes stinks, I think, to the fear of when we’re divorcing.

(13:46):

Or like, oh my gosh, the family system is breaking apart and so this won’t be possible anymore. But I also think that the circle of security is, it’s so helpful to think about it, and this is an individual relationship between you and your child that’s not going anywhere. No matter what’s happening with the nuclear families, the form that it’s taking in this moment, your relationship with them and your circle of security with them, those hands, they’re your hands. They don’t have to be all of the hands in a child’s life at once. It’s just, I guess they have infinite numbers of circles they can have, but each hand is the one attachment figure at a time.

Una (14:35):

Yeah. Yeah. I love that visual of the flower and the be. Yeah, because going through divorce is scary, is overwhelming. And from that fight to flight place, we might end up feeling that I have to do more. I have to constantly be doing something. And I’m also talking from my own experience and I’m just wondering if it makes it harder for children then to actually find where that flower is. And if can say, okay, I’m the flower, I can relax into it and I can’t do less. And actually by me doing less, then there’s this more space to be present to connect.

Dr. Sarah (15:20):

And then we are more able to catch the moments when they do need to come back to us because tracking them, we’re orienting to them rather than orienting to our own worry or fear or agenda or things I have to do for them. But no, I’m watching them. I’m looking, are they moving outward? And if they’re moving outward on the circle, I step back to give them space to do that. If they’re moving towards me on the circle, I open myself up and orient myself to them and I receive them, I’m there to receive them. But we’re still standing still. It is less work work. It’s more work in some ways you have to be more consciously present and attending to the cues of your child, but there’s a little bit more stillness for us.

Una (16:27):

Yeah, it’s different.

Dr. Sarah (16:33):

So, when you’re working with families who are, I’m assuming people go to you, they have an intentionality about supporting their child. I mean obviously it’s a priority for them. A lot of parents might be so overwhelmed by the divorce proceedings that that’s sure on their mind, but they’re like, that’s not the first fire that needs to get put out. But if people are kind to you, they’re clearly saying, my intention for this. I want to orient this process around supporting my child. What does your process look like when you’re starting out with a family?

Una (17:18):

So usually we start what’s called the circle security parenting interview. And that’s an in-depth look in the circle. Each circle is unique and each parent feels more comfortable at some parts of the circle and other parts require more effort. So that’s a really good starting point to know what are the strengths we can lean into and what are the challenges that could be helpful to focus. And then just as we go through circle security parenting course, it’s a constant reminder about what matters most to children. How because going through divorce can just feel so noisy. Our own wounds from the past come up, this myriads of logistical things we need to organize worries about the future. All of that can drown out that being still flower and noticing the children. And it’s a process of just coming back to it over and over. And of course we focus on different aspects of the circle. We layer, we go deeper and deeper. But in a nutshell, that’s the process.

(18:39):

How am I? Just to tell a little bit more about it is really thinking about how am I being as hands? How am I supporting my child’s exploration? How do I welcome them in for comfort? Recognizing when there’s a term in psycho security called shark music, and that’s noticing when I get triggered by certain needs. And then really learning to pause. And we don’t have to do it perfectly, but even if we can do it more often, it makes a difference for the relationship to pause When I feel triggered, am I going to be driven by the trigger or am I going to sit with a discomfort and still meet my child’s need? And then we talk about rupture and repair. And I think this is such an important conversation, especially in the context of the divorce, because divorce is a huge rupture that might not be repaired and maybe something that led to the divorce where this continuous smaller ruptures that were not repaired and recognizing that rupture is part of the relationship and rupture is part of the relationship with our children. And it’ll happen. And I think a lot of us, what we’ve learned growing up is that ruptures happen and then we just carry on as if it didn’t happen.

(20:15):

But through circle of security, what we learn is that if we acknowledge the rupture, if we talk about it, if we repair it, it does make relationships stronger. It does bring us closer. And so that’s the process in a nutshell. And then it’s a matter of just repeating it over and over again because we change, our children grow how they show up their needs at the top of the circle at the bottom, the circle changes and it’s just never ending exploration of how do we dance with it.

Dr. Sarah (20:56):

And when you’re finding like, okay, when a family is divorcing, there is a fundamental by definition breaking apart of the family system. But I imagine there are ways that families can continue to, it’s like there’s layers. The parent relationship is definitely going to change. And there are of course certain situations where families are able to continue to co-parent in a way that a lot of stuff stays the same.

(21:35):

And we could talk a little bit about that scenario. I think that’s kind of where a lot of people want to go. That’s the kind of not all right. There’s also, I imagine a lot of situations where it’s like the best thing for that family system is for there to be two really distinct family systems now because that’s actually what’s going to be the healthiest path going forward. I say this a lot when I work with families who are divorcing or in a lot of different types of transitional situations. It’s like families come in all shapes and sizes and there isn’t one right shape or size. And if we deviate from it, we’re always going to be trying to compensate for that deviation. It’s really like, no, what is the best and most healthy way for your family system to take shape? And then how do we then lean into that in the best way? But it’s still a family system. Once you have a family, you’re a family system because the kids just kind of like they’re the glue in that and they’re not going anywhere. So yeah. I’m just curious what your thoughts are on what you’ve seen to be helpful for families in wrapping their minds around that yes, there’s going to be some things that are going to completely change and there are going to be some things that have to stay the same and they might have a different package.

Una (23:07):

I agree so much with what you’re saying that there isn’t one right thing and it’s really important for each parent to tune into what’s right for them. And because we know from attachment research that one of the main factors influencing children’s emotional security is parents’ emotional security. And for some parents, they will feel more safe and are co-parenting relationship feeling that there is that connection and they’re feeling held by the other parent. As a co-parent, often it takes years to get to that place. Some parents will feel safer where there is just very clear boundaries and very little contact. And also it can change over time. Maybe first year, two years after separation, you do need more space while you working through your own things and just managing the logistics. Maybe after a few years you feel that, okay, now I have this more scope, I have more capacity to communicate more with that person who’s no longer my romantic partner. Often also, it can be the opposite just after separation we can’t and it works well, but then a new partner might come into picture and then that becomes more difficult. So as you say, there’s just no one size fits all and how we said we’re tuning to our children all of the time. I guess it’s important to attune to ourselves as well. As we change, as the situation changes, what is comfortable for me? How do they feel safest?

Dr. Sarah (25:03):

What have you found helps parents connect to that sense of safety? When someone comes to you and they are feeling very unsafe, very out of control, very afraid whether those fears are realistic or catastrophic and maybe not so realistic, how do you help them orient to a more of a felt sense of safety so that they can start to move forward with more capacity?

Una (25:39):

Yeah, that is such a good question and I think it’s really hard because when you in that place where you don’t feel safe, it’s really hard to imagine where you’re heading or what it would feel like to feel safer. And you can only experience that once you’ve got there.

(26:03):

So I would say one of the things that can be really helpful is to connect with people that you do feel safe, family, friends, a team of professionals, because as you say, one family structure is changing. We might losing connection with certain family members or friends. I think it’s important to replace that and still have a village around you that holds you. Another thing that can support that sense of safety is looking after your nervous system. Things like exercise, sleep, nutrition, and just keep checking in and kind of developing that interception where I’m in noticing when I’m in a fight or flight state and what do I need to do to look after my body? Do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to have a bath? Do I need to call a friend? Another thing is routines. If I go to the gym every morning or if I have a cup of tea every morning, I can trust that this thing will be there and bit by bit it can because her every day can be different. But if there’s this anchor in my day that I can come back to each day and I trust that it’ll be there, it can strengthen our sense of security, spiritual practice as well, connecting with something bigger or I would put connecting with nature in a kind of similar category.

(27:51):

I used to remember, I used to go and walk in the woods every day and just, okay, the woods, they’re always there, they’re doing their own thing. And what would seem to me like this huge end of the world situation, I would just feel like it would get more contained. So yeah, that’s just a couple of ideas. And one thing that I would like to add is giving yourself more time because especially when we are in that maybe traumatized fight or fight state, we can put so much pressure on ourselves to get everything organized as quickly as possible. Find the house, organize the admin, create new routines, do up the house. But really if we give ourselves more time, we have more pockets to just breathe, to just be present with ourselves and what we need and what our children need.

Dr. Sarah (28:57):

Yeah, it’s so interesting. I think it’s so critical that the focus be on parental health and safety. I imagine parents who are working through divorce who are very focused on supporting their kids’ sense of safety and routine and predictability and attachment, security and all that stuff, that can be a byproduct or can be derailed very much depending on how well we can feel our own groundedness, like we were saying, you can change the shape and form of your family system, but the family system does not go away. And our children are a part of it. I always try to describe the family system as a web. Everybody in the family is attached to that web. If you pull one thread, the whole thing moves. And so just like we want to support our kids’ health and wellness in these transitional, tough, tough moments, if we super focus on the child and we don’t think about what we need, we’re trying to pull one thread of a web and don’t realize that the whole thing has to move. If we orient ourselves to what do I need? How do I address the things that are feeling unsteady for me right now? How do I get more supports? How do I take care of my nervous system, which I think is so important and also unique to every person, but it’s worth paying attention to stay regulated, get out of fight or flight when I notice I’m in it. It’s going to go a long way to helping your kid develop and maintain a secure attachment system to you within the larger family system. You’re modeling it for your ex-partner, right? It starts with our own kind of brain and body.

Una (31:03):

Yeah, I love how you put it. Focus on yourself first and then as a ripple effect, you will have a more secure relationship with your child. And then I would add then, as a ripple effect, you will also have a better co-parenting relationship as a third point of focus. I notice that often as parents focus on themselves and on their parenting, the co-parenting improves as well.

Dr. Sarah (31:42):

Hey, I just wanted to pause for a moment because if you’re listening to this conversation about separation and divorce, there’s a good chance you or someone might be in the middle of something similar. At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer a virtual weekly support group for women navigating divorce. This group is designed to help you feel less alone process feelings like grief and anger that often come up and start to rebuild a sense of identity and stability. In the midst of so much change, it can be incredibly hard to hold space for your own pain while also trying to show up for your kids. And you don’t have to do it all on your own. In this small group, you’ll have the opportunity to share openly, gain perspective, and learn practical tools to help you move forward, even if life feels messy, chaotic, and uncertain. To learn more about the group or to see if it might be a good fit for you or someone you know can go to the episode description wherever you’re streaming this episode to get a link or just visit us at upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E N.com, where you can learn more about the group or schedule a free consultation call to talk through your specific situation and get personalized recommendations for support. Alright, let’s get back to the conversation.

(33:04):

What are the places that you see the most improvement on families? When you see a parent show up with more of their own sort of sense of safety, the parents taking care of themselves in a way that they’re regulated, they’re oriented to their child because they have the bandwidth. What do you see shift?

Una (33:28):

I think the main thing is when a parent is in that place, they’re less likely to engage in a ping pong with the other parent. This either a harmonious exchange or an argument or something like that. You’re a bit able to just say, you know what? I’m just going to let it be. And so often we can, and then it’s a little bit like a ping pong game. We just catch the ball and it’s like, I’m just not doing this anymore. And then it gives the other parents space to process, well, not all of the time, but hopefully what they need to. And also it takes time, but then the other parent, they kind of observe that and they can get curious, oh, it’s interesting, what are they doing over there? And it can be inspiring as well too, to take that approach.

Dr. Sarah (34:36):

Yeah, it’s also so much more empowering if you keep trying to control the other person or control a situation, control your child, control the environment in ways that we don’t really have control. That’s just energetic output that it’s like a hole in the bucket, right? It does not. It’s just a leak. And so we feel like we’re doing tons of work and just feel depleted as a result of all that work, but we’re not actually having much to show for it. And so that sense of impotence, that sense of I’m putting in all this work and I feel so powerless to make anything move, that is a dangerous trap to get stuck in when you’re, and I imagine it’s very common in divorce, usually it’s a lot out of our control.

Una (35:30):

I think it’s so understandable because emotional separation takes time and we can say, okay, officially we’re separated, but we have so many habits of doing things together, talking about things, deciding things together. And it can also be really hard to let go of the other person. And so there’s so many reasons why we can get so caught into those places emotionally. But then as you say, when we step back and we focus on ourselves, when we focus on our children, it’s not just we benefit and our children benefit, but as a side effect, we are processing the emotional separation of the end of the relationship as well. And as we move along that path, which is not easy and not linear, but the further we move, the more we can engage with their other parent. I dunno how to put it in a clean way just as I’m a parent and you’re a parent and this, no, not like a hundred percent. There no other agendas there, but you know what I mean.

Dr. Sarah (36:52):

Right? Yeah. Clean. I get what you’re saying. Simple. We are disentangling ourselves from all of these sort of other roles that have the complexities of our romantic relationship create tons of roles, not just like two people who are in a relationship, but all the layers, all the codependent pieces of our relationship, all of the avoidant pieces of our relationship, all of the relationships we have with the extended family of the other. There’s a million things we have to disentangle that we might have feelings about that might feel unfinished, that might feel traumatizing even, and that we have to grieve. We’re doing all of this while trying to then have a healthy relationship with our child and allow hopefully our child to have a healthy relationship with their other parent. And that’s hard. So the more, how do you help people disentangle slowly over time probably so that they can, how do they help? I feel like they’re getting to that aha moment of like, oh, this isn’t part of my relationship anymore. I am not responsible for this anymore, and I can just let go of that piece, feel the tendril unwrapping itself from around me.

Una (38:19):

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that focus on yourself as a secure base and then on meeting your child’s needs helps to get off the autopilot of how you’ve been doing things in the past. Often as we go through separation, part of that we’re also at least a certain level redefining our relationship with our children, especially for parents who may were not as involved in parenting, maybe why the other parent made most of the decisions. And so then that questioning and process of discovery can help us move along. Redefining those other layers as well that you were just talking about.

Dr. Sarah (39:13):

Yeah, that’s a really good point. It’s typical that there’s sort of a primary parent, whether we like it or not, that just sort of evolves in these roles, in these family systems. I imagine realistically more often than not, it’s the mother in a heterosexual marriage, although I think that the fathers also can be that default parent a lot of the times.

(39:41):

And when there’s a shift from we parent in this unit, even if it’s not a fully equal unit, and healthy relationships also have that imbalance, it’s not like that’s a reason that this is happening a product of life. But then when you’re building out and creating two units now two whole and separate units, there’s also a reorienting of the role because now when you are parenting that child without the other person, you might be co-parenting as an ethos, but you’ve got them at your house this weekend. You’ve got to be all of it. Now. I think I can feel really overwhelming, but it can also be such an opportunity to reset. And what are some of, if a parent is finding themselves in this situation, they really want to challenge and process feelings of guilt or feeling of pressure or feeling of fear. The stakes are really high. I don’t want to mess this up, or I have no idea where to start. Or there is rupture and we do have repair work to do. Where was a good starting point for that parent?

Una (40:56):

What comes to me is a visual. And when you say from the place, we just want to throw everything at it. But if you imagine your child like a plant in the garden, there’s so many influences that contribute to that plant thriving. And if I stood there with the hose all day pouring water on it, it wouldn’t benefit that plant. What the plant need is the right amount of water consistently over time. And then it can thrive. And what I love about the circle is that those three simple questions, how am I showing up with their hands? How can I welcome them in for comfort? How can I support their exploration? Can help you find out what it is that they need and give them that one piece that comes up. And another thing that can be really tricky is that as we go through separation, we can lose that sense of trust in ourselves, our decisions. But as much as possible, I invite encourage parents to trust their own wisdom, their intuition.

(42:22):

If you sit with those questions, something will bubble up. It’ll be something really simple that in that oh one place, you might think, oh, I have to do this big complicated thing. But think about that, just the right amount of water. It can be just take your kid to the park or sit down and read a book together in the evening to welcome them back in. And the comfort to have that more downtime connection time. Or if you’re really stressing out about some paperwork, make sure you get that done when your child is with the parents so that it’s not weighing on you and kind of jarring your nervous system. So those small steps over time can strengthen that security. So I guess we coming back again to that idea of just giving yourself time and trusting your process.

Dr. Sarah (43:24):

Yeah. I wonder too, as we’re talking, I’m picturing the circle of security, and I think it is important on some levels to look at it as this is just between me and my child.

(43:35):

That’s what I can control, and that’s what I have. That’s where I have agency and that’s it. But also there is a bit of a, I pass my circle off to the other parents’ circle, and I think imagine that the most healthy scenario is that both parents are working on creating this safe haven for their kids. Obviously I recognize that sometimes that’s not happening on both sides, but if both parents are capable and interested in trying to do that work, there’s almost like a figure eight. I wonder that kind of ends up happening with this co-parenting. Just understanding what your needs are versus what your child’s needs are in the moment. You might be, it might be that time where, okay, my schedule’s ending and they’re going to be going to their other parents’ house now and everything. My body is like, I want to go back to the hands and to the comfort and the coming together, but I also know that my child is whether they want to or they don’t want to, they’re moving kind of into this exploration. They’re moving out, or at least their circumstances are requiring them to. And it’s like, how do you navigate that piece with families? Do we want to, sometimes we need to help part of that, letting them go to the outside of the circle means doing something that feels hard for us in that moment, but holding some space, letting them do that exploration, that goodbye, I guess I’m saying make it okay for them to go.

(45:24):

That is part of helping them build that skill of feeling safe enough to explore. There might be times where they don’t want to right now. They want to stay with you. They want the comfort. And so there’s that balancing out of distress tolerance, helping our kids with distress tolerance and our own distress tolerance. And sometimes also inhibiting ourselves when we want to hold them to us when they actually really are ready to go. And we don’t want to dim that because hard for us.

Una (45:58):

Yeah. Yeah. As I was listening to you, I thought that it could be helpful to compare it to when we drop our children off at nursery or school, we are passing them to a different pair of hands, and obviously one, we pass them to their other parent. That can be a whole bunch of other emotions. But in a nutshell, it’s kind of the same. And then our role becomes, how can I support? So once I’ve passed my kids to their other parent, how can I think about it? I’m not the hands for them anymore. So my role becomes how can I support the pair of hands that is holding them now? What information do they need? What sort of things can I say to my children to help them engage, to help them feel safe with their other pair of hands? What sort of ritual can I have around transition times to make it more predictable for them?

Dr. Sarah (47:14):

Yes. I think that is, I love that so much. They are, how do I help this, even if it hurts me somewhat to help this, right? And I have to separate my grief from supporting my kid in living out this transition in a way that eventually feels okay. Yeah. I think my last question is, we’ve talked a lot about parents, which I think is actually the right angle. I think we could spend this whole episode talking about what the kids need, and we would miss the whole point, which is the only way to figure out what the kids need is to figure out how you navigate through this and what you need. But as you are moving through this, what are things that you have encouraged parents? How do you help parents communicate this to the kid so that they understand it in child friendly terms?

Una (48:23):

When you say communicate this, what do you mean?

Dr. Sarah (48:30):

Not communicate the circle of security part explicitly, because kids don’t really need to know that language, but as we are helping support them transition, whether it’s you’re going to your other parents’ house tonight, let’s pack up and get the thing, how do you talk to them about how you understand your role as the parent to help support the exploring and the coming back together? And that’s not going to change and that’s still there and some things are different.

Una (49:10):

Yeah. Yeah. So I think even if you are not talking explicitly about the circle, you can use it to organize your thinking as you talk to your children and you can say, thinking about the top of the circle, you’ll still go to your clubs, you’ll still see your friends, things that, how they will still be able to explore the things that are important to them, that they’re interested and to them. And we’ll still do these things together that we usually do. Talking about the bottom of the circle, how you connect. And also if we are wondering about what our children need, it’s okay to ask them what I interested at the moment, is there anything you need from me right now? And then often children they know and they can tell us, can save us a lot of guesswork.

Dr. Sarah (50:20):

Yeah. Yeah. They really are. I mean, even really young kids can have a way of telling us what they need.

Una (50:27):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (50:29):

If people want to know more about your work or they want to connect with you, where should we send them?

Una (50:39):

Specifically around navigating separation? I have a resource, a free webinar that’s available on demand. It’s called The Separated Parents Guide to Attachment Three steps towards emotional Security, where I go deeper into the hands at top of the circle, the bottom of the circle, and that’s available on my website, helpyourchildthrive.co.uk. So I guess that’s the best resource because as you listen, you can’t come up with those three steps that will be unique to you, to your child, to your situation. They will be simple steps that you can just take straight away after watching the webinar, which is less than an hour long.

Dr. Sarah (51:28):

Amazing. And the way that you work, can you do this as a co-parenting dyad? Can you do this as a solo parent who would benefit from this? And how?

Una (51:44):

In theory, both options are possible In practice, it’s usually each parent focusing on their own relationship because my main priority is that the parent feels safe to explore their own parenting. And it can be a really vulnerable endeavor to take on to look at, okay, which pieces am I happy with? Which are the areas where I want to try something new? And often with someone that you just broke up with, it might just not be the best dynamic to do that. If someone wants to do that together, I’m happy to support that, but I’m just sharing what usually happens.

Dr. Sarah (52:32):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s good to know. I feel like we have a group practice in Westchester, and we do a lot of co-parenting support. And I think sometimes we do get two parents that really want to do almost like family therapy basically, right? As they are going through the separation. But a lot of people are like, well, my partner is never going to do that, or My ex partner is never going to do that with me, so I guess I can’t do this then. And I just think it’s so important that most, actually, it’s one parent who’s like, see what’s happening, and I don’t take some control of what I have control over and do something helpful, but I don’t want parents to feel like, I guess I can’t, if I don’t have the other parent on board. You can do this solo and it really can be impactful. I think

Una (53:34):

It really, really can. And what I love, what sometimes happens is one parent does the work and then the other parent gets inspired and then they do their own work. I think that’s the best.

Dr. Sarah (53:48):

Yeah, it really is. Talk about showing you that you really do have control power to make right in giving up the need to control the other person and doing the work for yourself actually results in the other person coming around. It’s like you got where you were trying to go, but you had to give up to it to let it happen.

Una (54:13):

Yes, yes. And also, if it doesn’t happen, you still have the fruits of your own work to benefit you and your child.

Dr. Sarah (54:26):

Yes. So it’s worth it. Thank you so much, una. This is so nice talking with you. I love the way that you think about this stuff, and so it is, I think we succeeded on our hope and grounding efforts today in this conversation. So thank you.

Una (54:46):

Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me and for this opportunity to share how attachment can help navigate this really difficult time.

Dr. Sarah (54:57):

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