358. Navigating high-conflict divorce while prioritizing your own needs and attachment relationships with Karen McMahon

Karen (00:00):

How do you feel empowered going through a divorce? When everything is out of your control, you feel empowered by focusing on the one thing within your control, which is you.

Dr. Sarah (01:03):

Divorce is never easy, but when one parent struggles with being very high conflict, the stress can feel really overwhelming for both adults and kids. In those moments, it’s easy to feel powerless, caught in a cycle of chaos that you can’t control. My guest today, Karen McMahon knows this firsthand. After navigating her own high conflict divorce, she not only rebuilt her life, but turned that experience into a mission helping other parents move through divorce with clarity, resilience, and even grace. Karen is the founder of Journey Beyond Divorce and host of one of the top divorce podcasts in the country. She and her team coach parents through the emotional, logistical and relational landmines of separation, especially when conflict runs high. In this conversation we’ll explore what really defines a high conflict parent, how to protect your children from the emotional fallout and practical strategies for setting boundaries, staying grounded, and finding strength in the midst of turmoil.

(02:04):

Hello, welcome to Securely Attached. Karen McMahon. Thank you so much for being here.

Karen (02:17):

I’m excited about today’s conversation. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Sarah (02:20):

Me too. I really am. Can you start by sharing a bit about your work, supporting parents who are navigating divorce and co-parenting, especially when there’s a really high conflict dynamic involved.

Karen (02:32):

It makes things so much more confusing, and especially as the children. Well, it doesn’t matter what the age the children are. I think that if you are in a high conflict marriage heading toward divorce, one parent has already been judged and criticized and belittled, and in my audience have really lost themselves. I lost myself. And so even the confidence in following their own and how to parent gets shattered. And so here you’re in this super stressful situation, your spouse is reacting. If they’re the high conflict person you triggered, you’re either shutting down or exploding, and then your children are in the midst of it. And so I like to say there’s often emotional grenades being tossed across the room and the children are catching shrapnel. And so a lot of what I do when I work with clients is talk about what’s happening. And you can’t help your children and you can’t change your spouse. All of your powers here. And when you begin to understand coping mechanisms that are and aren’t healthy and how to regulate your own emotional regulation, right, your own system, your nervous system, only then can you support your kids in a really powerful way.

Dr. Sarah (03:56):

Yeah, that’s very empowering. When you think about, and you’ve worked with a lot of different kind of dynamics and people who are working through the divorce, when we say high conflict parent or high conflict partner, what do you mean? What does that, are there particular patterns or behaviors that tend to fall under this label?

Karen (04:17):

Yes. And so the truth is if we’re getting divorced, there’s conflict. And so the question is what’s the difference between conflict and high conflict? And that’s a question I’m asked all of the time. And so I’m going to give a number of different examples. And the first thing is have you ever been able to reconcile anything? Every time a problem comes up, if there’s never any reconciliation, and if your spouse can’t take responsibility for any of their part, if they blame and accuse all of the time, if they have no empathy, when you come to them and you’re like, I’m worried about our child, I’m worried about our marriage. So this lack of empathy, this, it’s not my fault, it’s yours. A lot of times in high conflict there’s both deflection and projection, right? So they deflect. So you say, Hey, look babe, I’m really struggling with this.

(05:13):

And they’re like, you are struggling with this. You did this to me last week and I’m struggling with this. So they deflect and put you on the defensive or they project so they’re not feeling good about themselves. So they tell you what a lousy parent you are. There’s often a situation where something happened and you go back to talk about it and it’s like we were in two different experiences. Your memory and my memory is completely different. All of this leaves people feeling like there’s no ground underneath their feet. This confusion about, and that’s where the self-doubt comes in. There’s a saying, don’t be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

(05:54):

And when we’re in high conflict divorce, many of us high conflict marriages, many of us literally give up our own thoughts because we’ve been so inundated by the other person’s big personality, and they’re really a hundred percent certainty that they’re right and you are wrong. And so all of these things cause you to be really confused, overwhelmed. When I was first starting my divorce, my kids were four and six years old, and I went to the therapist once and they were fighting out in the waiting room and he said, would you like to go out and take care of that? And I shrunk and I said, actually, would you? They don’t even listen to me. And I felt like this big, I’d lost everything.

Dr. Sarah (06:40):

How did you get it back?

Karen (06:43):

Well, for me, finding a 12 step group that said to me, keep your side of the street clean, was probably one of the most powerful experiences I had. So my ex was not a drinker, but the drug was not so big that I thought NA was a good choice. And so I went to Al-Anon. My dad had been an alcoholic, and they talked about serenity, and they talked about keeping your side of the street clean. And it set me on this path to stop trying to change him. And I think that’s the other thing. In high conflict, divorce, the person married to the high conflict personality typically comes from a family of some kind of dysfunction that led to people pleasing codependence, a total lack of understanding boundaries and a fear of disagreement being a fear of conflict. So we see any disagreement as conflict, and so we shy away from it.

(07:45):

So all of those things have us trying to control what’s out of our control. And when I was able to, oh, keep my side of the street clean, don’t be sweeping his, what am I doing? What am I bringing to the table? What are the insecurities? What are the judgments? What’s the unforgiveness? What are all of the tendencies that I bring to the table that have not served this marriage? And that doesn’t mean he hasn’t been displeasing wrong, bad in A, B, C, D, E, F way, but it just means that I can’t control that I wouldn’t be here if I could. We can never control another human being, and that sets us on a path. You said the word earlier. How do you feel empowered going through a divorce when everything is out of your control, you feel empowered by focusing on the one thing within your control, which is you.

Dr. Sarah (08:42):

Yeah. So how did you get into divorce coaching in the way that you do?

Karen (08:50):

My divorce was three and a half years. I was a full-time salesperson. I lost 90% of my income. My children were two and four. My ex told me I was going to lose all of the money and lose all custody. And for some bizarre reason, I believed him and I was scared to death. When I emerged from my divorce in 2006, I remember calling my best friend and saying The last three and a half years was such a living hell. But I look in the mirror and I love the woman who’s looking back at me. And if someone said I had to do it all over again to be here, I would do it on a dime. I had grown so much. I was in therapy. I was in the 12 step program. I didn’t know about coaching or if there was coaching, but I really, and I’m a Christian and I was on my knees praying not for what I wanted, but for God’s will.

(09:46):

For me. I was like, I trust you. Whatever I trust, you’re going to take care of me and the kids. And that was a big piece for me when I surrendered everything that I needed to have happen. And I trusted that if I just focus on myself and I just do the next right thing, that it will unfold in a way that’s good for everybody. And then at the end of it, I was like, I cannot sell ink on paper. I was selling commercial printing and I was like, I can’t sell commercial printing. There’s got to be something more important for me to do in the world. I found coaching. I went to the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching At the time, in 2010, it was the number one coaching institute in the world. It’s about a 400 hour training. And I just immediately knew the minute they said, what’s your niche? I’m like, I was a teenager going through divorce. I just went through a hellacious divorce. Divorce is transition. Coaching is all about transition. That’s what I’m going to do. And I started in 2010 and it has been such a blessing for me to help so many through the process.

Dr. Sarah (10:56):

That’s so amazing. And people aren’t familiar with divorce coaching versus going to a mediator or going to a therapist or maybe even a litigator. What are the differences? Can you talk a little bit about the landscape in this area and how different people help? And then how do you know as a divorcing couple who to be seeking help from?

Karen (11:26):

Right, beautiful question. So everyone who’s entering divorce thinks I have to hire an attorney. And by the way, if that’s you, please only hire a family law attorney, not a generalist. It makes a huge difference. And so we have the attorney and then most will say, I’m emotionally on my ear. I have to hire a therapist, which makes sense. And so you have a skill that I don’t have. You have all of this psychological and mental health understanding, and so therapy’s changed a lot. So I’m going to talk about more standard therapy because a lot of therapists do coaching these days and what have you, but more standard therapy. My description is you need a therapist. And especially if you’re in a high conflict situation, you come from some kind of family dysfunction and we marry the wounds of our mother and father. And so understanding and connecting the dots to how did I grow up and what created my coping mechanisms that haven’t served me as an adult, I talk about that, but momentarily it’s like, have you been in therapy?

(12:30):

Can we connect the dots? That’s where you connect the dots with your therapist. A lot of clients have come to me and said, I love my therapist. I’ve learned so much, but I still walk in the front door. He or she does something, everything blows up and I’m still out of control and I don’t know how to control myself. And so the emotional part that, so there’s two parts that a divorce coach does. On the emotional front, we help clients understand how they navigate conflict in the moment. It’s a mindset thing. What is your mindset? It’s an emotional regulation thing. What are your tells that you’re emotionally dysregulated? And when you’re in your amygdala, please don’t have conversations with no connection to your prefrontal cortex. Go for a walk around the block, take a break. And if you think you can’t go in the bathroom and do some box breathing, there’s very quick things that you can do.

(13:24):

So we help clients in all of the emotions around, I think my teenager is a narcissist. No, they’re not. They’re teenagers. They’re totally self-focused. So there are all these things that we help them with in the moment. And then there’s that practical path. And this is where a lot of clients feel like, my therapist never got a divorce. They don’t know all of those things. And so which approach are you going to take? Are you going to go litigation, collaboration, mediation? Do you need a CDFA? Do you know what that is? When is a financial professional helpful? What’s going to happen when you start creating a parenting plan? If you’ve been the stay at home parent, you can have a lot of triggered emotions and how can we talk about what you need to see in dad who has been the primary earner so that you can feel more safe, that he is capable of being a parent, even if that wasn’t his division of labor up until now. And so we bring reason and perspective and an understanding of the journey. And so many of my clients do this hybrid of, I’m going to see my therapist twice a month. I’m going to see you twice a month, and I’m going to get this beautiful holistic support that I need going through divorce.

Dr. Sarah (14:44):

I really like that because genuinely, and as someone who’s obviously I’m biased, I think therapy is fantastic. I still have an ADHD coach, not a therapist. I think that there are times in life where coaching serves a function that therapy doesn’t always hit. And I think what you just described, this more holistic, wraparound like team approach. I’m a huge fan of multidisciplinary team approaches in creating a wraparound treatment plan. And I think when you have something as complex as a divorcing family system add in high conflict, that the complexity there, the amount of just, there’s so many logistics, there’s so many moving parts, there’s so many people whose feelings and needs and lives are in the balance, right? You’ve got kids. So I think of with family therapists, because what we do, a lot of our practice is family therapy and co-parenting support when families are divorcing and it’s much more about how do we, honestly, it’s a lot more about what does the family system need?

(16:00):

What is the developmental needs of the kids? How do we support them through this big transition? How do we support, I always say whether you’re doing couples therapy or family therapy, if you’re doing couples therapy, the real patient is the relationship. And when you’re doing family therapy, the real patient is the family system, not the identified patient. And that is, that’s really kind of where the magic happens. But I think with coaching, you are just more nimble, I think, to be able to say like, okay, we’re going to take this one problem and we’re going to break it down. Let’s just figure it out. What’s the next step? What are you going to do? And if they do this, what are you? There’s some stress testing, some, can you talk a little bit about that process? What would it look like if someone was working with you and they were, what’s a common challenge people face?

Karen (16:57):

Well, let’s stay with shared parenting because I think that’s such a good one. And I love what you just described in terms of the patient or the family system being the main thing that you’re working on. So I’ll have a client who is a stay at home parent, and I’m going to do this on both sides. I have a client who’s a stay at home parent and much like me, he can’t do that. Why? Because he hasn’t done it before. Okay, we’re going to talk about what assumptions are because it happened before it’s going to happen again. So when we get stuck in an assumption, we close off possibility. Or another thing is I’m going to interpret that because he says certain things or does certain things, my children won’t be safe. And so I’m holding back, I’m withdrawing and it’s not helping anything. And so what we’re dealing with is two things. First of all, what’s the likelihood that you could get sole custody if he’s not a pedophile, a criminal, somewhat like a chainsaw murderer? That’s not happening, not in today’s day and age. So let’s talk about what’s real and then let’s talk about your nervous system and what you need. And so a lot of times I’ll help clients come up with a strategy early, early on when they don’t have to share parenting. Share it now while you are all under the same roof.

(18:25):

Let dad be the one who gets up on Saturday and Sunday morning and take care of the kids. You go to your yoga class, go do something else. Take a leap of faith that he can do it. He hasn’t been doing, he’s not going to do it your way and your way isn’t the right way. And so we talk that through. Yes, it is. Okay, let’s look at that. So we break down belief systems and we open up possibility. And then the other thing is there’s so much, and this is an example of someplace where someone gets totally paralyzed and won’t do anything in coaching, we co-create an action plan. What’s a baby step you can take? Can you do an hour? Can you do a half a day? Can you do Sunday morning? What are we looking for? Can you text me if you feel like possibility?

(19:12):

And so we create this whole thing where there’s a path. There’s action steps between the coaching sessions, and we’re dealing again, both with the practical steps of moving forward as well as the mindset and emotions that keep us stuck. Most high conflict divorces. I have one woman just crested 15 years. Most high conflict divorces take two to five years, not because they’re complex, not because we have a ton of money, but because of that interplay of mindset and emotional regulation with the two parties. And so when we can come alongside the person who has been more crushed, who has been more lost in the relationship, and help them find themselves, bolster themselves up and truly keep taking one step after another and having us both as accountability, cheerleader, guide, support, it’s like lotus flowers, just watching people get to come back alive and open up and go, I love myself. I can do this. I can stand toe to toe, but boundaries is another one. I can’t set a boundary. He’s going to bite my head off. She’s going to crush me. And then, okay, what’s a baby boundary that you can set? And when we do it that way, I mean for me it’s just magical watching people come back alive.

Dr. Sarah (20:46):

If you’re listening to this episode, I imagine there might be a lot on your plate right now. I hope this podcast can be a good first step in helping you feel seen, guided, and held with psychologically and scientifically backed information you can trust. And for the moms who are looking to get additional support as you navigate a separation or divorce, I want to share a resource that might be helpful. At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer a virtual support group specifically for women navigating separation or divorce. This is a space where you don’t have to carry the weight of this transition alone, whether you’re still deciding what’s next in the middle of legal proceedings or working to rebuild your life on the other side. This group is here to offer support community and tools to help you feel more grounded and empowered, led by expert clinicians. The Women’s Divorce Group is designed to help you process what you’re going through, find clarity around your needs and boundaries and game coping strategies for everything from grief and guilt to co-parenting and identity shifts. To learn more about this group, you can visit our website upshurbren.com or just go to the episode description wherever you’re streaming the show to get links directly to learn more about this group or schedule a free 30 minute consultation so we can help guide you with suggestions for the best support options to meet your unique needs.

(22:07):

Do you find that most people come to you as individuals or do you work with couples who are working on divorcing even if there’s high conflict involved?

Karen (22:15):

No, because we’re high conflict. The spouse of has no interest in talking to me. I do some couples coaching and it’s couples who are on the verge who have heard enough about my way that they’ll say, would you work with us? And I’ll always do that, and I love saving marriages. I’m not an advocate of divorce, but I am an advocate of, if you’re going through divorce, let’s do it with grace and dignity. Let’s make this not just a transaction, but a transformation. And in my opinion, when for those of us who’ve come to high conflict divorce, we’ve got generations of this dysfunction. So let’s break generational chains. Let’s teach our children how to be emotionally mature and intelligent. So I do tend to work primarily, and I work with a lot of men. Probably 35 plus percent of my Rasta is men, but the vast majority of divorce coaches out there are women working with women and individuals, not couples.

Dr. Sarah (23:27):

Interesting because I would imagine there are mean, I think the high conflict kind of sets itself up if this divorce is by nature quite high conflict. There is, like you said, there’s probably a lot more going on beneath the surface for each individual in the partnership. There’s usually some trauma of some kind, whether it’s obvious or really subtle, pervasive, chronic old stuff.

Karen (23:56):

A thousand percent, I would say that the high conflict person, so I have a professional guy that I’m working with, and his wife is super high conflict. She’s severely traumatized, but she can’t see her part, so she blames him and she shames him. So she splashes all of her pain on him, and she can’t, can’t own it. And then you have clients who are married to alcoholics addicts, people with personality disorders. And so the client who’s married to the high conflict person, they always have trauma. They’re coming from families where a parent passed away, a mother was bipolar, a father was an alcoholic, we had narcissism, we had all of these, or just a culture of abuse on one side or another. Or what’s amazing to me after all of these years, if I have a client who comes to me and infidelity is part of the interplay, either her parents or his parents dealt with betrayal. And so it’s like we marry the wounds of our mother and father and then we play it out again. It’s almost like we’ve got this unconscious script blueprint that we’re following until we slam into the wall of divorce, wake up, start looking, take a closer look, do the work, and begin to clean up and break the generational chains going forward.

Dr. Sarah (25:29):

Yeah. Well, it’s interesting you use the word blueprint because I use that a tremendous amount to talk about attachment and attachment systems and how when we are very little, our first and early relationships and how we observe the world and how we are received by our attachment figures and how much we learn to expect that they will reliably and consistently help us feel safe and seen and soothed. That becomes our blueprint. And then we use that blueprint to anticipate how other people out in the world are going to treat us. And that’s our attachment system. And it becomes a bit of a pattern over time. And obviously there’s sort of sensitive periods in life where that blueprint is more open to editing. When you have early peer relationships, that can be something that edits our blueprint. You could have super secure relationships with your parents, and then you have a really rocky start with your first round of peer relationships, and that edits your blueprint to be a little bit more afraid or doubtful that people are going to make you feel good or meet your needs.

(26:42):

But if you have this chronic experience throughout life of this blueprint kind of gets compounded of I have to show up in a very specific way for people to meet my needs. I have to be a people pleaser. I have to anticipate their emotions and manage their emotions. That’s how that codependent sort of meshed anxious attachment style gets kind of written into the blueprint then. So it makes sense just from an attachment science kind of a way of thinking about this, how it does make sense that our attachment styles get, I should say, attachment patterns really that is a misnomer, that there’s like a style, but we have these repeatable patterns and that they will get played out in our romantic relationships too. And so that’s, it’s just funny that you use the word blueprint because that is exactly how I describe it, and I think that might be what you’re noticing get played out.

Karen (27:37):

Well, and I would love your thought on this. So I have found through all of these years, and I learned this about myself early on, I always abandoned myself. That’s what people pleasers do. It’s like, oh, I’m going to take care of your needs book before mine. And I remember reading this book many, many years ago in the beginning of my journey, and the author basically said, stop looking to your parents to fill those gaps, reparent yourself. And I started learning about inner child work, and then I started working with clients and time and time and time again, they would abandon themselves. And it’s like what I learned is when I abandoned myself, I’m going to attract people to abandon me. And it’s not until I fully re-parent myself and commit to myself that I will begin to attract human beings that commit to me. And it’s not just intimate. So many of my clients might have an abusive spouse and an abusive boss or an abusive landlord, and then they continue to abandon themselves in fear of these people. And so I’m just curious how that plays into your understanding of attachment patterns that abandoning oneself and then attracting that back.

Dr. Sarah (28:59):

Yeah. Well, the way I would think about it is going back to this original idea of what’s an attachment system? We are hardwired from birth to form this bond, this proximity, both emotional and physical to someone who’s going to keep us safe and alive. It’s survival. It’s actually a threat response. Our attachment systems get activated in times of threat. So if we have experiences, chronic experiences of being in a state of fear or threat or distress and not being sort of soothed or rescued, we have two options. We can become stuck, a state of sort of panic. So every time I feel fear, I’m going to freak out and just kind of flail, hoping someone is going to come save me. I know I have to get louder and more intense. That is that sort of anxious attachment, anxious ambivalence, attachment. And then, or my other option is I’m going to become needing of that.

(30:09):

I’m going to become, I’m going to turn that channel off because dependence on others is unreliable. It causes me more pain than the distress I’m in, and I just don’t want to be dependent on that. So in order to soothe that pain, I go kind of inward. And what’s interesting is that’s the avoid an attachment. And what’s kind of an interesting is that’s not distress free. When they would study children who are having that avoidant response, even though they look really calm because they’re not flailing and freaking out in the face of distress, it’s that they don’t expect that flailing or freaking out will yield any results. So they shut it down. But when they would put sensors on their skin and brain patterns, they would see spikes in cortisol still. They were in distress, they just stopped showing it.

(31:11):

And so that avoidance strategy is self preservative, but it’s not free from suffering. So I guess my thought, to answer your question of, well, when people are abandoning themselves, they’re not doing the flailing thing, they’re going into that shutdown. They’re not necessarily, they don’t expect anybody to help them, but they’re not feeling that a secure response would be, there isn’t anybody available to help me right now, but I know that I can help myself and I know that I can help myself because I have internalized other people in my life who have helped me. So what’s missing in the avoidant presentation is I don’t have an internalized sense of a helpful other that I can then call upon when I’m alone. Nobody here, I’m on my own. I don’t know if I can do this or not. I’m just going to kind of just pretend this isn’t happening. Whereas a secure person knows somebody has helped them before and they just are like, I now possess this capacity. So kind of what you were describing of where you got to is learning that you can do it on your own, but only because you’ve been helped by others in a way that made you feel like you were worthy of the help.

Karen (32:41):

Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think with so many of my clients, the fear of taking care of their needs over the others’ needs overrides the healthier behavior. And so in 12 step program, one of the things I learned is the very coping behaviors that we develop as children are brilliant. They’re intuitive. It’s like, I’m going to stay in the closet. I’m going to make the peace between mom and dad. It’s like we just brilliantly know how to stay safe, but we’re creating coping mechanisms that are dysfunctional. And then we’re like, okay, well that’s how you stay safe in the world. And then I’m going to meet my guy and I’m going to get married and I’m going to bring all these really not healthy coping mechanisms into the marriage. And then with my clients, I’m like, and now you want to blame him for everything, but you are a hundred percent responsible and he’s a hundred percent responsible. And so when we begin to dismantle that, and it’s like, why do I do these things? Oh my God, I was talking to one client and he was saying, oh my God, that’s exactly what I did with my dad, who scared the out of me?

(33:58):

And it’s like, yeah, but now you’re in your mid fifties. So can we relook at that? Can we talk? Are you in that kind of danger with your wife really piecing that apart? And this is an individual who does the therapy and coaching, and we’ll get to a point. And I’m like, would you bring that to your therapist? I’m hitting my wall. That’s the end of my wheelhouse. Bring that to your therapist and come back to me and let’s get to the next step. And it’s beautiful to watch the healing and the growth that can happen through, in my opinion, divorce is the most devastating transition because while the death of a loved one is devastating, it’s financial, it’s family, you lose your in-laws, you lose some of your friends, it’s social, it’s less time with the kids, it’s so multidimensional. And when someone can go through that and come out the other side and say, I’m better, I’m better for this. I’m a better mother, father person, parent. I mean, that is really the goal of the work that we do.

Dr. Sarah (35:10):

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that’s really, it’s a good point. I think death and loss is, it’s just so, I mean it could be pervasive, it can touch all parts of your life, but this is, it’s like a, did you say the name word grenade before?

Karen (35:28):

An emotional grenade.

Dr. Sarah (35:30):

That’s what I, and it does put shrapnel in all these systems. It’s very dismantling of a lot of things that we had come to take for granted. Perhaps that’s a question I had for you. So if someone is going through this, obviously there’s the core things like taking care of yourself, staying keeping your side of the street clean, knowing what you can and can’t control, thinking about what your kids are going to need and all those sort of basics, figuring out the load of parenthood. Where are other places that the shrapnel hits that people don’t think, oh, I didn’t even think about this. Like, oh, I lost my in-laws or I lost my village. Or what kinds of things is it helpful for people to consider in anticipation so that they can get their ducks in a row or feel like they know what they need to have a plan for?

Karen (36:27):

I think the best way I could describe that is a lot of people are going to have big emotions around your divorce, your children, your neighbors, your friends, your kids, your in-laws. And so one of the things I raised my kids on is what other people say and how they behave is about them, not you, what you say and how you behave. That’s about you. And so my ex-husband has a lot of anger management issues. He’s bipolar. I’m sure he’s on a spectrum or two. And so my kids were raised in a very confusing hostile household and then this household where I was adamant about having peace and calm. And so they went from one to another. And as young people, we just absorb so much. And so I think when you’re going through divorce, it’s so important to understand that there’s a lot of big emotions everywhere and everyone has an opinion.

(37:40):

And what I say is be very, very careful about your support system that you build. Your older sister, you may love her more than anything, but if she’s got her own baggage and she’s hating your spouse more than you are or jumping in the sandbox, she’s not on your A team. You need healthy human beings who are all about you, what you need, the decisions you’re making, the behaviors you’re engaged in. And when you can do that, when you can silo yourself in some ways, protect yourself and have your support team and allow all of that noise to just be so many of my clients get caught up in what the neighbor’s saying and what the in-law thinks of them. And they’re feeling so pulled. And it’s like anchor yourself. Anchor yourself in who you, and this is the best question to ask if you are entering especially a high conflict divorce, your guiding question is who do I choose to be through this process? And that will actually guide you through so much through the way you parent, through the way you navigate his or her behavior, regardless of how displeasing it is and not getting pulled to and fro by everyone who loves you because it can be so confusing and overwhelming.

Dr. Sarah (39:03):

Yeah. Oh, it’s interesting. It’s just like, don’t mistake people who love you deeply. The difference between people who love you deeply and the people who are the healthiest people have the most emotional regulation skills, the best perspective taking and have their own healthy relationship templates and blueprints. And you can surround yourself with people who love you, of course, important, but your A team sounds like it needs to actually be people who are skillful, who really understand relational and personal health and wellness.

Karen (39:39):

A thousand percent. And it’s actually, it’s a good boundary to start with. So I’m a middle child. I had an older and a younger sister. My younger sister, Namaste, emotionally intelligent, did all of this work. My older sister, not so much. So I would pick and choose when I would pick up the phone when my older sister called because if I didn’t have the capacity to hold my boundary, we’re not talking about that. I don’t want to hear how terrible it wasn’t helping me. But when it’s like, oh my God, it’s mom, let me pick up the phone. Well, is mom helping you at this moment? And are you strong enough? Are you standing on solid enough ground for someone who might want to jump into the dirty sandbox with you and complain about your spouse when you actually don’t need to do that right now? And so just being crystal clear and then that’s a good boundary. It’s like let it go to voicemail, call her later when you’ve got 10 minutes and you’re in a good headspace.

Dr. Sarah (40:42):

And you could steer the conversation to gardening or whatever.

Karen (40:47):

Exactly. But if you don’t do that, if you’re just like, oh, there’s my BFF who’s a hot mess herself, let me jump on the phone with her. When I just had an argument with my ex two minutes ago, my teenager told me I suck and they don’t even love me anymore. That’s not the time to pick up the phone and talk to somebody who’s going to be like, oh my God, your child’s a narcissist too. You have to be careful who you speak to when and that will serve you so well. And that question again, who do I choose to be navigating this divorce? For me, I was like, I want to go through this with grace and dignity. And I started as this frothing at the mouth. That was the first day that I realized I was in trouble. I created the one and only physical altercation in my marriage.

(41:38):

I jumped across the room, wrapped my chicken grease, hands around my ex-husband and started strangling him because he looked at my 2-year-old and told her, mommy doesn’t love you and that’s why she’s ignoring you. And it was just the straw that broke. It just broke me. And I did that and he grabbed my neck and he threw me up against a cabinet. Rightfully so in defense, don’t you ever lay hands on me again. That was our only physical altercation. And I went from that to two. I am determined to go through this divorce with grace and dignity and I wasn’t always graceful and dignified, but I did my best and it was three and a half years and now I get to help people do it.

Dr. Sarah (42:23):

That’s amazing. So like yeah, it is empowering because, and I think that, I’m glad you shared that because the reality is yes, in high conflict divorce, there may be an obvious person who holds the brunt of that conflict. And we’re in a system with them, we’re in a dance with them. And so we also probably show up as our worst selves a lot. And that’s why the relationship health is eroding, right?

Karen (42:53):

There’s a lot being set out there. I’ve been reading so much about this and I choose not to use the narcissistic word. I is not my zone of genius. I do not know. And so I talk about difficult personalities, but there’s a lot out there about, this sucks. We should stop calling it high conflict divorce because there’s an abuser. And I’m like, yes, there’s an abuser, but the traumatized man or woman who married that abuser is part of the high conflict. And we’re not talking about blame and fault, we’re talking about personal responsibility and we are part, and it is a high conflict dance and the only way to release the conflict is not trying to change that person, but fully working on healing my heart, refining my character, becoming the best person and parent I can be. That is what will lead to peace in your family, peace in your life, and peace in the world.

Dr. Sarah (43:59):

Amen. I could not agree to that more. What you said made me think like, okay, I don’t want to in any way deny that someone could be abusive, right?

Karen (44:10):

A hundred percent.

Dr. Sarah (44:11):

But if we limit ourselves to thinking about high conflict divorce as an abuser, well what’s on the opposite end, you have an abuser, then you have a victim. And when we create that abuser victim dyad, we disempower the person who’s being victimized. And it’s not to say that to deny that abuse is happening, but I think actually standing in this high conflict dance and analyzing it and breaking it down and seeing how you are two human beings dancing, one might be abusive in the way that they dance, but you are not a victim in the sense that you are powerless and at the whim of what the abuser chooses to do or not do, like the way that you are describing it, you are saying No, you have a ton of control. Not of all the things you might think you have control over or wish you had control over, but you have control over a very specific set of things. And that is incredibly empowering. And when you leverage that control, you can exit and hopefully with grace and dignity and some sanity.

Karen (45:19):

I would say that my ex-husband has been the greatest teacher in my life. I am grateful for my high conflict marriage. I’m grateful for my high conflict divorce. I’m grateful. I don’t know that without that I would be the human being that I am today. And if I weren’t the human being that I am today, I don’t believe my children who are now 29 and 27 would be the incredible human beings that they are. And so we have an opportunity. And Byron Katie, everything that happens is for us, not to us. We don’t have to like it. It’s just easier if we do is probably not perfect. But one of her sayings that I love the most that if you are here, and I have, if I could say on my Journey Beyond Divorce podcast, I have about 40 episodes in my Voices of Celebration series and there are men and women who have stepped into divorce, totally resistant heels, dug in expecting that this is the worst thing in the world that can happen, navigate through therapy and coaching and emerged on the other side going, I am so excited about myself and my future and my children and oh my God, I cannot believe that I am saying that this thing was for me and not against me. And that is what we wish that every single person who comes to Journey Beyond Divorce.

Dr. Sarah (46:58):

Yes. If people want to get more information about your podcast or your coaching practice, what can we tell them? Where can we send them?

Karen (47:08):

Beautiful. Thank you so much. So Journey Beyond Divorce, we’re in the top two divorce podcasts in the country and top 10 worldwide. We’ve got over 425 episodes. You could find anything you need. And jbddivorcesupport.com is our website. And the free gift, if I could, is if this resonating with you and you are stepping into or in the midst of divorce or anything more complex or high conflict, we have a rapid relief call where we help you get clear on what you need and offer you support that you, that works for your schedule and your wallet. And that is rapid relief call.com. So please book a call. You’ll speak to either me or one of my coaches, and we would love to support you.

Dr. Sarah (47:58):

Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is such a valuable work that you do, so I really appreciate it.

Karen (48:05):

Thank you so much.

Dr. Sarah (48:12):

Thanks so much for listening to Securely Attached. If this podcast has helped you feel more grounded or supported in your parenting journey, there’s something really simple you can do that makes a huge difference for me as I put this show together for you each week. And that’s hitting follow wherever you’re streaming this episode, following the show, or even leaving a quick review helps tell the algorithm that this podcast is valuable and gets the show into the ears of more parents just like you. So if you’re willing to take that extra moment, whether it’s following on your favorite platform or being an overachiever and following us on all of them or leaving a short review, I just want you to know it means so much to me. I’m so grateful you’re here. Thank you for being part of this community and don’t be a stranger.