372. Mom guilt, good guilt, and letting go: How to tell when guilt is helping you (and when it’s holding you back) with Dr. Saumya Dave

Dr. Saumya (00:00):

In the attempt to be told that we could do anything. I think so many of us tried to become everything. And so what we now see is a lot of burnout, a lot of guilt, a lot of guilt in not being able to do what we think of as not. But I think it’s created this really, really interesting and important situation even culturally for so many women where they’re wearing so many hats and they’re feeling so depleted. And yet there’s this question with so many women whom I work with and in my personal life who ask, am I doing enough? Am I still doing enough? So there’s still this self-doubt.

Dr. Sarah (00:36):

Have you ever found yourself lying awake at night, replaying the day, wondering whether you should have been more patient, more tuned, or just more? For so many of us, that never ending mom guilt keeps us from being fully present and enjoying the messy, joyful moments with our kids. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two who specializes in child development, emotion regulation and attachment science. And joining me this week on the podcast is Dr. Saumya Dave. Saumya is a psychiatrist mental health advocate and the author of the new novel, The Guilt Pill. In our conversation, and I unpack the difference between helpful guilt and the kind that erodes our confidence, we also talk about how perfectionism and good girl conditioning show up in parenthood and why simply shutting off difficult emotions can actually backfire and how we can help our children understand and work with guilt in a healthy, grounded way. So whether you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by the pressure to be everything to everyone, or you’re simply curious about where guilt comes from and how to loosen its grip, this episode blends science backed insights with a beautifully crafted work of fiction that brings these seam to life in such a powerful way.

(02:00):

Hi, Saumya, welcome to the Securely Attached podcast. It’s so great to see you.

Dr. Saumya (02:05):

Its so great to see you and so great to be here.

Dr. Sarah (02:08):

Yes. Okay, so I cannot wait to get into talking about your new book, which is called The Guilt Pill, and it’s about a mom who takes a pill that gets rid of her mom guilt right away. But before we do that, I feel like that is something that everyone probably is like, oh wait, wouldn’t that be nice about real life? But before we go down that path, I really want to start at the beginning and just ask you a little bit to share a little bit about what drew you into the field of women’s mental health.

Dr. Saumya (02:41):

So I’ve always been interested in women’s stories, women’s experiences. I mean, from a young age I was reading the Babysitters Club series, if anybody else listening, left those books and then Sweet Valley High. So really, I mean from the age I could take any information my those right? The twins, the twins throughout their journeys the best. And so I think it was something that I was just interested in as a whole, just what girls and women were going through, how they made sense of their experiences. And so when I went into medical school, it was actually because I thought I wanted to be an OB GYN, because that felt like a very natural alignment with what I was interested in my entire life. And then we did our clinical rotations, my third year of medical school and psychiatry was my last one. And I learned by that point that my favorite part of every other rotation was speaking with women, learning about what brought them into the clinic or the hospital bed, what they were dealing with when they left, and who was their support system or what was their lack of support system, what made them who they are.

(03:37):

And of course, as I then learned more about psychiatry and I learned more about therapy, I realized that that’s a lot of what those fields are about. They’re about learning people’s stories and really getting to know what small role we can play in those stories as providers. So that really led to a realization that was the right fit for me. And then throughout residency training, I continued to just learn as much as I could about what women went through, how that shaped them, and more importantly, what we don’t talk about, what we don’t talk about as individuals, what we don’t talk about as women and for women as a society and as a world. I grew up with my mom and the other women around me very openly discussing what they went through, but it was very much, oh, the women are talking about this and they bond over this and they get it. And then it stayed in that sphere. And so I saw books as this really incredible opportunity to explore some of those themes and those stories that actually tend to be somewhat universal. And so that’s really where the idea of exploring that through fiction came to mind.

Dr. Sarah (04:32):

And I want to talk about the book and I want to talk about how it ties into women’s health and mental health, but I also can’t help but look at the sort of meta piece of like, okay, you are a psychiatrist, you are a mom, and you are also writing nonfiction on the side. These are three full-time vocations. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. Yes, seriously, what was that like to say? Okay, I talking about guilt, right? I’ve pivoting to something that’s like writing novels, and I say that with deep respect for writers of fiction and nonfiction, right? But you went to medical school, you did all this work, you busted your butt to build this career, and I imagine it takes a tremendous amount of time and energy to do that creative work too. How did that cause What was the process for you like to be juggling all these things and did you experience guilt?

Dr. Saumya (05:49):

Well, so first and foremost, yes, I think the guilt is an ongoing force. And my friend and colleague, Dr. Eoin, she says guilt be treated like a white noise machine where it exists, its on. And maybe sometimes we can turn down the volume. It’s very appropriate for me having to turn down the volume on my white noise machine year. But I love that idea of it, which I’ll get more into. But yeah, it definitely caused guilt. There was definitely a lot of juggling. I grew up in a generation where the women around me and we were told if you worked harder, you could make things happen. And if you focused and if you were a good girl, and I say that in quotations, but you could be everything. You could be everything. And so in the attempt to be told that we could do anything, I think so many of us try to become everything.

(06:30):

And so what we now see is a lot of burnout, a lot of guilt, a lot of guilt in not being able to do what we think of as not enough. But I think it’s created this really, really interesting and important situation even culturally for so many women where they’re wearing so many hats and they’re feeling so depleted. And yet, and yet there’s this question so many women who I work with in my personal life who ask, am I doing enough? Am I still doing enough? So there’s still this self-doubt for me, I felt like having to write fiction, it just felt like a calling. It was something that made me feel whole and it made me feel creative and it made me feel connected to things that were greater than myself. And reading books always helped me as a young child. And so it was a dream of mine always to write one.

(07:14):

But to do that alongside medical treating definitely felt like burning the oil at both ends, so to speak. So it really did feel that way. And then becoming a mom made me face myself in ways that I didn’t expect. And this is something I’ve now learned happens to so many people when they become moms, they face parts of themselves, they face parts of their own parenting and their own upbringing. A lot of the traits that maybe help them get to where they are being type A or working really hard or following through those same traits can also have a difficult side to them in motherhood because children can be unpredictable. Babies might operate on the schedule they’re operating on no matter how much you read or try to perfect. And so one phrase I just find myself saying a lot and embracing a lot after becoming a mom is both and everything is both. And so the same trait that might’ve helped us accomplish things in one domain and of our life in motherhood, maybe that same trait actually deserves some gentleness and some self-compassion because again, babies will cue what they do and kids will do what they do. And so there’s a surrendering aspect that I think I wasn’t taught and I wasn’t forced to look at until coming to this stage in my own life.

Dr. Sarah (08:21):

And I imagine a lot of that experience goes into the actual content in the book. The book is called Mom Guilt. Can you tell us a little bit about the book?

Dr. Saumya (08:30):

Sure. So the book is about Maya Patel. She’s the CEO, and she is newly postpartum when the book starts. And she’s very, very overwhelmed and she is one of the only women actually at the company she has founded. And so she feels very alone in this journey and is trying to be everything to everyone. And she does an appearance on the Today Show to promote her startup at the very beginning of the book. And she does a very good job. And in all aspects of her life, she’s very good at maintaining this on the outside, no matter what she’s feeling like on the inside. And right after her segment is over, she hears from her role model a woman named Liz Anderson, who’s very big in the startup space, who says, you know what? You seem really overwhelmed. You actually remind me of my myself years ago, and I have this secret solution that can help you.

(09:12):

It’s an off market supplement that gets rid of guilt in women, and I think that could just help you get to where you want to go. So Maya takes it once. She’s an eldest daughter who follows all the rules. So she’s reluctant, but when she gets a taste of it, she loves the feeling of caring less about what people think and holding to her boundaries. And then she starts taking more and more of the pills and goes down a slippery slope. So the book really follows what happens when we actually don’t feel it anymore, and is there a reason we actually do feel it? And what are the different sides to guilt?

Dr. Sarah (09:41):

I love that because I feel like it’s like that pulling the veil off of the wish. Once we get it, we have to contend with all the things that we maybe didn’t think about what it brings, and who hasn’t sat up late at night feeling guilty about something they did with their kids or didn’t do or whatever, and wished they could just hit a light switch and turn that feeling off and and it’s kind of vicariously watching it through someone play it out for you. The takeaways there could be very valuable.

Dr. Saumya (10:22):

There are also so many things that I found out when I became a monk. I don’t know if this happened for you. There were so many things that happened. And then when I would share them with a friend who had had kids by that point, they would say, oh yeah, of course. Yeah, I didn’t want to tell you, but yeah, this happened to me too. Or Yeah, this happened to my friend. And I thought, wait, why aren’t we talking about this before and why aren’t we talking about this more openly? And I think there can be so many reasons why there’s a lot of emotional charge behind many of these experiences. There might be guilt and shame, there might be stigmas. And so there’s so many layers to what we do and don’t talk about in the experience of motherhood, but that was one of the other things I wanted to explore with fiction.

(10:58):

What are these experiences? What might they feel like and are some of them making us human and showing us that we’re just human? Because not finding every moment delightful and beautiful and worthy of a picture that should be posted on a grid. That’s normal. That’s normal. It’s okay to actually feel overwhelmed. It’s okay to have regrets. It’s okay to miss our old lives and our old selves. It’s okay to feel like our relationships and friendships have changed, our bodies have changed. But these are sometimes things that I think can be hard to face directly because we might feel like we’re supposed to enjoy every second when really it’s a full spectrum experience.

Dr. Sarah (11:35):

And to that point, the full spectrum of experience without it, it starts to actually not. You need the guilt, you need the grief, you need the anxiety. Those are all parts, the colors of the rainbow. If you take some of them out, it’s very two dimensional, right?

Dr. Saumya (11:56):

Totally.

Dr. Sarah (11:56):

They don’t feel good. And I don’t want people to feel like they have to become stuck in or consumed by those feelings. But yeah. I’m curious your thoughts on in terms of the characters in the book, but also just the larger work you do with mothers and women in your professional practice, what is the messaging there of how do we help people feel comfortable with having all the feelings, even the ones that are difficult?

Dr. Saumya (12:29):

I think it’s a great question and a few things come to mind. So one is that we’ve been taught some emotions are good and some emotions are bad. We qualify emotions. And I think it makes things organized that way. Even on a bigger scale, it’s easy to read something about happiness or joy and say, oh, that’s the good kind of emotion. I should try to have more of that. And there’s some validity to that idea. At the same time, I think it’s important to sometimes see our emotions as existing and trying to see what they might be trying to tell us. I did a lot of research on guilt itself when writing this book. And depending on which practitioner researcher whose work I was following, I found different categorizations of it. But one that I really liked was dividing guilt into adaptive guilt and maladaptive guilt.

(13:09):

So adaptive guilt being guilt that is aligned with our values, with the type of person we want to be with, the way we want to spend our time with who we want to become. And adaptive guilt, being guilt that really is taking us away from who we are and maybe going into a space that’s just not helpful and not feeling like it’s an alignment with us now or who we want to be, but really sitting with our guilt when it comes up and examining it and being curious and being happy with it and asking questions. If my friend felt guilty about this, do I think that she should feel guilty about this? Or is it okay? So if my friend got the chance to have some time away and some time just for herself, but she felt guilty about it, would I hope that she still takes that time for herself because I don’t inherently think that’s the wrong thing to do?

(13:50):

Probably. So then can I extend that same compassion to myself? So really sitting with it and being curious and compassionate I think are so important because it’s not all bad and it’s not all good. And sometimes guilt also comes from what I call emotional muscle memory. If we saw our moms being really guilted about something growing up, or if we see society shaming women for doing something that can maybe cause feelings of guilt, but that might not fully be our guilt to hold. So really getting curious about that and examining the layers beneath that, because I don’t think it’s often one thing or another. I think it tends to actually have a lot of layers no matter what it is that’s bringing the guilt.

Dr. Sarah (14:25):

Yeah, I like this idea. I haven’t heard about this dichotomy of adaptive guilt versus maladaptive guilt, but the way you describe it, what it made me think about is, okay, if I’m able to sit and reflect nonjudgmentally just with curiosity on what type of guilt this feeling or thought is connected to or what category would fit in, I guess I would think that the question might be for myself, is this guilt coming from a place of internal to your point values, or am I noticing this feeling as a result of being out of alignment with something that’s important to me or how I want to show up or how I see myself as a person in this world, whereas a maladaptive guilt has this, I guess you could ask the question, who taught me that? Where is it coming from? An external source of if this x action, if I’m able to look at it from a distance and say, is the thing I did, am I having guilty feelings because that thing is not in alignment with how I see myself, then okay, that’s good information.

(15:36):

I might, for example, if I feel guilty because I was on my phone when my kids were talking to, I literally just recorded an episode about this morning, and so I was just talking about this. I do feel guilt because I do have, I use my phone more than I want to, and I will scroll, I’ll be like doing something important, need to do productive, but I’m doing it in the kitchen in front of my kids and they’re trying to talk to me about their day. And I’m like, just one second, just one second, just one second. And then they get frustrated and they leave and I feel guilty. And to me, if I can pull back and say, okay, me prioritizing in that particular moment, my phone over my kid, that’s not actually in alignment with how I want to show up. And so that might be adaptive guilt.

(16:23):

It’s a cue. It’s a bell to say, Hey, hold on, Sarah, is this how you want to do this? And then I can make a shift. Maladaptive guilt might be to your example of going on a trip and taking some time for myself and feeling guilty about that, which I’ve also felt and do feel, and being able to say, okay, well, taking a trip and taking care of myself and taking time for myself is not actually out of alignment with the way I want to show up in my relationship with myself and even what I want to model to my family, that it’s good to do these things and to have nurture your relationships outside of other people in the immediate family. So then why is the guilt there? And so then I’d have to say, well, where did I learn that? Who taught me that? What have I internalized that’s giving me that sense? Because this isn’t in, it’s not out of alignment with who I want to be. Maybe that was a long worded thought process.

Dr. Saumya (17:27):

No, no, I thought that was perfect. I thought that was perfect. And it illustrates exactly the way I’ve even thought about it myself, and then even with I’m working with and then friends of mine. Yeah, absolutely. And then we then follow that questioning, where did I learn this? I think we might come up with multiple answers. We might see that, oh, well, maybe my mom felt like she never could take time for herself. Or maybe I’ve heard that it’s, or maybe I’ve heard that, oh, a woman seeping selfish. And I say selfish with a big, big, not selfish to do. That is the worst thing. And we’re supposed to always be available. We’re supposed to always be shapeshifting. And that’s what I grew up hearing and seeing. And so I think we often might come up with more answers to that. There’s even this idea, do we accept help?

(18:07):

And what does that mean for us? And does that cause guilt? So there’s a scene in the book where Maya, she doesn’t want her husband to do the night shifts because she feels like that’s her job. And so then when he does, she feels really bad until she takes the pill. But is that because we think that only the birthing person is supposed to be doing everything? Is that where that idea actually comes from? And so then to actually receive support from the other person who’s also parenting, it feels like it might induce guilt. So I think it does come up with a lot of potential answers that maybe might surprise us.

Dr. Sarah (18:38):

And even that scene you just described to me, my first thought is when she takes that pill to turn off the feeling of guilt, it’s really about distress tolerance, right? It’s like, okay, you can turn off the feeling, but you’re still dealing with the issue. And the issue, if we can slow down, tune in and be curious really is where is this messaging coming from? Is it actually, if me doing everything is actually, or I should say, if me getting help from my partner is not out of alignment with how I want to show up in this world and there’s guilt, where is that coming from? It’s like you can’t do that process if you shut off the signal.

Dr. Saumya (19:23):

100%. She should have seen you. She wouldn’t have even needed it because that’s exactly what she’s doing. She’s actually numbing herself from feeling it fully. And so she’s able to just turn it off, like you said, and shut it off and then move forward. But as the book shows, when that becomes the mode of living, there are consequences to it that can be really tough because ultimately we have to face, we have to face what the root causes are many times when it comes to this. And she ends up seeing how her own mom views motherhood, how her in-laws view motherhood, her own ideas about motherhood and work and all these different things. And so it really is facing up the self.

Dr. Sarah (20:02):

Yeah. Oh my God, I’m so happy. It’s so nice to see. I was thinking about this recently. I was interviewing this really amazing researcher, an author Tom Boyce, who wrote this book, the Orchid in The Dandelion, which will be coming out, episode will come out later. He writes so beautifully, but he’s like a pediatrician. He’s like a serious researcher. But he writes, I mean, and it’s a very serious book, but it’s poetic. And I was telling him how much I loved his book, and he’s like, oh yeah, I’m retired now and I just write fiction. And I was like, oh my God, your characters must be so incredible. And same with you. I think there’s some cool magic when these fields coalesce where it’s like someone who has literally studied the human condition for decades like you. And then the way you can use that to craft a character, that’s a really cool thing to bring to writing. And I think that’s rare, that intersection.

Dr. Saumya (21:09):

Oh, thank you. I actually think I’ve learned so much about people from writers. I really do. I’ve obviously learned so much from mental health providers and people in healthcare, but I have also learned a lot from writers because I think fiction, there have been studies on this that fiction increases empathy and fiction makes us feel connected with others. And I think even going back to our babysitter’s club in Sweet Valley High references, I think that’s maybe some of the first ways I understood friendships and dynamics with other people, probably through those books as much as people from my own life.

Dr. Sarah (21:36):

Yeah, I think that’s such a good point. I didn’t really think about that. Yeah, I mean, I was ravenous reader when I was a kid, and those books were like, oh, because there’s something different between reading a scene between a friendship dynamic. If a book is good, it’ll give you the inner dialogue and this the narration. And you lose that when you watch a movie of it or a TV show of it, they try to help you infer. But unless the style of that TV show or movie is actually playing the inner dialogue too as an overlay, you just don’t. And it’s like instructional almost.

Dr. Saumya (22:17):

I think there’s an element of when we fill in the blanks and we have to as readers, that helps us as well. I felt like I learned a lot from all forms of media. This was basically an episode about how I just watched too much TV and read too many books as a kid. So there’s also a scene in the book where Maya compares herself to Jesse Spano from Saved by the Bell in the episode where she takes the caffeine fells and actually feels a lot like her. I’m so excited. So, but what we take in and forms also what we know and what we talk about and what we think is okay to discuss and share openly. And so that’s why I think even conversations like this, your podcast, I think that does so much because before, I don’t know if people had spaces to turn to learn. And so listening to a podcast, the number of times I’ve heard someone say A podcast episode has changed topic, these things, it’s incredible.

Dr. Sarah (23:05):

Yeah. Hearing other people talk openly about something that you previously have thought but held in is very, very transformative. Whether it’s in a book, in a TV show or a movie on a podcast at a coffee with friends. I remember I was in grad school, I might’ve told this story in the podcast, I don’t even know, but I was in grad school and I first for clinical psychology, and I had not been to therapy before. And I remember standing on the subway with one of my classmates. We had just started, I just met him. It was a couple weeks in his school and we didn’t know each other that well. And I was like, oh, hey, where are you going now? And he’s like, oh, I’m going to go see my therapist. And I was like, oh, you just say that. Okay. And he said it was such nonchalance.

(24:02):

And I didn’t even realize at that time that I was like, whoa. I was aware in the moment that my reaction to my reaction allowed me to be like, oh, I hold biases. I hold some shame, or I hold some fear around saying that out loud. Where’s that internalized stigma come from? And this is like, I am a graduate student studying to become a psychologist. And it was like, thank God that moment happened. It was just this pivotal shift for me of like, oh, we can totally, it was like an inoculation. And from that moment on, I was like, we talk about this. And then of course now, I mean, I preach that, but it’s hard. It’s hard if you don’t grow up in a world where people, you’re like, oh, I’m on my way to therapy. And now I think it’s much more open, but it’s not everywhere.

Dr. Saumya (24:54):

No, you’re so right. I wonder if him saying it nonchalantly you said also helped with it. Then I wonder.

Dr. Sarah (25:00):

It was literally the jerk tone. It wasn’t like a self-disclosure. It was like, I’m going to the grocery store, I’m going to therapy. He possessed no differentiation. There was nothing in him that was in any way shadowy about that. And I was like, beautiful. I want that. Okay, we’re moving in a different direction now. And it was like chance, little random conversational on subway platform.

Dr. Saumya (25:29):

I love it. I also love how those chance encounters can be so powerful and transformative and we don’t even know that they’re coming, which is so cool. I think.

Dr. Sarah (25:37):

Yeah.

Dr. Saumya (25:39):

So maybe we’ll hear mom say, if you know what today, today is a really bad day. Today’s a day that I wish I could just exit for a little bit and then come back and maybe it can be said without fear of judgment and shame.

Dr. Sarah (25:50):

Yeah, that would be a great, if everyone takes that away from this episode, please. It’s okay to say today was a tough, tough one. I didn’t like it.

Dr. Saumya (26:01):

Totally. One of the books I read about just the new motherhood experience, and I read it as research for the novel, was to happen to hold by Molly. And she just does such an incredible job of normalizing a lot of the emotions that come up through this period and how people feel them. People just feel them. It doesn’t make you bad or good or anything. They just are, and that that’s okay. And she described one scene where she said in her old life that while she was putting her baby to bed, she was doing bedtime. She didn’t think, can you please go to sleep? Can you please go to sleep so I can just move on? And then right when the baby went to sleep, she said, I should have been more present. And then she learned that that’s such a universal way to feel that we are brushing through things because we’re tired and we’re overwhelmed. We have full plates, and then after they’re done, we’re thinking I should have been more depressive during those. But that’s a normal way to feel. That’s not something that makes us bad in any way.

Dr. Sarah (26:53):

I think that’s the thing is the guilt is a signal to check in.

Dr. Saumya (26:58):

Totally.

Dr. Sarah (26:58):

But the outcome of checking in may very well be that you can dismiss it.

Dr. Saumya (27:03):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (27:03):

Like, ah, nope, I’m allowed to fill out. That’s not, it’s not. But the signal’s important. We don’t want to mute it because it allows us to do that self editing, the ability to edit our self narrative, that work, and that gives the gift that keeps on giving, right? If you can edit the self narrative or the self-belief as a result of noticing guilt, auditing it and deciding, is this guilt useful and therefore going to inform how I want to show up differently or is this noise and in dismissing it, I now give myself permission to move forward in this action without inhibiting myself or feeling guilt or shame. I might still feel that signal. It doesn’t go away once you’ve been like, it doesn’t go away. Oh, I shouldn’t feel guilty about this. We are having this conversation. I will still feel guilty the next time I go out of town, but I will check in and say, no, I can dismiss that I’m allowed.

Dr. Saumya (28:12):

Yes. Yes. I love that because it puts a little bit of space between what we’re feeling and then what can come after that. So not to say the feeling isn’t important and it shouldn’t be seen, but that maybe there can be space between the feeling and then what comes after that and what we even tell ourselves after that. How do we speak to ourselves and what do we want to model and what do we want to carry forward?

Dr. Sarah (28:36):

As we’re talking about motherhood, guilt and the emotional load so many women carry, I want to take a moment to tell you about the supportive services we offer at my clinical practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group. Becoming a parent brings enormous changes, changes in who you are, how you show up in your relationships, and what you expect of yourself. Mom-guilt, overwhelm, burnout and self-doubt can creep in so quickly, especially when you’re juggling parenting work, partnership and your own needs. And while all of this is a normal part of the transition, having a space to process it can make a world of difference. Our clinical team specializes in maternal mental health and in helping women navigate the many transitions that come with parenthood. Whether you’re struggling with constant guilt or self-doubt, feeling disconnected from your pre parent self bumping up against the emotional challenges of raising kids or wanting support in your partnership as you figure out how to share the load therapy can help you feel more grounded, more steady and more yourself. Again, with offices in Pelham, New York, we offer in-person and virtual therapy as well as coaching support nationwide. To learn more, visit upshurbren.com or click the link in the episode description to schedule a free 30 minute consultation call. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. Parenthood can feel overwhelming, but you don’t have to navigate it alone. Alright, let’s get back to my conversation with Dr. Saumya Dave.

(30:13):

I think anytime we talk about motherhood, you can fairly certainly assume we’re also going to be talking about parenthood, and I think the same question is applicable to how do we raise kids who are able to understand what these feelings are, make sense of them, use them as reflection points, and also be able to either self edit or dismiss as a result. My son is a sensitive kid. He feels guilt easily. And I remember at a certain age, I think it was probably like six when I was trying to teach him what guilt was because I was like, I think this feeling, I think this feeling might be feeling called guilt. He was asking me, he was seeking reassurance about something.

Dr. Saumya (31:00):

So you said that said, I think this feeling might be guilt.

Dr. Sarah (31:03):

Yeah. Wow. We’ll, left that. I like that. And I explained it to him and I was like, probably was less articulate than I was on the fly, but I was like, he got it. And so we would lay the groundwork of that a little bit, and then now it’s available, it’s language available to us. So when he’s being kind, he’ll get sort of, yeah, that sort of he’ll do something he doesn’t feel good about and then he’ll want me to reassure him, so he’ll apologize many, many, many, many times. And I’m like, I actually am not upset about this. So you don’t need to keep apologizing. I wonder if the apologizing helps you feel less guilty, but maybe you could dismiss that feeling. I dunno, we’ve been working on this, so we have some brain that’s incredible.

Dr. Saumya (31:56):

But that’s incredible. I know, but that’s so incredible that you’re giving him the language, the definition, the tools to be able to articulate what’s going on for him and then cope with it and work through it. I think that’s incredible that you’re doing that. And it started when he was six. Wow. Taking notes for, so Nick was turned six yesterday and he’s very sensitive and feels still as well. So when I just heard you say that, I thought, wow, that’s incredible. I mean, the words he’s going to have for himself to even understand his own emotions, I think it’s just going to be transformative for him.

Dr. Sarah (32:25):

Yeah. I try not to overdo it. I could just like, I’m like, he’s a powerful one. Oh my God. One time my daughter, I was trying to get her, she was very stressed about something. I think she was like, I can’t remember if she was anxious or mad, but she was probably anxious. She was mad. And I said something like this, she would’ve just lost it on me, but she was anxious or stressed and I was like, where do you feel that feeling? Where do you feel it in your body? And she goes to me, she goes, mom, I am not a psychologist. I don’t know how to answer that. And I was like, that’s incredible. Noted. Okay, back off. I’m sorry. You’re right. And I was like, damn, girl, you’re good. I was like, more than you realize. She was so articulate being back off lady on the site talk. So I try to watch it.

Dr. Saumya (33:21):

Oh my gosh, I love that so, so much. And what you were saying about motherhood conversations often then being about parenthood. So true. One of the things that attracted me to the idea of mom guilt was that for many years I never heard the term dad guilt. I just never heard it being passed around. And so I remember thinking when I was writing the book, where Is Dad Guilt? And then I learned a lot about what even paternity leave does to brains when they’re able to take it and all the things that happen to someone when they are able to do the caregiving work. And one day, this was after the book was turned in, my husband, he travels sometimes for the work. He said, I feel a lot of dad guilt for the work travel. I don’t like it. And I remember thinking, okay, I feel bad for you.

(34:02):

And I also feel so happy that you are feeling dad guilt and you’re really feeling it. And I think it is coming from seeing this as a part of the ongoing set of responsibilities and love and care that’s a part of your life. It’s not just one. And so now I actually do feel like I hear many dads say either they feel guilty or they suggest things around that. And so I think even that language that we use about, oh, mom, guilt mom frame, mom this, mom that it’s starting to shift and it’s starting to be really looked at, which I think is incredible and cultural and societal too.

Dr. Sarah (34:34):

Absolutely. There’s so many layers to that, to your point. On the one hand it’s like, oh, I don’t want you to feel that way. And I would give you the same tools to sort of audit and dismiss potentially that guilt as I would want anyone, any woman to use. And then there’s this other piece of like, ah, the more we share the load of caregiving, the more we both identify as this parental self, and then we associate specific types of guilt connected to that identity. And so it’s beautiful that more men are integrating that identity as dad and are able to sort of segment off this guilt is related to that role. And if I wasn’t identifying with that role, I might not even have this guilt because I think that was why women so disproportionately felt it in, why it was named that because we took on the load and it was a very specific load associated with a very specific identity. And the guilt only comes from deviating from that identity or that idealized identity that’s not real for the record. The perfect mother who can do it all.

Dr. Saumya (35:47):

Totally. And then like you said, as we share the load of caregiving, we also share some of these other feelings that come like that. And so I think that’s important. I think that’s important to make people feel less alone. And it’s important for dismantling some of these ideas that might not be really serving anybody.

Dr. Sarah (36:03):

So if you’re listening to this and your husband says too, I’m feeling dad guilt, and there’s a part of you that wants to be like, oh yeah, well let me tell you, you can also find the compassion and be like, thank you for having that identity to feel guilty about.

Dr. Saumya (36:17):

Both/and.

Dr. Sarah (36:23):

I love that. So if people want to read this book, where can we send them? How can they connect with you?

Dr. Saumya (36:30):

So the book is sold to wherever books are sold, so across all retailers. And I am at @saumyajDave on Instagram, and then my website is saumyadave.com. So always happy to be connected and to share more about this, and I’m always learning too, so I appreciate anybody who’s in this space in conversation.

Dr. Sarah (36:49):

Absolutely. And are you going to write any more books?

Dr. Saumya (36:52):

Yes, I’m working on my, so I just turned in my proposal for my next one yesterday, and it’s a perimenopausal thriller. So you have a niche. I just can’t stop. I know. I can’t stop. See, women are always going through things, so I might be doing this for as long as possible.

Dr. Sarah (37:07):

Oh my God, I love that. Oh my God, I cannot wait to read that one. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Everyone go get her book. It’s going to be, you’ll be happy you read it.

Dr. Saumya (37:17):

Thank you.

Dr. Sarah (37:17):

It’s time we take some time for ourselves and read a good book.

Dr. Saumya (37:23):

I appreciate that. And thank you for all the work you do here and everywhere else. I really, really appreciate it so much.

Dr. Sarah (37:35):

If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you, share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on. And let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me, and just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how the show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.