Gayane (00:00):

Essentially everyone is seeking perfection. You might not consciously be thinking that no one is saying I want the perfect baby, but I think all these things we’re doing is to achieve perfection, to achieve a perfect sleep schedule, to have a baby who eats everything, to have a baby develop perfectly. No one is saying that word, but I think subconsciously that’s what everyone is aiming for.

Dr. Sarah (00:30):

We go into motherhood with so many expectations, visions of how we’ll parent, how our children will behave, and how we’ll feel in the process. But when reality doesn’t match the fantasy, it can leave us feeling anxious, overwhelmed, or like we’re doing something wrong. In this episode, licensed Marriage and family therapist, Gayane Aramyan joins me to unpack the need for control in motherhood and how that contributes to stress and why adding more flexibility to our parenting philosophy can be a game changer. We’ll also talk about what to do when you hit a phase of your child’s development that you just don’t like, or how millennial mothers are shifting from past parenting norms and ways to recognize when mom guilt might be holding you back. So if you’ve ever felt like you’re struggling to keep up with the perfect mom ideal, this conversation will be just the breath of fresh air. You need to start letting that go.

(01:28):

Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights. So you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. This is Securely Attached.

(02:01):

Hi, today we are welcoming Gayane Aramyan onto the podcast. Thanks so much for being here.

Gayane (02:12):

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sarah (02:15):

Tell me a little bit about the work that you do and how you’ve built a practice working with mothers.

Gayane (02:22):

Sure. So I have been in the field from a really young age over now 14 years. The other day I posted this on social media saying 10 years, and I was like, wait a second. It’s been like 14 years. So I got started out as an assistant to a therapist and then got trained to run anger management groups. It’s something you can do without having a degree, and so as long as you do the training, you can start being an anger management facilitator. And so I started doing that while I went to school. Fast forward to graduating, getting my degree in clinical psychology with an emphasis of marriage and family therapy. I became an associate to my boss who I was working for all that time and got into private practice and then around 2020 I was going on my maternity. I got pregnant, there was a pandemic, a lot happened that year, and I went on my maternity leave and I thought, what perfect timing to take my board exam and study for it while I’m on maternity leave and in the newborn stage, I don’t know what I was thinking and I don’t know how, and maybe people did say something, but of course you don’t hear it.

(03:43):

So I decided to study for my exam while I had my newborn, and it was the hardest period for sure. Definitely I struggled with postpartum depression. I later found out that I also had hypothyroidism at six months postpartum. So a lot happened there emotionally, mentally, in all ways. And so that was my moment where I realized that as a therapist, I went into this postpartum phase knowing almost nothing about what postpartum is. I also experienced pregnancy depression, which again, I don’t ever recall hearing about at the time. So there was a lot of things that I was like, you know what? This is something I want to help moms figure out. I want them to feel more prepared, more educated. And I was one of those moms that decided, of course to control my anxiety, took every class, breastfeeding, CPR, birthing all the things, and none of them talked about what happens to a mom’s mental health. So shortly after going through my own healing journey, working with my therapist, I became trained in perinatal mental health. Since then, I’ve been working with many moms. I always say my ideal client is working with someone even before pregnancy and going along through the journey of pregnancy, postpartum, even toddlerhood. But reality is I get the call six weeks postpartum, which is still great, but I do, I am really, really passionate about changing that to starting therapy beforehand. So you can be more equipped for this life-changing transition.

Dr. Sarah (05:36):

Yes. Oh my God, I’m so glad you bring that up because I find that to be, I mean, think, listen, in our industry, we tend to get the call all after things are starting to fall apart, and it’s not as common to get the proactive, Hey, I’m planning for this life change and I know I carry some vulnerabilities and I want to just get my ducks in a row before I enter this new threshold of parenthood or whatever transition is upcoming. But I do think it is always the wish that we could get there before everything hits the fan. And even just when you were telling your own story, you were like, oh, the fantasy of, oh, I’m going to go on maternity leave and I’ll have this couple months to study for my exam. It’s like that is a really common and normal thought process for a lot of women who are first time parents. And some really well-intentioned people are like, oh, that’s probably, maybe you won’t want to do that, or maybe you shouldn’t put off that plan and you don’t want to hear it. Like, no, I got this. I could do it all. And then you’re in it and it’s like, oh my God, I’m a human. Being with another human being and studying for an exam is like, it just doesn’t fit into this. I can’t budge this in.

Gayane (07:12):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that we’re naive to some extent. We think that we’re going to be able to do it even if we hear about the struggles, there’s a part of us that says, no, I’ll be fine. I think I told my clients I’m going to be back in a month and I was gone for six months. So definitely feeling naive and you’re going to do your best. And I guess there’s some sense of pressure too. Looking back, I am proud that I did it, but by no means am I talking about it as, look at me, I did that. I wish I didn’t put myself through that. I wish I was able to enjoy my son as much as possible and be more present in that sense. So I think that there’s a lot of pressure we put on ourselves, especially as working moms, modern day moms to get back up on our feet again and fast. And you see social media and of course no one sees the struggle behind a post and they think that that’s what it’s supposed to look like, and that’s just not reality.

Dr. Sarah (08:25):

And I feel like there’s so many different types of people who kind of go into their first pregnancy and even their second, I went into my second with certain expectations that it would look a little bit like my first, and it was nothing like that. And that was even, I feel like the lack of control we have over how things unfold in pregnancy and postpartum, even with multiple iterations of reentering motherhood, again, it’s like there’s definitely a lack of control, a sense of giving the reins up. But I think for a lot of women, especially really high achieving women or women who struggle with control and perfectionism, that is really destabilizing and it actually can lead us to hold on tighter to certain things because we not having control in certain areas makes us hyper control other areas.

Gayane (09:32):

Absolutely. And I think that’s why we’re seeing so much of moms struggle with particularly anxiety postpartum about the schedule, the feeding, the ounces, the wake windows. And I always say it’s a blessing to be in this modern day world of parenting, but it’s also a curse. We have overload of information. And so I think because they lack control and maybe sense of self and the confidence, they’re seeking that control and gaining it from these sleep schedules, something concrete. Babies should sleep for this many minutes and they watch the clock. They make sure to do anything and everything to get that baby on a schedule. And reality is, and I’m someone who loves schedules. Reality is that especially in those first few months for some longer than that, it’s hard to have a schedule. And every baby is different.

Dr. Sarah (10:35):

And I think I could see a lot of ways in which control and the really understandable need for control, it’s like a protective factor. When I feel out of control, I protect against the threat of that lack of control by grabbing onto other things tightly. And I think one of the things that I know you’ve talked a lot about is that we can sometimes want to control aspects of our child’s development that we don’t really have control over. I think that’s the crux of it, is like there’s a whole nother human here and we really want to try to control things, but they keep throwing complete wrenches in our efforts because they’re just completely an entirely other person with their own unexpected needs, unexpected agenda, unexpected developmental leaps like…

Gayane (11:31):

Yes, absolutely. I mean, even with my son, you could call it was by the books and ate all the things during pregnancy. I had wild caught fish every week to make sure he was getting the nutrients. I was all about that. And one year after he was born, he got diagnosed with what’s called accommodated. So his eye started going inwards. While he would be eating, we’d see that his eye would kind of move that way. And till this day, I don’t really have an explanation of why, how all the things, and I believe it’s something that happens during development in the utero. And it was just one of those moments where I was like, wow, it doesn’t mean if you do X, Y, and Z, it doesn’t always equal to something that you’re aiming for. And anything can happen with a baby and a child. And so that was such a wake up call for me that I can’t have control over everything. And thankfully it’s something he’s going to grow out of eventually. And now we love him in glasses. At first it was a huge shock.

(12:50):

He was only one, but now it’s his whole identity and he’s the cutest with or without them. But it was just one of those moments where I thought, I have all the control. I’m going to eat all the things, do all the things. So then essentially everyone is seeking perfection. You might not consciously be thinking that No one is saying I want the perfect baby, but I think all these things we’re doing is to achieve perfection, to achieve a perfect sleep schedule, to have a baby who eats everything, to have a baby develop perfectly. No one is saying that word, but I think subconsciously that’s what everyone is aiming for.

Dr. Sarah (13:31):

And I think that’s driven by so many factors. It’s driven to some degree fear. If I don’t do all these things, what if something bad happens? But also I am supposed to do all these things and I’m supposed to do them a hundred percent right a hundred percent of the time because that’s the expectation of mothers, even if that’s not always explicitly said, there’s a lot of implicit communication around that, and it has been for generations. We all carry that with us deeply.

Gayane (14:02):

Absolutely, yes. Yeah, there is absolutely a lot of pressure. And I always say there could be a balance with all of this thinking, the things I choose to feed my son, I still try as much as possible to feed him all the things, but then there’s room for flexibility now. And that’s the shift I’ve made in my thinking of he goes to school, they have other type of snacks, there are other types of food. If he goes out, if he’s at a party, I can’t have control over every single scenario because I would drive myself crazy. So what I’ve adapted is when I’m at home, when we’re at home with my husband, whatever we cook, the snacks we give at home, that’s all my control and I’ll choose to provide X, Y, and Z, but if he’s outside of my control, he can. It’s a free for all. But that for me, that’s the balanced thinking, right? It’s not extreme because, and I do see a lot of moms struggle with that. What happens when my child goes to in-law’s house or my family’s home and they offer candy and sweets? Reality is sure, you can tell them, Hey, I’d really appreciate if you don’t give him sweets, whatever. But we can’t control other scenarios. It’s hard to, as long as it’s safe.

Dr. Sarah (15:27):

Of course. Totally. It’s funny when you’re just saying that also makes me think, it’s almost like a picture in my mind of you have this child and then in the beginning of development, even before they’re born, this child lives inside of the belly where you have, think of that as the environmental circle that surrounds them. And you have a lot of control, far more than you’ll probably ever have again of the environment, but still not complete control. We do not control our body and their body and that environment completely. And that’s I think the first reality check of how much control versus how little control I really have over the environment. And then they’re born and that circle gets bigger. The environment that they live in gets bigger. But even in early infancy, you still have a lot of control over how big that circle is and what happens inside of it. And then as they start to get older and move through development, that environmental circle that surrounds them starts to get so much steadily bigger and bigger. They go to daycare, they start going on play dates, they maybe go to day camp, they start to have pure relationships that are as important as their relationship with you. And then they start to, it’s going to go on and on and on, and that circle of their environment is going to become steadily more and more unwieldy for us to even attempt to control. And I think that where the danger starts to come for parents is, and the parent child relationship is when that environmental circle around the child becomes appropriately too big for us to try to control and we really grab on tight and try to control it. I think that’s where a lot of breakdown happens.

Gayane (17:20):

And again, with modern day technology, I mean I don’t speak about teenage years yet still in the four to five stage, but I do have a lot of family and friends who have teenagers and they have these tracking apps and I dunno, there’s certain cars that you can see the camera, the speed of the car, it’s just so advanced. And I always think like, wow, what am going to be like when I’m in that stage? And that’s exactly it. I wonder, and I’m sure I don’t just wonder that this type of need for control and these anxious thoughts of wanting to make sure nothing happens to your baby continues on in this modern day parenting to teenage years and possibly after of wanting to be in the know of things. And again, there should be a balance. We should be in the know to some extent, but then also to allow room for error, really.

Dr. Sarah (18:21):

And also room for letting go because I think there are some things we can control and it’s okay to do our best to have some keep our finger on the pulse of that, but the ratio of things we can control to things we can’t control change as our child grows. And I think having some radical acceptance of that reality early on is so important for parents because it starts to allow us to orient ourselves and invest our energy into the things we do have control over instead of trying to waste our energy on trying to control the things we can’t.

(19:02):

And it makes me think too, which I know is something we really wanted to touch on in this episode, is this idea of acceptance versus control in parenthood and giving ourselves a lot of grace for when we have an urge to control something we can’t or how do we accept some of the things that our feelings about how parenting is going when your kid is at a certain stage of development. There are certain times where this feels really wonderful. This is the fantasy being realized, and there’s a lot of phases of your child’s development, and I think it’s different for every person, which of these we like and which we don’t, but there’s a lot of phases of a child’s development that we might have had an idealized vision of how it was going to feel when they were in these particular stages. And then those stages arrive and you’re like, oh my God, I don’t like this. How common is that in your experience? Do you see that a lot in the work you have done with parents?

Gayane (20:10):

Yes. I do think it’s different for everybody. I believe that a lot of your internal, your inner child shows up in motherhood, so a lot of things, maybe you struggled at a certain age show up when your child turns that age. I’ve definitely experienced that with clients. If they’ve had any sort of major event happen around five and their child turns five, a lot of feelings show up then Everyone has different triggers, everyone has different capacities. For me, the newborn stage was extremely difficult. Now my son is four and a half and I love the stage. It’s still very difficult. He has so much energy and he’s just so curious, so wise, and it’s amazing having conversations with him and the love he shows me. I think with babies it’s hard because they don’t really, there’s no feedback on how you’re feeling with this stage.

(21:16):

I’m noticing that there’s a lot of, sometimes if I raise my voice and I’m having a tough day and I’ll always repair with him and apologize and he’ll just so forgiving and he’ll be like, that’s okay, mama immediately melts me, immediately forgives me. And it’s just a very different stage for me. But those newborn days, those were such difficult days for me. I think I do see that more in those years that is more common because we as moms don’t have the confidence yet. We don’t know what we’re doing. A lot of moms experience identity loss. They don’t know who they are. They don’t, don’t know if they want to go back to work. They don’t know if they want to start working, if they didn’t. Friendships change, relationship changes. There’s a lot of changes. And I do hear that as years go by, it apparently gets more difficult, which I’m like, really? I thought we were over that. But I think it’s different, difficult, at least you as a person feel a little bit more collected, put together, confident. You trust yourself a little bit more to handle those difficulties. Whereas in the newborn stage in those first few years, it’s so fragile and vulnerable and raw. And it’s almost like both of you are developing.

Dr. Sarah (22:43):

Yeah, it is. It’s like you have this infant, but you in a lot of ways have entered the infancy of motherhood.

Gayane (22:53):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (22:54):

Right. This is mires essence. Scent is, I think we’re starting to understand this as a real developmental phase that women and any parent pitressin, just like there’s matress and any parent is going to go through a developmental transformation when they become a parent. And so yes, there’s parts of us that become very adults in the face of raising a newborn and keeping them safe. And this mama bear shows up inside of us. But I also think, yeah, this inner child shows up too. This new part of us is kind of born and is new to this world and is like, where’s my mama? What am I doing?

Gayane (23:42):

Yeah. A lot of moms really feel like they want to be mothered themselves, and so much of the attention is put on, of course, raising the baby, making sure baby’s safe, fed healthy, all the things that many moms don’t put that attention on them on themselves. And that’s one of the biggest things that I prioritize if I’m working with someone before they give birth, is making sure we have some sort of a plan, even if they never look at it again. I mean, granted, if they’re still working with me postpartum, I’m going to make them reflect back and open that page up and look at it.

(24:24):

But really it’s to implement the importance of also showing up for yourself, setting up the support system in a way that you can go take a shower in a way that you can go on a walk or you can close your eyes for 30 minutes. Because one of the biggest things I would say moms struggle with in the postpartum phase, sometimes they have the support, even if it’s just their partner, they struggle asking for help. And so that’s again, something to work on before giving birth because if you unlock that feature, then you can actually ask for help. You can have people show up for you. You don’t have to suffer. A lot of moms suffer as if we’re going to get this gold medal at the end that’s says, thank you so much for suffering, appreciate it all.

Dr. Sarah (25:18):

And then when you don’t, because that doesn’t happen. There’s resentment that can definitely build.

Gayane (25:24):

Exactly. And I think there’s this misconception about taking care of yourself. I’ve heard mom say, well, this is the time I need to sacrifice everything for my baby. And that’s just something we’ve generationally have seen is the sacrifice moms make. Right?

(25:44):

I’m Armenian, so I come from a very cultural background, and our moms generation all sacrificed everything and all to raise kids and they’re amazing. And they were amazing for what they did. But now what I do see is a lot of those women in their maybe sixties are really feeling low, maybe even depressed and not like themselves. They don’t know what to do. They don’t have a purpose because they spent their whole life pouring into their kids. Now their kids are adults and now they’re stuck with not knowing who they are. It’s almost like they’re having that identity crisis at that age.

Dr. Sarah (26:23):

Like a deferred crisis.

Gayane (26:26):

Yes. And that’s all we’ve seen as a mom who sacrificed career, didn’t work, stayed with us. My mom took me to all the activities, did all the things. I don’t recall her taking care of herself. I don’t recall her prioritizing herself. That’s just not something that was modeled. I don’t think it was even socially encouraged or accepted.

Dr. Sarah (26:53):

I think it’s idealized a lot to some degree and rewarded and valid. It is reinforced when a mother is. So she actually probably gets a lot of reinforcement for that from our culture. And certainly it might even be stronger across different cultures. But I think generally, gosh, I can’t think of a single culture that comes to mind. I’m sure there are, but that doesn’t to some degree glorify motherhood.

(27:23):

But not the mother as a human, but as sort of a superhuman. And there was a thing else that just occurred to me is almost like when you were describing these older mothers that you have seen go through this deferred identity crisis. It brings me back to this image of them as mothers. And we’re talking about, okay, here you are holding this baby. And in some ways that activates this really competent and adult version of yourself to show up, which is a real part of you. And at the same time as you’re being birthed into motherhood, there’s this infant part of you that’s like, I need a mother. But those are kind of incompatible, and I think very appropriately to some degree and sort of biologically, we’re probably hardwired to lean into the other, to the more, because we’re really wired to keep our baby safe. We’re really wired as a species to be the mom, protect the baby. And so this other part of us that’s vulnerable and needs more help and is a bit fragile appropriately, but that’s not compatible with our biological drives to protect this baby. And so just innately, but also probably because of all the other stuff we’ve been talking about, cultural pressures, we cut that part of ourselves off. We can’t live with that conflict, so we have to splice it and lean in exclusively to the adult part of ourselves.

Gayane (29:02):

And I mean, there’s been many times even at this stage of parenting where I’ll call my mom and I’ll be like, can you please come over? I’m struggling here. I can’t get anything done. Can you pick him up from school? Can you bring him home? I still need my mom’s support and my mother-in-laws, I mean my sister-in-laws, I have a big support system, and if I didn’t have them in the postpartum phase, it would’ve been, even though my husband has been always very involved, very supportive, very much a part of it that also motherly and womanly figure is a different component. It’s like wanting to be mothered as well, no matter what stage of parenting you’re in. The other part of this is that I think that yes, they had the pressure to be the self-sacrificing mom. Now in the modern day world, we’re struggling with the self-sacrificing mom who also works, who’s also still expected to do housework, who also is on top of all the kid activity things, which again, I think our moms dealt with some part of it, but it’s so different nowadays. There’s goodie bags that get passed down in the birthday parties. There’s goodie bags for school events, just little things. I’m thinking of that…

Dr. Sarah (30:26):

Right? The million micro things.

Gayane (30:29):

Yes. When I tell my mom, she’s like, we never did that. And you have the social media pressure and all the overload of information of one day sound machine is great for babies. And then the next day you see a study that says like, oh, it’s damaging their ears. And you’re like, wait a second. I just spent, my son still has a sound machine.

Dr. Sarah (30:52):

Right? There’s just too much noise. So much noise.

Gayane (30:55):

Yes. And so the pressure now I truly believe is a lot more, and that’s why we’re seeing so many moms struggle right now, and thankfully there’s resources now to get the help. Again, comparing that to the other generation, older generations, it wasn’t as accessible as it is now. So I think they suffered. They did also experience postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, but they didn’t have the words for it. They didn’t have anybody to talk to about these things. And then they had this pressure to be this self-sacrificing mother who put her feelings and needs aside.

Dr. Sarah (31:39):

And it’s like every generation’s going to have some combo of tricky stuff and benefits from the previous generation. I think to your point, we have more permission I think in our generation of parents, has more permission I think, to have needs and to be a whole person. And at the same time, there’s way more messaging. It’s like there’s more messaging in both directions in way more intense outputs, but hopefully we’re giving parents more of what they need. And then ideally the skills to turn off all of the noise coming in from the very extreme opposite communications, which still for sure exist. But I don’t know. I just feel like, yeah, it makes sense that whether it’s today or 40 ago had to sort of separate parts of yourself out to feel like you could survive motherhood, that you might move all the way to the end of that period of your life kind of fragmented. And then when the motherhood part stops because your kids have grown and you’ll always be their mom, but the need to be that identity is no longer so central. You have to go all the way back in time to try to reintegrate you left that part, it atrophied or it’s stuck there versus being able to notice it and integrate it. Now as you’re moving through parenthood, be like, I am a whole human being. I’m a mother. I am a daughter. I am a partner, I’m a worker, I’m a whatever. I’m me. I have a relationship myself. There’s so many roles that we have to try to integrate now. Or we will wake up in 30 years and be like, I lost part of me.

Gayane (33:38):

And that leads to resentment. I mean, the relationship issues that arise from having your needs sacrificed, I think that shows up a lot as well. And it’s hard. It’s not easy to break away from that generational cycle of the self-sacrificing. Right. And that’s why I think mom guilt is so big right now, and so many moms experience mom guilt, and it prevents them from doing so many things. It’s because all they’ve heard is the self-sacrificing mother, and all of a sudden it’s saying no. It’s saying, no, I need help. No, I want to go out with my friends. No, I want to have someone else pick my child up from school. There’s so much there. And by the way, even though I preached this, I’ve struggled with it too. I think this year was the first year since my son started school where I’ve been leaning into grandmas and grandparents to pick him up from school so I can get more time in my day, even if it’s just for an hour. And the year prior I was always like, no, I have to get him. I have to be there at every pickup, at every drop off, leaning into my husband to take him to school more often and just having that help be actually there for you.

(35:09):

But that mom guilt is always saying, no, you should be the one doing it. Right. And I’ll tell my son, I’m very honest with him, if my husband and I are going out or if I’m going out to see a girlfriend, I tell him, I’m going to dinner with my friend, I’m not coming. And I’d say, no, mama needs your time and I love you very much. And I’ll just validate his feelings and all that, but still stick with my plans. But I also have seen a lot of moms who hear that and cancel the plan and don’t go anywhere.

Dr. Sarah (35:43):

Yeah. And I think this ties back to the sense of parenting from fear and parenting from control and saying, if I don’t show up perfect, what could happen? What’s the worst thing that could happen? And I think we do a disservice to parents, I think, in giving them, obviously I am always really mindful when I put out content to parents telling them like, oh, this is helpful, or do this or don’t do this. I am always trying to come up with some way to communicate if that works for you, because I think it’s like everyone has great strategies, but they’re not going to work for every person, every situation, every time. And so we think, okay, I heard this thing. I am supposed to make my child feel like they can always rely on me and that I’m always going to be there for them. And that’s great. That’s great as a general global orientation.

(36:47):

But you are never going to have every single moment in your relationship with your child be one in which you can show up dependably because their needs for you won’t always match your needs for yourself or to hang with your partner or disappointing our kids and seeing that little lipstick out, we gom coming on your date and you’re like, oh, it’s going to kick up all the feels, but how powerful to say to that child like, oh yeah, I’m going to miss you too. I love you and I’ll tell you all about it when I get home. Just embodying that confidence that they can cope with that feeling like we’re still being reliable for our kids, but I think if we take things so literally and make them like our playbook, we get really locked in and we can’t be as nimble in parenthood because we really need to be, I don’t know. I think there’s been a big move towards a child-centric approach to parenthood, and I think it was in response to a very adult centered approach to parenthood that had been around previously. And I think it’s a good correction, but I think it’s an overcorrection

(38:02):

And I think hopefully I see it. I am supportive of it. There’s a moving back to a family-centric approach to parenthood where all of us in the family have needs, all of us in the family, our whole, whole full people with our needs and our desires and our preferences and our fears and our wishes, and our capacity to tolerate disappointment.

Gayane (38:30):

Yes, exactly. I was going to say that is most importantly, it’s okay to be disappointed. It’s okay for your kids to be disappointed, and life is full of disappointments. So I think we forget that our biggest role is to prepare them to be resilient, to be able to deal with disappointments because everything we’re struggling with now is because no one gave us the tools to deal with disappointments. So we are constantly faced with challenges and disappointments and bumps on the road, and no one has the tools to know what to do with it. And that’s just for me, that’s my philosophy. I’m by no means near, I’m getting it. I’m trying. That’s my goal is to make sure that he’s equipped to deal with disappointments. And of course, in this stage of parenting, he’s totally tantruming and crying over every disappointment, but I know we’ll get there because that’s something that I think that’s what we all struggle with is we never had the tools and we’re just now learning later in life, and I always say with all my clients, for 30 plus years, you’ve been functioning a certain way. It’s going to take time for you to unlearn that behavior and learn a new way to cope with things, so give yourself some grace.

Dr. Sarah (39:53):

Yeah, no, I think that’s such good advice. It’s funny how self-sacrifice and martyrdom and parenthood can really be in some ways understood as a distress intolerance. I sacrifice myself because it’s easier to cut off my needs than to tolerate the disappointment in my child in the moment, and that’s really hard. We have this internal narrative possibly that if my child is upset, I’m doing it wrong. I’m not being…

Gayane (40:28):

The best.

Dr. Sarah (40:29):

…the ever devoted mother, and maybe that’s why we have to dismantle that I can only take care of myself if I can tolerate others being disappointed in my choice in that moment and that that’s okay.

Gayane (40:47):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great way to put it.

Dr. Sarah (40:53):

And developmentally appropriate expectations too. It is totally appropriate for a three-year-old to be upset that you’re not taking them with you on your date.

Gayane (41:06):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (41:08):

So I think too, because all of our perfectionist moms like, okay, I got it. I’m going to build my frustration tolerance and I’m going to build their frustration tolerance, and so I’m going to tell them I’m going to leave. And the goal, the way I’m a good mom is if I can teach them to be resilient and to not be upset when I go. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let’s be really clear. It’s just for you to go.

Gayane (41:32):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (41:34):

It’s just for you to tolerate your own distress and go, and then your kid is going to be upset and you’re not failing if they’re not upset or if they are unable to tolerate that.

Gayane (41:47):

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I always think of the saying of all feelings are okay, it’s the behavior, and that’s not, and in moms, the behavior is like, oh, feeling the feeling and then not going and doing what they want to do. And in kids, of course, it’s the hitting the, if they’re screaming, but to some extent it’s age appropriate. And eventually they’ll build the skills and tools to be able to take a deep breath and take some time for themselves and tolerate those feelings. But any emotion is okay, it’s their emotion and they’re allowed to have it. And it’s okay if the mom also experiences guilt, but she doesn’t let the guilt be in the driver’s seat and just lets it be a passenger a lot healthier.

Dr. Sarah (42:38):

Yeah. No, I feel like these are really helpful reminders. I’ll say this on the podcast, like, oh yeah, martyrdom and self-sacrifice and challenge the mom guilt. And then of course, just the other day I was planning out the schedule for the next week. My kids are off school a bunch, and I’m like, oh man, they’re going to be home this day, but I have to work, so I should really cancel all these things so that I could be with them. And I really, oh, it’s like, oh, but that’s going to be really tricky to move that and just, I can’t not hear the voice. The voice of the guilt doesn’t go away just because you challenge it and just because you can say, oh, I know what that is. It doesn’t go away.

Gayane (43:27):

No, no.

Dr. Sarah (43:29):

And I will feel super guilty the whole time. My kids, it’s very hard. I work from home and if my kids are home when I’m home, it is so much harder for me to be fully in my work because I’m just battling guilt of not being upstairs while they’re home.

Gayane (43:44):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (43:45):

It doesn’t go away.

Gayane (43:47):

No, I think it makes us human. I’d be concerned if none of us felt guilt ever. Right. I think it makes us human maybe in some moments makes us even better moms at certain things, but if it’s getting in the way of you doing things for yourself, if it’s getting in the way of you being hard on yourself, what guilt does too, right. You’re not a good enough mom. That’s when it’s not helpful and it’s in the driver’s seat, so we’ve got to make it go back to the passenger seat.

Dr. Sarah (44:20):

Yeah. How do you help parents do that? What’s a strategy you’ve taught moms to if they notice the guilt and is driving the car?

Gayane (44:27):

Yeah. Well, one of the easiest way is, well, the metaphor helps to kind of put it into perspective, but one of the easiest ways just to acknowledge it, acknowledge the voice as guilt, rather it being your own inner self. And so saying something like, okay, I’m noticing the guilt part of me showing up, and I’m not going to let it get in the driver’s seat. It can go in the passenger seat. I can see it from the mirror, but I’m not going to let it make all these decisions for me and keep me from living my best authentic life, which is what it sometimes does.

(45:05):

So just acknowledging is a good place to start and talking to it in that sense. Like, okay, I see you. I hear you. I’m not going to let you cancel my girls night. I’m still going to go. You can be upset. And just having that kind of self-talk can be very helpful.

Dr. Sarah (45:22):

Yeah. It’s so funny how we can talk this way to our kids, but it’s really hard to talk to ourselves with that same kind of maternal love.

Gayane (45:33):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (45:34):

Yeah. That’s really helpful. Thank you so much. It’s really interesting talking with you. If people want to get in touch with you or connect with you, how can they do that? Where should we send them?

Gayane (45:48):

You can find me on my Instagram @therapywithgayane, and my website is therapywithgayane.com.

Dr. Sarah (45:55):

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was really lovely talking with you.

Gayane (46:00):

Same. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sarah (46:07):

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