Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions

(00:49):

Hello, welcome to another Beyond the Sessions segment of the securely attached podcast. Hello, Rebecca. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Rebecca (00:52):

I love being here.

Dr. Sarah (00:54):

We love having you here. So here is the struggle that one mom emailed me that she’s navigating, and it’s really relatable. I’ve definitely been there. I’m certain you have too. So it was like a very kind of broad topic she wants help with. She says she wants help with daycare transition and helping him, her son, realize once he’s there, he’s had a blast. But the morning slash dropoff is terrible.

Dr. Rebecca (01:21):

Yeah, there’s a complicated verbal tense structure there that leads me to believe that we’re operating above this little kid’s developmental level, realizing that once he’s there, he has a blast. I’m assuming we don’t know the age of this kid, but if they’re a baby or a toddler, this idea of expecting that to be the thing that’s going to help with drop off.

(01:47):

And ability to kind of hold this knowledge that, oh, when this happened yesterday and then I was there, I was good. And so now I’d have to remember that I’ll be there again. And then that’s not the way that we’re going to get this child to have an easier time with daycare drop off. It potentially can work for older kids, but even that’s hard. It’s sort of like, well, remember last time you had a shot, it didn’t hurt that much. It’s like, but right now I’m so nervous for my shot. And so I think it’s much more about generally how do we ease a child’s drop off to daycare, which can be really, really hard.

(02:29):

I think so much is about, and I think about this and talk about this all the time, about a parent’s own level of calm in those moments because it is really hard for your child whether or not they have a great time when you leave. And I think that’s a sign that it’s potentially a great daycare and it’s the right choice for your family. And it’s notable and important that the difficulty at dropoff passes. And I think if you have a child where you hear that that’s not the case and they’re having a really, really hard time all day long, I think that puts this in a different category. But if we’re talking about a kid who really, really has a difficult time with goodbye and then is able to soothe themselves and enjoy the day, then I think it’s about practicing that which means that you’re going to sort of keep doing it.

(03:20):

It’s about all the things that people have probably heard, but we can talk about again, but transitional objects and the Daniel tiger, mommy or daddy comes back song. But it’s also most importantly about you recognizing that your child is safe. They are in distress because they don’t want to say goodbye. And so they feel like they’re being chased by that proverbial bear. Their system is in fight or flight. You actually know that’s not true. You know that you’re leaving them with safe people in a safe place and your nervous system can reflect that calm rather than picking up on your child’s panic. And as you do that each day, I see you’re so upset. I know goodbyes are so hard, validating your child’s experience and also saying, I know you’ll get through it. I will miss you too. I will see you later. I love you. And that simultaneous kind of validating their experience as real plus the emphasis on the coping and the handling it and your knowledge that you wouldn’t be suggesting that your child get through something that was genuinely dangerous, I think is the way to do it. And it tends to get better.

Dr. Sarah (04:43):

And I also think there’s this idea that I know so many parents hold this and it makes so much sense why, but that if I can get my child to be happier at the drop off, then it’s better I’ve succeeded in leaving, then I can leave. So then we have this urge in the moment to try to get them to be happy about the drop off in order for us to leave, which then looks like us staying and negotiating and lingering and doing a lot of fixing it, dragging out the goodbye because we have it in our mind that I don’t have permission to go unless they are settled. And that is, it’s very counterintuitive for a parent who feels overwhelmed by seeing their child in distress at leaving to say, okay, it’s perfectly for me to exit while they are in distress that I’m not doing some type of damage to exit while they’re in distress.

(06:01):

And obviously if you don’t fully believe that this daycare location that he is in a place where he’s going to be cared for and taken care of and that you’re not really super comfortable with them, leaving him with them and exiting, that’s something you really have to look at. But assuming you feel like this is a safe place for him to be and that you trust that these teachers can help him process the distress without you there, then you actually don’t have to make him okay before you exit. And that’s hard. It’s really hard to feel like you can, it’s just hard to walk away from your kid when they’re really upset.

Dr. Rebecca (06:56):

And I think that’s the balancing act is kind of validating that your child’s distress is real, but it’s not based in fact, and therefore you don’t have to say to protect them. So it’s not that your distress is not real. It’s not like I’m going to say, oh my gosh, what’s the big deal? You go here every day, you love these people. You’re absolutely acknowledging that for them, this is real, this is big, and you are not colluding with them that this is actually a tragic distress in catastrophe and therefore I can’t leave because this feeling is as bad as it feels. Actually. I know as your parent that you are safe and that this feeling is something that you can handle and get through. And that’s where the kind of leaving comes in.

Dr. Sarah (07:48):

And I do think we talk a lot on this podcast when we’re navigating challenging moments with our kids that there’s what we do in the moment and there’s also what we do outside of the moment that’s really important. So obviously we just talked a lot about what we can do in the moment that validating their feelings and communicating that confidence that they can cope. Managing our own regulation in the moment, our own fears, our own worries, and challenging those enough and regulating self-regulating enough that we can exit with some confidence, leaving them with a safe place, done that due diligence and we feel that way. But then outside of the moment, I actually think there’s a bunch of other things that you can do to help relieve some distress around daycare. And some of it’s just practicing. The more we get through the distress and go have a good day, he’s having a blast.

(08:44):

The more he does internalize that narrative and think of daycare as a place where he has a lot of fun, that can also help. And one of the ways that can help facilitate that is to, in calm, connected moments, maybe your daycare sends you pictures of him playing and maybe you can pull up some of those pictures and tell stories about the different kids in his daycare or the games that he plays or things he does, activities they do or a teacher that he cares about, and create a ritual around looking over the photographs and telling these positive narratives and helping him internalize. Because Rebecca, your point at the very beginning of this episode is really well taken. Helping him to realize that in a distressed moment there’s a positive outcome on the other side of it is very, very hard. And especially for a really young child to be able to project into the future that is really difficult, especially when distressed. However, when they’re not distressed, it’s a little bit easier to do that. And so practicing thinking about school as this positive place, internalizing these narratives of the fun that I have and the relationships that I’m building, it’s a seed you have to, water doesn’t just immediately turn into a plant, but it’s a good thing to practice.

(10:14):

I also think sometimes practicing separations in advance, like rehearsals. I recently did an episode with Eileen Henry on getting kids to kind of get more comfortable sleeping in their beds, right? Toddlers or older kids who come in your bed in the middle of the night and how do we reset and get them to sleep in their rooms throughout the whole night? And she talked about a dress rehearsal for this new expectation. And I think that there’s a great episode, so if you want more details on how a dress rehearsal might go, obviously that’s in the context of a sleep routine. But the same idea, it’s like a tricky separation requires sometimes a little bit of practice in the not hot moment where we’re actually having to separate. And so those are some things that you can do outside of the moment to build some tolerance for it or some confidence around it for your kid. Do you have any other ideas in terms of outside of the moment, things we could do?

Dr. Rebecca (11:20):

Yeah, I think, again, a lot depends on the age of the kid in some ways, but I think talking up the daycare providers, like doing something funny and then saying, who else is so funny? Bonnie, the woman at your daycare, Bonnie is so funny. She makes the funniest face, Ooh, I can’t wait to ask her tomorrow to make a funny face. I think one of the things that we’re trying to model for our kids is that we can hold both places in mind.

(11:50):

So the same way that we are trying to help our child hold us in their minds and their hearts when they’re in daycare, we can also model that. We can hold them, we can hold daycare in mind when they’re not with us, and we can show them that by kind of talking about daycare when as you said, by creating that narrative of looking at pictures and whatever, but also kind of talking about the attributes of the people that work there. And similarly, when you get to drop off or you get to pick up having a worm and kind and lovely conversation with the, it might be if everybody’s picking up at the same time and they’re frazzled and they’re handing back all the pumped milk and whatever, that’s not the time. But our kids are always looking to us for how to engage with the world.

(12:32):

And if we’re clearly showing that we feel very comfortable and affectionate toward the people taking care of our child all day, that will transfer. If we are harried and rushed and frazzled and not particularly comfortable with them and not particularly kind toward them, they won’t necessarily receive that message that these are people that we really, really trust. Even if we, for us, it’s like the proof is in the pudding where I’m leaving you with them. Obviously I trust them, but if they don’t see what that trust looks like, that you are calm and smiling and warm and friendly, they may not fully be able to internalize that. And that’s hard because pick up and drop off can be frazzled times of the day.

Dr. Sarah (13:15):

And especially nowadays, a lot of daycares. I mean, I think obviously during the pandemic there was a lot of limits to how much parents could come into the classroom. And obviously we’ve moved farther past that point now, but I think some of the, I’ve heard different childcare places have retained certain new structures to how much parents can come in and out of the classroom like that. Sometimes it’s not as easy anymore, I think to have that warm handoff, which is certainly worth talking to your daycares about, right? If you’re thinking about daycares or childcare places, that’s a good question in my opinion, to be asking places, what is the process for dropping our kids off or picking them up and how much interaction does the parent have with the teachers in the classroom? Or is it like everyone gets kind of brought out to a main space and the parents come and they give you your kid and they say off you go goodbye. Or is the parent coming into the classroom and setting them down? And for some kids that can be harder because if the parent’s deeply inside the classroom, it’s a lot harder to say goodbye when they’re right there. For some kids, that’s a little bit easier. So again, it’s like you kind of have to figure out what works for your kid, but also what does the school allow and how do they handle goodbyes if they’re picking up their kid and saying like, oh, don’t cry, it’s no big deal, let’s go play over here.

(15:00):

Versus even just the single validation of it’s so hard to say goodbye, mommy will be back. Okay, now let’s go play over here. It’s totally okay to distract little kids. It’s not like a sign of your daycare doesn’t get it. It’s just are they able to also name the feeling for the kid and say, it is hard. You don’t want mommy to go, I understand and I’m here to help you. How can I help you? What would you like to do to?

Dr. Rebecca (15:28):

And if you are sending your child to a daycare where you have heard providers say, oh, it’s no big deal, mommy will be back later. That also may be okay. There’s no kind of one comment that’s going to make or break your child’s experience of daycare. And again, I think we underplay our kids’ resilience. They may have a daycare provider who doesn’t really name feelings because that’s the best one you have in your community and you like it. But for that, and that’s fine. They can get that. If you’re listening to this podcast, I assume that’s important to you. So do that at home. There’s not necessarily a perfect childcare situation out there, whether it’s daycare or a nanny. And you are going to hear providers say things to your kids that you wouldn’t say to your kids, and that’s okay. You get to parent your child in the way that you want.

(16:19):

And not every person that your child interfaces with has to do that in the exact same way. And it’s probably healthy for our kids when they don’t in some ways because they get used to different styles or they get used to, this is a warm and safe person who doesn’t really have patience for me when I cry, when mom leaves, and that’s okay. I don’t want to be too black and white about it or too kind of, oh my gosh, I heard the provider say it’s no big deal that I’m leaving. And goodbyes are a big deal. And I believe in, again, it’s like I believe in gentle parenting and I believe in this parent. It’s like, yes, and your child has a clean and safe and lovely place to go each day with perhaps someone that hasn’t read all the books. And that’s okay.

Dr. Sarah (17:04):

That’s a very good point. That is very well taken. I appreciate that perspective. Sometimes I will go to that place on when I talk about this of what I would love to see, but I do think it’s important to explicitly spell out, you might not see this and that’s still not a problem.

Dr. Rebecca (17:25):

And if you see someone say, shut up, stop crying, your mom will be back. That’s one thing, right? By all means you’re looking for a warm and loving caregiver, but that can really take different forms. And I think there’s a certain way that we may over-interpret or overweight a perfectly lovely, wonderful, tuned in caregiver’s words at one moment in time that we happen to witness.

Dr. Sarah (17:51):

Yes, very true. And going back to this idea of daycare transitions, I think another thing to think about in terms of what we’re sort of talking about here is to be in communication with your teacher. If they are approaching drop off separations in a different way than you are or in a way that isn’t facilitating the process in your opinion, you definitely can have a conversation with them and say like, Hey, we’ve been doing it this way. I’m realizing it’s not working that well. Could we try this? This is a different approach trying. I had one of my clients was saying how when she was able, she was at a daycare and when she would drop off her daughter, the teacher would pick her up as a young, very young kid and she would pick her up, she’d take her from mom, physically, mom would walk in the daycare, the teacher would open up her arms and pick up the baby and take her, and she switched daycares. And at the new daycare, the teacher was busy or doing other things or didn’t come to physically take the child. So she would walk in the classroom and set the child down and then say goodbye.

(19:15):

Neither of those two things are good slash bad. It was different than what the baby had been used to and what mom had been used to. And so it was like, can you talk to the teacher and say like, oh, when we come in, would it be possible for you, for me to give her to you instead of setting her on the ground? Not because one is better than the other, but because that’s what they were used to. And when we’re working on having a whole bunch of other things that the child’s getting used to, that was one variable we could control for. So it’s also just about being collaborative with your provider too and seeing what works and what they can and can’t do. And perhaps they have a reason for why they’re doing it a certain way, and maybe that’s like a dialogue, which is I think my point, you can always talk to your daycare provider and ask them for support or suggestions for the drop off. If it’s to this mom’s point, she’s saying, drop off is terrible. I’m sure the teacher is very aware that it’s terrible, right? She’s feeling it too, that the kid is highly distressed upon separating from the parent, like the teacher is aware and might have some ideas of what might help. So I always think it’s good to check in and talk with the teachers or the daycare providers too.

Dr. Rebecca (20:45):

Absolutely. I think the more of a team it can be. Same with teachers. I mean, I think whoever is with your kid during the day, if that’s someone that you can collaborate with, that’s always going to be a good thing.

Dr. Sarah (20:56):

Yeah. Well, I hope that some of these strategies are helpful and definitely let us know what you try and how they work. And have a wonderful day, everybody.

Dr. Rebecca (21:10):

Thank you. Great talk as always.

Dr. Sarah (21:13):

Bye.

(21:15):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.