Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:43):

Hello. Welcome back. We have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg with us beyond the sessions segment of the securely attached podcast, and I’ve got a listener question to read to you. Are you ready?

Dr. Rebecca (00:56):

I am ready. Bring it on.

Dr. Sarah (00:58):

Okay. First of all, super glad you’re here. I missed you.

Dr. Rebecca (01:00):

Always a pleasure. Oh, I miss you so much.

Dr. Sarah (01:03):

I know. Okay, so this mom writes in. Hi ladies. My son three has a best bud who he shares such a loving relationship with his pal’s. Parents are our best friends as well. While we love their love for each other, his buddy doesn’t have very structured parenting and consequences. When my son is around him, my son mirrors his friend’s behaviors and seems to have blinders on about our rules. He will not listen to me about limits, reminders of boundaries, et cetera. An example, we practice often at home that bathroom words are only used in the bathroom, not in conversation. For fun, his friend uses pee pee and poopoo constantly to be funny and my son will slip into repeating them over and over again when in his friend’s presence. What can we do with our son to help reinforce his listening even in exciting friendship situations? Would you suggest any sort of conversation with our friends? We want to respect their different parenting style and maintain all the friendships, but just with a bit more discipline behavior from our son. Thanks. How was that for you to listen to that? I saw your No one can see Rebecca’s face as she’s hearing these. I get to, but tell me.

Dr. Rebecca (02:22):

Oh man, you’re calling me out, Sarah. I think what I heard, so just a meta comment first, I think the question is a really important one. What do we do when our friends’ families or our kids’ friends’ families or our friend’s kids have different rules than we do? But I think you probably then saw my face respond when the thing at hand in this particular scenario was the potty talk with threes. Because at me, with the understanding that all families feel differently, that is quite a normative developmental stage that three-year-olds go through. And I have found in my own work and my own parenting that putting limits and rules around it around that particular thing tends to actually make it worse.

(03:18):

We’ve talked, I think on various episodes about how the types of things that we believe in giving consequences for versus not. And I believe for all three of us, when Emily’s been here, that was sort of in the not category, but I think the larger issue of what to do when there’s a family that you really get along well with who parents different from you differently is an important one. I love that this kiddo has such a close friendship. I smiled when now you’re making me think about all my facial expressions. I smiled at that first. He’s got a best bud that’s just awesome. A three-year-old best bud. I remember going on family trips or outings when my kids were this age and we needed to have conversations, what does your family do about screen time? What does your family do about snacks? Because there is an understanding that when two families come together, it would be shocking if everyone was exactly the same. And so I think this is less of a, I’m not at all surprised that this little guy kind of falls into his friend’s behaviors in part because those are the forbidden behaviors.

(04:38):

And now I’m just commenting on all my facial expressions and general thoughts that I forget the actual question is the question like what to do?

Dr. Sarah (04:47):

Well, so to be fair, there are multiple questions in here for sure. And there’s even questions that I want to answer that she’s not explicitly asking, is it developmentally appropriate for my kid to start to mimic their friend’s behaviors? And to me that answer is not a sign. Seeing that in a kid is not a sign that, ooh, they’re being highly influenced, but that it’s really developmentally typical because we’re seeing, and even at three, it’s still even a little early because it’s only going to get more and more and more pronounced that their developmental orientation towards peers is going to become more and more and more of not just a central focus of their attention, but an informant to their behaviors and their sense of self. Right now you’ve got a three-year-old, right? You’re pretty used to being the core thing, the core element that informs their…

Dr. Rebecca (05:48):

The core influence or model. You’re the model.

Dr. Sarah (05:49):

You’re the model, and you have the most control over their environment and what they’re exposed to and who they are paying attention to and what they’re taking in. And you’re shaping so much of their behavior zero through three. And as kids move into that 4, 5, 6 space, that influence is going to diminish and be replaced by peer influence. It’s not going to go away. Parental influence is very significant throughout development, but you’re going to contend with more stuff coming in. So one, I just wanted to sort of lay that foundation of the question she’s not explicitly asking, but I am hearing is this normal? Is this something I need to worry about? And I would say it’s really normal and not necessarily something you need to worry about and buckle up because it’s going to get bigger and stronger as they get older, which is good to know about, good to be prepared for. I also think a question she’s explicitly asking is about this example she’s giving about potty talk. But to your point, Rebecca, I think there’s a meta question, which is how do we approach these kinds of differences? I don’t know. One thing I also thought was when you were saying, oh, I’m so glad he has this friend that’s so warming and delightful and focusing on that as a parent, making sure we’re zooming out and saying big picture here. What are our biggest, how much of this is a threat and how much of this is a strong protective thing and a benefit? I think with the benefits outweighing the potential threats here, we might be able to also kind of dismiss things that we might otherwise consider threats to our parenting.

Dr. Rebecca (07:39):

Yeah, I think that was where I went a little bit was like, this all sounds so great, your kid has a best friend and you’re also best friends with the parents. And so you guys all get to hang out and have fun and okay, so your kid says pee pee and poopy a little bit. I dunno, I guess I went to this place, and I don’t mean to sound dismissive because I love these honest and vulnerable parent questions and we’re all flying blind, but I think I went to this place of like, oh my gosh, I know so many families that would die for that. That just sounds glorious. And I think what you said, Sarah, is really on point, which is not being worried about per se, but being prepared for the idea of peer influence or when kids are older. Peer pressure is a really important one.

(08:27):

And being able to talk to our kids about how different families have different rules or do things differently. And I don’t know that at least in this case with these kids’ ages being three, that I would talk much more about how hard it is to spend time with little Dennis and then come home and have the rules change again. I don’t know that this family’s going to do a great job of setting any kind of for their son when the other child is not going to get it. In other words, I don’t think the parent is asking, nor do I think the answer is, well, I’m going to continue to give my kid those consequences even when their friend is saying those words left. Right. But I think a better conversation is it’s hard because when we’re with him, his family does things differently and so things get a little different.

(09:18):

Things get a little wild with those words, and when we’re back home, we have to practice the way we do it again. And that’s tricky, but what a great message, right? It’s called code switching. It’s called being able to say the F word when you’re older at home and not being able to say the F word at school. And if you slip, there’s a consequence. I mean, it’s an age where kids are starting to learn that things can be different with different people. And I think it’s an opportunity for conversation about that. It’s going to come up, as you said, in myriad ways as they get older, some harmless and some concerning. And so as a parent to be aware of it and to prepare for it as distinct from to worry about it and perhaps miss the forest for the trees.

Dr. Sarah (10:10):

Yes. Yes. I so strongly agree with that. I think that’s good. It’s like a helpful anchor for a parent. I think one of our worries as a parent is if I let this go, will it snowball? Will I lose all the traction I’m gaining at home, working on certain expectations of behaviors? And if we go to this house and is this play date going to unravel all the work that I’m doing in instilling a particular set of values or a particular skill around inhibiting some behaviors? And I think it’s also important to remember you have so much influence over your child. Yes, peers do. And we were just talking about how that’s going to grow. But really at three, you are a very core influence still and you, it’s helpful to remind yourself, we can go places and there’s going to be stuff that contradicts some of the lessons I’m working to impart on my child. And those don’t carry the same weight as the things that we do in our home regularly and revisit and revisit and revisit. But I think big picture, what are our bigger goals? To your point, understanding context and understanding tolerating the frustration of having to do a different kind of behavior at home than maybe flies at this friend’s house is a skill that is actually just as important for this kid to practice.

Dr. Rebecca (11:50):

Yeah, and I think it’s clear from the way the question is phrased. I think, I don’t want to read too much into it, but that the parent writing the question, isn’t that worried there is an awareness because there is such a thing as hanging out with a family where you decide it’s crossed the line.

(12:10):

I actually think this family’s values really differ from our own, and I’m not comfortable with the code switching. It doesn’t feel like code switching. It feels like being around people that we don’t actually really want to be around. And that’s an okay decision too, but being thoughtful as a family, when is it that and when is it not that it sounds, from the way the question is phrased in how complimentary she is of this kid and Ms. Barens that she’s not there. And so there are these little kind of in-between things all the time. Again, it’s like, wow, that family lets this kid have a ton of screen time. So when we’re over there, they’re dressed in front of the iPad all the time. Or wow, when I’m at my in-laws, they sure have a lot of candy. Is it going to be hard for my kid tomorrow when he asks to have candy 17 times? And I say, no, the answer is, it might be, but what’s the choice not spending time with grandparents or helping your kid navigate things that can be difficult or confusing and knowing, as you said, that ultimately what happens in your home is the thing that’s going to have the most influence over them.

Dr. Sarah (13:19):

Yeah. Another thing that I think is helpful too, potentially to this parent would be to remember the fact that our kids’ regulation, she was asking what can we do to help reinforce our sons listening even in exciting friendship situations and generally just being, getting more disciplined behavior from our son. And I think really valid question, probably most parents’ questions half the time is related to that, how do I get my kid to listen to me even when it’s in a situation where they’re having a hard time listening? And I think to answer that, it can be very helpful to remember that regulation is a precursor to listening and following directions and inhibiting behaviors and learning new skills. And it doesn’t always feel obvious, but excitement is a, it’s a type of dysregulation too. We can get excited, dysregulated. Dysregulated isn’t always coming out of angry or frustrated or those more negative effects. We’ve all seen kids who are super excited until they hit that point where it just starts to devolve and fall apart because they’ve hit that point of dysregulation.

Dr. Rebecca (14:49):

Well just picture a party like a 3-year-old birthday party that is not a bunch of regulated nervous systems right there.

Dr. Sarah (14:57):

And we have to remember, we want developmentally appropriate expectations of our kids. And when our kid is really excited, a lot of their inhibition kind of goes out of their access. They lose access to some of their inhibition and their problem solving and their sort of weighing the pros and cons and their ability to stop, listen to you and do what you say. That doesn’t mean that we don’t expect our kids to be able to do that. It just means we want to kind of work with their brains and bodies not against it. If my kid’s getting super excited at a play date and starting to do things that I don’t want them to do, and then I want them to remember they have behavioral expectations around that. They know in order for me to get my kid to get back to their toolbox, I have to go and regulate my kid a little bit.

(15:50):

I need to help them take a small break from the excitement. Maybe I need to pull ’em aside and not necessarily even in a punitive way, but just a check-in like, Hey, how’s it going? Engage with them a little bit, co-regulate, bring them down a little bit and then check in and say like, Hey, I heard you saying some things that I don’t really like the sound of that. Is there a different way you could say what you’re trying to say or whether or not we’re going to get into what the content of the stuff is? Assume for discussion’s sake, whatever it is that they’re saying or doing is something you want to stop. Just expecting them to stop when they’re at a 7, 8, 9, 10 level of excitement is unrealistic. We have to pull ’em aside, co-regulate down to at least a 4, 5, 6 to be able to get them to remind themselves what the expectations are, inhibit certain impulses. So that’s more of just a generic way of thinking about getting our kids to cooperate and follow instructions in an excited, exciting context. We have to understand that the excitement can pull them away from their toolbox and we actually want to help them access it. And the best way to do that.

Dr. Rebecca (17:06):

Well, and the other thing that does, which I think is important is take them away from the force that’s working against us, which is the reinforcement of their peer because whatever it is they’re doing, and I can think for my son, it’s like climbing all over furniture or making giant farting noises or whatever they’re doing. Their friend thinks it’s the greatest thing they’ve ever seen, and so they’re laughing hysterically or clapping. And so part of going over and helping your friend regulate is also change of setting, change of scene. The other friend is going to get bored of watching mom talk to my son, so he’s going to go do his thing. You’re sort of interrupting the whole scenario that is perpetuating the behavior.

Dr. Sarah (17:47):

And I think that can be a useful tool in your toolbox because we’ve all been on play dates where it’s fun and exciting and then all of a sudden one of our kids does something where we’re like, oh my God, I cannot believe that just happened. I want to be invisible right now and crawl under her a rock because I can’t believe my kid just did X, Y, or Z. And then we can get hot and we can go into our urgent parenting mode, our panicked, everyone’s watching me parenting mode. And so if you are in a situation where you really need your kid to come back down and use some skills, just remembering that excitement is a dysregulation. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just you got to kind of know where regulation levels are.

(18:38):

And if you know it’s a pattern, helping our kids plan ahead and remember what the goals and expectations are ahead of time and what the roadblocks sometimes are. So if you are going to a friend’s house where it gets a little bit out of control after a certain point, I think it’s helpful to give your kid a little bit of a preview and say, Hey, I know sometimes when we go to this friend’s house, it’s really fun. And then after a little while you guys get so excited that it starts to, all of a sudden you guys are tearing apart the sofas and you’re making just a huge mess, or you’re saying things that are not appropriate or could hurt someone’s feelings. What can we do ahead of time to make sure that that part doesn’t happen? What’s a plan if it starts to get too exciting and you guys are getting too out of control?

(19:29):

Is there something I can say to help you remember what our goal is or something? Just give your kid a heads up for a three-year-old. They’re probably not going to remember any of what you preview at them, but it’s still good to get in the habit of it. And then you can remind them, Hey, remember we were talking in the car about exactly this happening, so I’m going to remind you, you can do this or this or this, but you can’t do this developmentally appropriate kind of expectations, but also language with our kids for three. It’s hard.

Dr. Rebecca (20:00):

And then the number one golden rule of all child play dates, which is quit while you’re ahead.

Dr. Sarah (20:06):

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca (20:07):

Which can be really hard, frankly. I mean, I’m sort of saying that in jest, but when you’re friends with the parents, it’s like, Ooh, let’s have a really long play date. Then we just get to hang out. It’s our play date. We get to hang out. And isn’t it easier doing parenting when it’s not just us at home? It’s you guys too. And then you sort of notice that your kids are getting a little dysregulated, but you push it because it’s nice not to be whatever it is. Again, the best thing you can do is a play date is notice how well it’s going and then leave while it’s still going well.

Dr. Sarah (20:38):

Yes, I have a little framework, like a cheat sheet for play dates, and it’s the four S’s, short, sweet, semi-structured and supervised.

(20:50):

Keep them short and on a high note, that’s the sweet part and semi-structured. Give them some type of thing to focus on, some type of semi-structured activity to do just to curb some of this going, running all over the place and kind of moving into that totally chaos mode. And then supervised, meaning you keep one eye on them and you’re not necessarily fully disengaged and schmoozing with your friends. Now, that’s a very specific kind of play date. I don’t think that’s realistic for every type of play date, especially if we want to have a play date in tandem with our kids because we’re going over to our friend’s house. This isn’t the type of thing I’m talking about, but if you want to work on the skill of helping your kid kind of navigate play dates in a more regulated way and have more success with them in general, practicing these specific types of play dates more often can be a really helpful way to build those muscles.

Dr. Rebecca (21:54):

Absolutely. I agree. Everything you said.

Dr. Sarah (21:57):

Amazing. Well, I hope this is helpful. Thank you so much for writing in this question, and I hope that even if you are listening and you have a similar situation, that this was also a helpful way of taking a specific question and making it useful to a lot of different people who clearly go through stuff like this all the time. I know I do.

Dr. Rebecca (22:19):

A hundred percent. Absolutely. We are all in this.

Dr. Sarah (22:22):

Yes. All right. Talk soon. Bye. 

(22:26):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.