Beyond the Sessions is answering YOUR parenting questions! In this episode, Dr. Emily Upshur and I talk about…
- It can be tricky to maintain relationships when you’re in different stages of life from your friends and it’s common for some to atrophy after you become a parent.
- Unpacking all the feelings you may have about this: fear, guilt, grief, and more!
- Practical strategies for creating a simple routine that is easy for you to maintain, but will also allow you to keep these relationships from going too long without any check-ins.
- When you are changed by motherhood, you may slip into black and white thinking in regard to your friendships, we’ll offer you a perspective shift you can use to challenge that.
- How to check in with yourself so you can understand the root of your desires for connection, which will help you create realistic anchors that will actually meet your needs.
- Time management and scheduling hacks that can help you be intentional about protecting the time you do have.
- How to repair bonds with friends who may feel hurt, slighted, or abandoned by you.
ARE YOU A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL?
Go to upshurbren.com/IFSTraining to register for The Good Mom/Bad Mom Loop, a 3-hour workshop on 2/27 designed to teach professionals how to integrate Internal Family Systems concepts into maternal mental health services to provide improved support for moms.
ADDITIONAL PODCAST EPISODES YOU MAY LIKE:
🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about the science of “mom-rage” with Diana Winston
🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about identifying and managing your triggers with Dr. Amber Thornton
🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about finding balance with Chelsi Jo
🎧 Listen to my podcast episode about overcoming parental burnout
LEARN MORE ABOUT US:
- Learn more about Dr. Sarah Bren on her website and by following @drsarahbren on Instagram
- Learn more about Dr. Emily Upshur on to her website
Click here to read the full transcript
Dr. Sarah (00:02):
Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.
(00:41):
Hi, we got Dr. Emily Upshur here and we are going to answer another listener question. Welcome back Em.
Dr. Emily (00:50):
Good to be here.
Dr. Sarah (00:52):
Alright, you ready for the question?
Dr. Emily (00:54):
Yep. Ready.
Dr. Sarah (00:55):
This mom writes in. Hi, Dr. Sarah. I’d love to have you weigh in on something I’m struggling to navigate that I would guess a lot of other moms are dealing with too. I was the first in my friend group to have kids, and while I tried to maintain my relationships, it seems like I just got so busy with my first, and then I had a second not long after, and now I’m looking back five years later and feeling guilty that I haven’t made much of an effort. How do I rekindle those friendships? Now, I still don’t have tons of time, but I have a little bit more bandwidth that I’d like to start spending on friendships.
Dr. Emily (01:28):
Ooph. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah (01:30):
Yeah. I can solely lead to this. I could have written this too. I bet a lot of moms are shaking their head in solidarity right now.
Dr. Emily (01:39):
I think what’s relatable is it doesn’t even have to be like I’m the first that had kids. It could just be like I had kids and I got sucked into the vortex. And now what? I’ve been sort of in this very narrow land of caring for my children and trying to stay afloat. And if you are working outside of the home and balancing all those things or working inside of the home and balancing all those things, you’re really, it can be you’re in the weeds for a little while.
Dr. Sarah (02:05):
Yeah. It’s not lost on me that this bomb is riding in five years after her first kid. You don’t start coming up for air. I mean, I don’t know how far apart they are, but you really don’t start coming up for air until the last kid is three or four years old because you’re really in the thick of it until your youngest is a little bit more independent from you.
Dr. Emily (02:30):
And I think the thing that I’m the first in my friend group to have kids is important in that who are you hanging out with, right? You’re hanging out with people whose children are the same ages of yours often or of enough ages of yours. And so I do think that can be tricky if you’re at different stages of life from your friends or from other people that you’ve had long established relationships with, that that can be a transition, I think for everyone, the old friendships as well as yourself.
Dr. Sarah (03:06):
And it’s like this terrible catch point too, because when you do have this intense motherhood experience and you kind of go into your little cocoon of the family, you can feel super isolated. And then when you do have the bandwidth to actually reconnect with friends, there’s been atrophy potentially in some of those relationships. And it can double down on the sense of isolation that we might feel as a parent, how do I reconnect with people who I didn’t nurture those relationships for a while? And sometimes there’s repair that has to happen. Sometimes you just have to have the bravery to send that first, Hey, how you doing miss you? And it’s well received. But I think it depends too on what beating the relationships took in your absence over the last few years.
Dr. Emily (04:01):
Yeah. No, I think that’s absolutely true. I think you’re right. Extending an olive branch and giving it a try is probably the best first step. And I think you’re right. Sometimes that requires an actual repair stating that you’ve been in the vortex of your cocoon of your family and you’re really missing not having that and you miss the friendship and that you can even apologize for that lack of nurturing of that friendship all along long. And maybe some of your friends have started having children themselves and totally get it right. That’s a very viable possibility. And then there are other people that are at different phases of life and you might never line up. And I think that’s another piece.
Dr. Sarah (04:50):
Yeah, I think that’s a very good point. And this mom, she talks about feeling guilty and I think we should talk a little bit about guilt, but I also want to name another possible feeling, which is grief. Because we might be mourning the loss of these relationships in our lives. We might be afraid that they won’t come back to the way they used to be. And then I also think that that guilty feeling is really relatable to me of like, oh man, I didn’t check in on my friends. I didn’t say happy birthday to them for five years. I didn’t ask them how they were doing. I mean, I literally could have written this question because I feel so, and also as a neurodiverse mom, when I’m in something, I am in it and the rest of the world disappears. And so for me too, and if anyone can relate to that piece of when you do, I think the vortex of motherhood is very real no matter what kind of brain you have. But if you have ADHD, you really can lose any sense of the world around you outside of the vortex.
Dr. Emily (06:07):
I think it’s also true with regard to how much support you have right there is you might really be juggling a lot and have less family around or less financial security or less support to be able to have that bandwidth that she’s referring to in this question. The small amount of time that you have, how do you utilize that the best? And I think that’s a really important part of this question. What’s the highest, we talk about this all the time, Sarah, you and I, what is the highest and best use of your time and how can you optimize that? Is it potentially just texting your friend? You can do that at three o’clock in the morning when your kid’s up sick or is it trying to engage in a phone call or trying to, I always, for patients, I’m often talking about connecting your commute with calling a friend or something like marrying a daily habit with a connection, which can help a little bit to make that a little bit more of a bridge to initiating some of those things. And it can become a routine That’s nice too for both you and you’re in a friendship.
Dr. Sarah (07:19):
Yeah. No, I think it’s interesting what you’re saying makes me realize there’s a couple pieces. What are the barriers? Identifying what our barriers might be, could be a really important start. One is bandwidth. The barrier to reaching out to friends may just be bandwidth. I don’t have enough to give to do anything extra another, in which case you need to address that first, right? I wouldn’t actually recommend doing a whole lot of relationship repair in that moment because you can’t maintain it. Even if you start it, if you text your friend, but you actually can’t at all hang out or have the bandwidth for conversations that it’s going to be a big drain. Wait until you have bandwidth to do it. Two, another barrier would be this guilt. The guilt can sometimes be paralyzing if I feel terrible that I haven’t reached out to someone, sometimes that can create a mountain out of a molehill, that avoidance can kick in like, Ugh, I can’t go there.
(08:12):
I don’t even want to have to have that conversation. I dunno how to start that conversation. The feeling of guilt is kind of overwhelming and inhibiting, so I just want to kind of do something else. If that’s a barrier, maybe we can unpack some ways to unpack the guilt a little bit and talk about how to push through that and heal some of those guilty feelings so that or process some of those guilty feelings that you can act if you want to. Another barrier that I’m thinking of would be what you’re saying, I don’t know where to start and some practical strategies for just like I do have the bandwidth. I know I want to have this, I’m motivated to reach out, but I don’t exactly know what to do or how to do it or how to fit it in. It’s like I have to kind of waken up those muscles again and maybe we can come up with some sort of practical strategies like you were saying for that. Do you want to unpack the guilt though first?
Dr. Emily (09:11):
Yeah, I mean I think the guilt is, we talk a lot about this in motherhood, a little bit of giving yourself a little bit of grace and allowing yourself forgiveness and intention. We talk about this all the time in psychotherapy, which is you weren’t intending to ditch your friends. Part of what happened was that you got sucked into in a really important phase of your life and probably something you really wanted for a long time. And so it’s okay to sort of nurture that, forgive yourself and sort of label that. I kind of blew it a little in this one place, but it also is okay, I can give myself a little bit of forgiveness. I think you’re absolutely right about the avoidance. It might feel really big to you and it might be on some of your friend’s radar or your peer’s radar, but it might not be as big and ominous as it is for you. So I think remembering perspective taking and putting those things in a sort of more realistic balance is really important.
Dr. Sarah (10:14):
Yeah, I think that’s helpful. We don’t want to project onto our friends our worst fears. It’s very possible that they will be very happy and relieved to see a text from you and might not immediately be consumed with all these thoughts that we’re afraid like, oh my God, they’re going to be so mad and it’s a reminder that I wasn’t there for the last three birthdays or whatever. Sometimes just reaching out and being reached out to just feels good.
Dr. Emily (10:47):
And I also think one of the barriers just with the guilt and stuff is I can’t be the old person I was before in these friendships. I’m not, not that most people are doing this. I’m not going to be out till three o’clock in the morning partying. I used to. Something along those lines. How can I have relationships with people where I have actually shifted? I have changed and I have shifted. And I think remembering that it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You still could do part, you can go out with your friends and leave earlier could, I think there’s a place of slicing it a little bit thinner to make it a thing that could be approachable to you and still work in your friendship without having to avoid, oh, I’m just not that person anymore. And sort of find something a little bit closer in the middle of that.
Dr. Sarah (11:40):
And I think to that point is we’ve evolved past, I mean, assuming these are friendships that you had before you had kids when you were perhaps at a different developmental stage. And if you’ve evolved in your developmental timeline past that point in your life, we can sometimes have this illusion that the expectation of our friends is that we go back and we’re that 20-year-old fun party or whatever college kid. And in reality, we have to remember that they’ve also evolved on their developmental timeline. They didn’t stop and freeze in time. They’ve continued to go and do all kinds of things in their life and grow up to whether or not they have kids. And they may also be like, I dunno, really, I want to be in bed by 11, want to go for a walk. And I just know I am so projecting onto this, but I am, I definitely want to go do healthier chiller things with people now than I did when I was before I had kids because I’m exhausted.
Dr. Emily (12:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah (12:46):
I get hangovers if I drink too much now.
Dr. Emily (12:50):
I think that’s absolutely right. And I can’t tell you how many people are in the morning. I really wanted to go out with you tonight and now it’s five o’clock and that feeling is gone. There is 0% of me that can handle that. So I think it’s also to your point, what is your bandwidth? What can you set up that’s realistic? Maybe it isn’t going out. Maybe it is a phone call, a FaceTime, a text message. I think that’s a really important, and having a little self-awareness and observance of that is really important. I am definitely a victim. I’ll be ready. I want to get out of this house. And then by that time it seems really daunting. So I think that there’s that too, right?
Dr. Sarah (13:37):
And I think that also speaks to this piece of going inward and checking in on your own when you are longing for a friend, longing for the connection, aware that you might feel like you miss a friend, but checking in what’s going on for you in that moment and what would really meet that need you have. I might notice that when my kids are like, everything’s going crazy and I’m getting 50,000 things at me every minute. I have zero bandwidth. And then when things calm down and I’m actually able to tap into my more real sort of real self that’s not just putting out fires, but I’m with myself. I might notice I’m feeling lonely or I’m longing for connection. That to me is a matter of overstimulation getting in the way of us being aware that we actually want connection. And so being more intentional about finding real anchors for that connection that aren’t just reactive, not just reactive to a feeling of loneliness, but to be able to say more, zoom out and say like, okay, am I actually perhaps longing for more connection with my peer relationships? Can I have more of an intentional and proactive approach to creating opportunities for connection with my friends? Instead of it just being like 3:00 AM when my kid wakes me up and I’m all alone, I’m feeling very lonely. And then I want have, I dunno. I just feel like there’s a difference between reactive outreach because that’s harder to sustain and intentional, proactive outreach.
Dr. Emily (15:21):
I think you’re talking about something really important, which is the checking in with yourself and not, I think not being reactive, but also I feel like the amount of insight and transparency you can have in your communications with your relationships really helps. Again, if you can say, Hey, I really want to get out of this house. I know later I’m not going to want to, so you guys, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to make a date for five to 7:00 PM and then we’ll be done. I think that that feels realistic or you’re tapping in and you’re communicating that. That communication I think is really important because then you’re going to be able to meet people where it works for them too. If your friends are like, that’s lame. I don’t want to do that. Or if they’re like, awesome, we’ll meet you before we go out to dinner. I think that just helps. That insight that you have on where you’re at in your ability to convey that to others is also really valuable in your ability to find the areas where it’s realistic and achievable to connect with others.
Dr. Sarah (16:31):
And I think what we’ve just been talking about in this last couple moments speaks to that third piece that I was mentioning of, okay, what are some concrete strategies for actual creating connection, doing outreach, finding sustainable way to do it that’s tuned into your own bandwidth and your own boundaries, but also pushing through a little bit of the avoidance or the wanting to like, okay, I’m tired now I want to go curl up in my jammies and maybe actually I’m going to push through because I am aware that in the larger pattern of things, I want to proactively anticipate moments of loneliness or isolation. And so we can avoid the contact that might actually be really beneficial to us because it’s harder, it requires more energy, more effort, more planning, more follow through. It is easier to just kind of get in your jammies and scroll on your phone.
Dr. Emily (17:26):
That’s right. Yeah, I agree.
Dr. Sarah (17:27):
So what are some more, if you’re working with a mom who’s feeling lonely and you’re trying to help her build up some strategies for connecting with friends, what are some of the things that you’ve found helpful?
Dr. Emily (17:39):
I mean, I think a couple of the one I mentioned before, which is essentially making it a part of your routine. If there’s a way you can make some of it a part of your routine, whether that’s calling your friend as you go to pick up for your kids and saying, Hey, I have 15 minutes. Can we connect?
Dr. Sarah (17:57):
Right? Or while you’re walking a dog, if there’s, yeah, pairing it with something that you’re already doing.
Dr. Emily (18:03):
And something you and I love to do, which is like, all right, we debrief on Wednesdays. It’s our routine. There’s a very high likelihood that if it’s a Wednesday, you and I are going to have a quick bite to eat and debrief and connect. And that’s something that we can sort of count on. Also, people know that, so our families know that. So they sort of know, oh, mom’s not. And again, for you and I, it’s like mom’s not going to be home until seven 30. It’s an ability to do that. And then I guess, so the routinizing, and I guess the other thing is a little bit of folds into this, which is a little bit of protecting the time. I don’t know that you need to build in more per se. I think that feels daunting into that add in. But for example, I already have childcare till 7:00.
(18:51):
So if I’m a working parent, I’m like, I’m going to duck out of work at six and grab a quick bite to eat or a coffee or a tea or a drink with a friend because I have 30 minutes before I need to relieve my childcare or whatever the timeframe is. But sort of protecting that time and being cognizant of that, right? Sometimes I’m very aware I’m not going to schedule a consult on a Wednesday evening because that isn’t a part. That would sort of cut into my sort of connection with others time. And I think that would be the other tip I have.
Dr. Sarah (19:26):
And I think for working parents who already have childcare built in, lean into that right plan for socializing inside of the window where you have coverage, because I think it can feel a lot less overwhelming and you can counteract some of the guilt of the other guilt of being away from your family or doing something for yourself, which we should also make a note.
Dr. Emily (19:50):
Yes.
Dr. Sarah (19:50):
Challenge that guilt. Honor that it exists. Notice it put a hand on your hearts and feeling real guilty about that, but not, it does not actually need to be something we feel guilty about. I think especially mothers are like, oh my god, time away from my kids is cheating. No, but also that can be a barrier. So lean into when you actually have coverage to just sidestep that. But for parents who are don’t have childcare, who are the primary care provider, it could be super hard, super isolating, and really, really difficult to socialize, especially if you are trying to socialize with friends who don’t have kids or don’t have kids your age. And you can’t mix in the parenting with the socializing. And so for that, I really, really encourage you to call upon your village and do say, I’m going to give myself, maybe it’s one night a month, maybe it’s one afternoon a month, maybe it’s one Saturday morning, a month at least to start and just be like, that is my time and I’m going to find coverage for that time so that I can really be dedicated to giving myself some social permission. And I could fill it in any way I want. I could have a standing date with a friend, or I could just know that that’s my time to book things with friends. But give yourself protected social time. It’s a lot easier, I think, too, to not want to crawl into bed with your jammies If you emotionally and mentally have, I’ve planned for, I know it’s coming. It takes a lot to go and do the thing work to socialize.
Dr. Emily (21:27):
And I would say I would just add onto that for the first couple of those protected times, low risk. Maybe you have nothing scheduled, but you’re getting into the habit of protecting that time. And I think that’s really important. Maybe it’s that you literally go to the grocery store by yourself during that time, but I do think it’s important to your right, anticipate I’m going to have this time and what does it feel like and how am I managing it? So keep on doing it. And even if you haven’t filled it yet with your social calendar.
Dr. Sarah (21:59):
And there’s one other piece that I feel like we should touch on, which is the repair piece. Because there might be friendships that truly have taken a hit with all this time apart, and there could be hurt feelings and there could be some, I think most of the time our fears aren’t realized that our friends are going to be pissed that we’ve been MIA for a little while. But I also know that that’s not always the case, and that actually can be really painful for the friend on the other side of that. And so I think we’ve done a good job of hopefully helping a parent to release themselves of some of feelings of guilt. But I also think that just because we can let go of feelings of guilt, that doesn’t mean that there might not be something to repair in terms of a friendship. So let’s just say hypothetically, Emily, you were working with someone who was like, I know that there’s some work to be done to make it right with my friend. What are some strategies for approaching that and offering a bid to repair?
Dr. Emily (23:05):
I mean, I always say falling on your sword, right? Validating that you disappear, validating the hurt, essentially validating that piece of, I really let you down. I disappeared into this and that wasn’t fair, and maybe that didn’t feel good to you, or sort of saying, and I don’t feel good about it, at least naming your own feelings around that. And I also think it’s a conversation, right? This is a dynamic, so what would it take? How can we repair this? What would feel right to you? Because I think there’s no cookie cutter solution. And I think having a collaborative problem solving approach with your peers, but being really earnest and honest with the barriers and where you are and how that repair might look realistically if they’re like, well, then let’s get together all the time. And you’re like, ah, I can’t do that, I think is a really important piece of managing what you can do, really owning your side of it and collaborating about what might feel good to the other person.
Dr. Sarah (24:13):
Yeah. No, I think that’s really good advice. So hopefully, I hope this answers your question and keep on writing in to the podcast. We love answering your questions and we love kind of getting to a little peek into the minds of all of our listeners. We’re just like you clearly grappling with the same questions. So thank you. And also, if you find these episodes helpful, please do go on to whatever device you’re listening and hit subscribe, hit follow, and leave us a rating and a review. It makes such a big difference for us to be able to keep giving out these episodes and we love it. So we will see you soon. Thanks for coming Em.
Dr. Emily (25:02):
Bye guys.
Dr. Sarah (25:04):
Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.
Hi, Dr. Sarah! I recently listened to this episode as a first-time listener and am so glad I came across it. I find it relevant to my experience as a third-time mother with my youngest nearing age two. One consideration I am left curious about is the idea of what is reasonable to expect from our friendships, old and new, during this huge life transition of becoming a parent or parent again? What is the responsibility of existing friends to a postpartum friend? What does support look like and how do we know to move on if the reality of our friendships does not meet the expectations we had for them. What does this look like through the lens of feeling let down by friends, ie. friends forgetting your birthday or not making no effort to see you or meet your new baby, etc.? What do you think reciprocity looks like in friendship as we navigate huge life changes? Thanks so much for this! Looking forward to binging your show.