Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

Hello. Welcome back. We are going to answer a question from a listener, and we have Dr. Emily Upshur and Dr. Rebecca Hershberg here to share their infinite wisdom. You guys ready for the question of the week?

Dr. Rebecca (00:59):

Absolutely. Let’s do it.

Dr. Emily (01:00):

Let’s do it.

Dr. Sarah (01:01):

So this is a UK mum. First of all, thank you all so much for your fantastic podcast. I am a trainee clinical psychologist in the UK and also a new-ish mum, and it has been so valuable to have an evidence-based yet empathetic, sensible, psychologically informed podcast on parenting to listen to on my long commutes. So many thanks. So my question, I have a 27 month old little boy and I’ve recently found out I’m pregnant. Congratulations. I am thinking ahead a fair bit because it is very early and I don’t know that this pregnancy will stick, but either way, I’m hoping to have a second child at some point. And these things have been really playing on my mind. I was wondering if you all have any thoughts on when is a good time to tell your toddler that you’re pregnant? I’m mindful that he will likely be picking up on things from pretty early doors, whether that is just whispered conversations and looks, or mommy perhaps being more tired or not feeling well. If he doesn’t understand what’s going on, it might be quite unsettling and confusing if no one has explained it. On the other hand, he has only a very basic understanding of time, so I don’t know if it might be more confusing or unsettling to be told this big life change is happening such a long time from now that he can’t even comprehend it. What are your experiences of this? I love this question.

Dr. Rebecca (02:13):

I get this question all the time.

Dr. Sarah (02:14):

Me too. Alright, so do you have a stock response? Is it the same for everyone or is it different?

Dr. Rebecca (02:21):

It’s pretty stock actually. I’ve never elevated pitch.

Dr. Emily (02:27):

I’m on baited breath, Rebecca. Let’s see.

Dr. Rebecca (02:30):

Well, the first thing I say actually is that mileage varies on this one and that there are colleagues that I actually really tremendously respect and think well of that differ from me on this. So Emily, we’re good regardless, I always say sooner rather than later. And I always say it doesn’t have to be a sit down, there’s something we’re telling you, but just to say there’s going to be a baby growing in my belly early on. So I mean she basically laid it out in her question because there are going to be looks and phone calls and unexplained tiredness and when we keep secrets from our kids, they pick up on it and they tend to misinterpret it and think that it’s something about them or they did something wrong. And so I tend to say it doesn’t have to be the day you take a pregnancy, you don’t have to pee on a stick and then run, tell your toddler.

(03:36):

But I know there are people who recommend, and again, people I respect who recommend waiting until you’re showing or that sort of thing. And that’s not the camp that I tend to fall into. And in fact, I’ve actually had clinical experiences where parents have come into me with questions or concerns about their toddler’s behavior or emotions and mom has been pregnant but they haven’t yet told the child. And when they do child, the child, those behaviors clear up and similarly with things that parents really think their kids don’t know about or don’t need to know about a miscarriage, that sort of a thing. And I tend to think, and we’ve done other episodes on this around other topics, being open with our kids in an honest and developmentally appropriate way is the most likely to lead to the healthiest outcomes.

Dr. Emily (04:36):

Yeah. Okay. We’re good. We’re good. Rebecca, we’re on the same page. I’ll say that I caveat it.

Dr. Rebecca (04:42):

Because I don’t actually really respect those other colleagues that I mentioned.

Dr. Emily (04:46):

Now that we’re aligned, I say something very, very similar and the thing I add on, which you probably do as well, is children are pretty tuned and they fill in the gaps with what their developmentally appropriate knowledge is. And I would rather them fill in the gaps with an honest response from a fully developed mom brain. And so that to me is the bigger thing that I think that you’re aptly describing, which is they’re probably going to notice something. And so I’d rather them noticing something. It’s developmentally appropriate for it to be very egocentric in their own minds and that can cause to Rebecca’s point feelings on the inside which might have behaviors on the outside and a lot of things that transpire. And I think holding onto that and being very transparent with them can curtail some of that.

Dr. Sarah (05:47):

Egocentric but also magical thinking. It could be egocentric means I’m controlling this in some way, this has something to do with me. So it could be, I’m just thinking it could be a million thoughts. Kids’ minds are complex and mysterious, but it’s like a child could have the thought they’re mad at me or they don’t want to be around me, or it could be something much more magical When I broke that crayon that broke something in Mom, again, it doesn’t make sense and we’ll never be able to anticipate or predict all the dots that they are connecting correctly or incorrectly, but the filling in the blanks, I’m just trying to help give some examples of how we could guess or we could have no idea, but I think it’s just so much better to fill in the blanks with information that is accurate. And to your point, Rebecca and Emily, developmentally appropriate.

(06:51):

It doesn’t have to be the whole long story, it could just be a quick actually think, Rebecca, the idea of not having it be like this big serious sit down at the beginning is kind of a nice approach. Talk a little bit about babies and read some books and then be like, you know what? That’s what’s happening right now for me and my belly and just also helping them visualize it. Another thing, especially with younger kids who haven’t really seen this process and any other parts of their life, obviously they might not have seen you have other babies, but some older kids have, someone in their daycare has had a sibling, they’ve been introduced to the concept before, but with younger kids or kids who haven’t been introduced to this concept, first introduce the concept from an external place like a book so that they have some sort of schematic anchor and then you introduce your piece of the story and then they have somewhere to connect those dots too, I think can be very helpful.

Dr. Emily (07:53):

I love that. Although it’s absolutely not what we did. We told my boys that we were having another baby. We sat them down and it’s ironic we’re having this podcast because just last night my husband sent me the video of us telling and we videoed it just to make it really a spectacle. It ended up being quite funny, but it’s ironic that we’re doing this podcast today because just last night he sent it and a great example of ego-centric was centric. My children were, oh God, I don’t even know how old they were at the time, but five and 18 months at the time. And my older son was like, great, we’re going to name the baby my kindergarten teacher’s name. And she thought that was a great idea and why would we consider anything else? He was like, well call the baby Kathleen. And we were like, okay. Good. Well, that’s noted. Thank you for your contribution.

Dr. Sarah (08:53):

Yeah, but I’m curious too because so your oldest had already been through this experience once, but your soon to be middle child had not. Do you feel like that changed anything at all in terms of even the thought process for you guys and how you chose to deliver this information? Just having kind gone through that phase once before of introducing this idea to a kid in the family?

Dr. Emily (09:19):

I think it helps just that it might even be a mess. I remember when we told my older son, my oldest, that we were pregnant with the second one, he had a fine reaction to us, but he started running into people at daycare just knocking them by accident, knocking into other children. And so we were like, oh, I guess you have some feelings about littler children to be clear, you have some feelings about it. But it was at the time felt really kind of big and we were like, oh gosh, then, so you’re right. Going through the second time, it did feel like, you know what? It can be a little bit bumpy. There can be a wide range of reactions and also to Rebecca’s initial point sort of the more okay you are with all of that and self-regulating, checking in with yourself, it sort of plays out in an okay way I think.

Dr. Sarah (10:16):

Yeah. Also, it’s not lost on me that the second time around your middle had his older brother to be, whether he was aware of a it or not tuning into see if his response was going to be okay. And when his response was like Score, we’re going to name it after my kindergarten, that also sets an emotional tone of like, oh, we’re safe. This is good. This is welcome. For the middle one.

Dr. Emily (10:40):

I think he was like, what’s happening?

Dr. Sarah (10:42):

He’s just looking at what his older brother’s doing and like…

Dr. Emily (10:45):

Well, I think you’re talking about something kind of important. Actually while you were saying it, I was thinking it is the same old adage, it’s like people, you don’t remember what they say, but you remember how they make you feel. So when you’re presenting this to your kid, they remember how it feels around. Does it feel exciting? Does it feel anxiety producing? I think there’s a little bit of that.

Dr. Rebecca (11:10):

And those aren’t mutually exclusive. I think sometimes when parents present, they are so excited, but there’s pressure in that excitement because then as a little one, if you don’t feel that excitement, then there’s that I’m not attuning to my parents. They’re so excited and I’m not, is there something wrong with me? Am I bad?

(11:30):

Certainly I’ve met with many clients, mostly moms in this capacity, I have to say who themselves feel really ambivalent. They know they want it, and this is within the context of a planned pregnancy, kind of like the listener knows they want two kids, but then there’s something about telling that makes it real and they feel like they’re betraying their first child even though they know they’re not. There’s just so many complicated feelings for everyone, and so you don’t have to wait until those resolve to tell your toddler. Right, and it’s okay to frame it. It’s like is this is a big thing? It doesn’t have to be a big exciting thing only, it doesn’t have to be a big happy thing only It doesn’t have to be a big terrible and frustrating thing. It’s a big thing and there’s months and months and years and years to figure out all the feelings around it.

Dr. Sarah (12:26):

Would you say that to the kid or is that what you’re saying to yourself?

Dr. Rebecca (12:32):

That’s what I’m saying to myself. I mean, I might say to the kid, yeah, this is a big thing as a way of not trying to dictate how they feel. So I agree with you, Emily, that I want to be regulated when I give the news ideally, and I certainly, if I’m feeling happy, I’m a hundred percent okay showing that, but I don’t want to kind of come on. So hyped up Camp Cery that it doesn’t give space for something else, and that’s why the phrase, yeah, this is a big thing kind of leaves the door open for whatever the toddler in a common loving and nurturing way so that there’s no doubt that, as you said, Sarah, they feel safe, but there’s no even unintentional dictating of what feelings are correct right now.

Dr. Sarah (13:26):

Yeah, I think that’s so important because I was going to say, this mom specifically says, she’s like, I’m not sure if it might be more confusing or unsettling to be told this big life change is happening such a long time from now. And I’m like, yes, it is a big life change, but we also don’t want to project onto our child anything that’s not necessarily going to be their experience. This is a big thing, feels very different to me than this is a huge change and everything is going to be a little bit different and going to be, we don’t have to give them the whole runway right now. You can titrate that messaging out in drips as it comes. I think there is something to being a little bit nonchalant a little bit. We’re going to just sort of put this out here and to your point, Rebecca, not deny that it is a big thing, but not come in kind of setting a tone, either a worried tone, like, Ooh, are you going to be okay when all this stuff changes versus, but also equally not, oh my God, this is the best news ever and you’re going to get a baby brother. I think we need to be able to just give them some information with a bit of a nonchalant, just like we might tell them any new piece of information.

Dr. Rebecca (14:55):

And especially if we’re talking about a toddler, I think this mom said her child is.

Dr. Sarah (15:00):

27 months.

Dr. Rebecca (15:01):

27 months. I mean, we just don’t want, because then there’s parents who, I mean, we talk about this all the time on the podcast who are doing way too much reading about parenting on Instagram and they’re hitting them with, and this is a really big thing, and it’s okay to feel happy and it’s okay to feel sad, and it’s okay to feel frustrated and you may have lots of feelings and it’s like the kid is looking at you, whatcha even talking about? Use a few words, just say the thing and then it’s not a one-off. Then it’s going to be a conversation that you have a lot of times.

Dr. Sarah (15:32):

Not for eight more months.

Dr. Rebecca (15:35):

You don’t have to make every point that you want to make a point in that first conversation.

Dr. Sarah (15:42):

I also think, to your point, Rebecca, there’s a lot of information that tells parents to do certain things, and it’s okay to take that information and throw it away. I’m sorry, you got to go with your kid. You got to go with your feelings on this. I know we’re giving you information, but we’re get your information from us. It’s fine, and then you stop going on Instagram board. But really I think if you, yes, it’s good to validate and I think it is important to let a young kid know that. Yeah, it’s okay to preview a little bit. Emily, and I remember we used to do those second getting your kid ready for a new sibling talk, and one of the things we’d always talk about was you do want to help them be prepared for the fact that babies actually aren’t so fun and they cry a lot and they poop a lot and they sleep a lot and they don’t play with you and they’re not an actual toddler counterpart at birth, and they do take mom and dad’s attention a lot, but that’s not what you’re doing. You’re not going to prepare them for that in this conversation.

Dr. Rebecca (16:52):

Right, right, exactly. I mean, that’s a different podcast episode.

Dr. Sarah (16:56):

And I think sometimes to your point, Rebecca, some people kind of shoot it all out at once because worried and they’re anxious and it’s like respond to the things and help the child make sense of them. So if a kid is feeling complicated feelings about it and you’re sensing that, then start to name that for them. But that’s probably going to be a responsive approach to seeing something you need to respond to versus in an attempt to try to anticipate every possible thing that you might need to know about this. I’m going to download all this information on you right now that’s unnecessary. Just plant the seed and then revisit it.

Dr. Rebecca (17:38):

And the conversation can look a little bit different if you have a five-year-old or a six-year-old or a 7-year-old. I mean, depending how old the, I got a ton of questions for you.

Dr. Emily (17:47):

And we always say there’s no wrong way, so we’ll just give you lots of options of how to hold different ways of doing it, I guess. That’s pretty much it.

Dr. Sarah (17:57):

Yeah. Well, congratulations.

Dr. Emily (17:58):

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca (17:59):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (18:00):

And thank you for being so sweet about how much you love this podcast. Goodness, that was very flattering.

Dr. Rebecca (18:05):

Woo hoo. Absolutely. Always Great. I love it. Bring more like this, please.

Dr. Sarah (18:13):

All right, well, I’ll see you lovely ladies soon and keep sending in your questions, everybody. We love them.

Dr. Rebecca (18:20):

Sounds great. Bye everyone.

Dr. Emily (18:21):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (18:24):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.