Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

We are back with another Beyond the Session segment of the Securely Attached podcast where we are going to answer a listener question. We have Dr. Emily Upshur here. Hi Em.

Dr. Emily (00:54):

Hey. Good to be here.

Dr. Sarah (00:54):

So it’s so good for you to be here. Are you ready for the question?

Dr. Emily (00:59):

Yes. Let’s do it. Let’s jump in. Okay.

Dr. Sarah (01:02):

This mom writes in and she says, I know sharing is a really hard skill, and there are many pre-reqs to quote acquire before being able to tolerate sharing. And I know it’s especially hard for a three-year-old, however, my daughter doesn’t have such a hard time sharing per se. She can share her toys, books, et cetera. However, she cannot absolutely never take turns, whether it’s in pretend play, she always needs to be the mommy. She can never be daddy or everyone gets a turn to sit in grandma’s new chair. She cannot get off the chair. She doesn’t want to take turns. It happens all the time. And when she’s told to give her peer a turn, she has a complete meltdown. When she melts down, we try the validation piece and connecting with her by saying how we see, she’s very upset about X and we understand it. Super hard to take turns, yet it does nothing to deescalate the situation. She just cries louder. Yeah, it’s hard. And I can’t do it any guidance.

Dr. Emily (01:57):

Oh, they’re doing so much good stuff.

Dr. Sarah (01:59):

I know, I know.

Dr. Emily (02:00):

I love it.

Dr. Sarah (02:01):

I especially love how she just sets it up. She’s like, I understand that being able to tolerate sharing requires a ton of pre-work. You have to build the foundational skills. It’s sharing is complex. And so you got to build the building blocks and she’s got a really good understanding of what’s appropriate for a three-year-old.

Dr. Emily (02:20):

That’s what I was going to say too. Developmentally sharing isn’t developmentally appropriate even for a three-year-old, so that her daughter is able to do some of that even though she can’t do the taking turns. It’s not even necessarily developmentally expected at that point.

Dr. Sarah (02:36):

And the other thing I love is she says that when the child does meltdown, they validate, they connect. They don’t really, the goal isn’t to get her to not have the feelings, but they’re still noticing, and this is a sort of sidebar, but I see this a ton insensitive kids where when you validate them, they get more mad. They’re like, I know. Stop telling me I can’t do the thing. And this is like, I say this from personal experience. My own children, my kids, one of my kids actually really likes the validation. One of my kids is like, shut up. Get away from don’t look at me. Don’t say that to me.

Dr. Emily (03:18):

It’s too hot. I totally agree. I thought that same thought when I was hearing what the parent said. I was like, oh, so you’re doing so much good. You should validate, but I wonder if in this particular question I might keep it super short and sweet. Right? Oh, you’re having a really hard time. I see that. Right. And then…

Dr. Sarah (03:35):

And then the rest is body language and facial expression and sighing. That’s all I just, you know, but we could talk a little bit about what to do with the meltdowns occur because they’re, when you’re setting boundaries or teaching a new skill, that’s tricky.

(03:51):

But what I think is the most important part I want to highlight about this question for this episode is that she’s making a very appropriate distinction between sharing and taking turns. We’ve talked about sharing, we’ve done a couple episodes on sharing. We’ll link those in the show notes too so you guys can reference those. I think it does give, clearly this parent knows this stuff and if you want to learn what she knows, go to those episodes. But taking turns is a different skill and it’s still a hard one, but it’s a different, it’s kind of like a, so if we understand we’re going to teach our kids certain things, certain building blocks to get them to be able to tolerate sharing eventually, which is like 5, 6, 7, I would say not three. Then taking turns, we’re actually working kind of with different mechanisms. We’re working with inhibition tolerance, frustration tolerance, perspective taking, and also grief. Get lost my turn over. And I’m sad about that. I have to grieve that actually. And I don’t think we think about that as much in terms of kids experience grief. We all experience grief over very seemingly small things, but kids experience on a very core, basic, primal level, it’s not just sadness, it’s grief.

(05:25):

It’s fleeting. It’s fleeting, it comes and goes. It doesn’t last forever. But I think we think of grief as adults as the grief that you go through when someone dies. And it’s this prolonged experience of I’m talking about primary affect of grief. I have to keep this thing up and it’s over and it is sad and I have to mourn the loss of this seat in grandma’s chair or my turn to be mommy.

Dr. Emily (05:51):

And as a parent, that’s perspective taking because you’re like, this is ridiculous. This is crazy. But I think the important point you’re trying to make is it is developmentally appropriate to experience it, at least in that moment pretty deeply. And so it is not a surprise that there’s a lot of affect around that or there’s not a skill in being able to inhibit that in order to do something else.

Dr. Sarah (06:17):

And I also think mean, it also depends too on we’re the mom, this person who wrote in the question gave a couple different examples of where she has hard time taking turns, and I think they’re actually, at least in the two examples that she’s giving, getting out of the chair to take turns on sitting on grandma’s new chair versus switching roles and pretend play. Now it’s my turn to be the mom or the dad when we’re playing house. That actually I also think is tapping into two different sources of the resistance that they’re seeing in the child to give up the thing. Because with the grandma’s new chair, taking turns is going to activate territory, a sense of, you’re taking my territory away, that territorialness is going to get activated, which makes taking turns hard in that situation. Whereas with the pretend play, I actually think the taking turns in that set scenario is requiring this child to feel interrupted in the thread of their play, which is different, right? I am working through a story in my mind and you’re telling me to stop that and switch to a different character, but that’s not my intention in this moment.

(07:35):

Not to get too in nitty gritty, but I think I would be mindful as a parent when we’re thinking about where skills that we’re trying to build up, sometimes they show up in different contexts and we actually, I would be more inclined to work through the Territorialness. I’d be less inclined to inhibit the flow of a narrative play and be like, let the child get to the end of the story. I don’t know that taking turns of who gets to be mommy or daddy in this pretend play, I don’t see a lot of utility to that. I’m curious what you think, Emily.

Dr. Emily (08:12):

Yeah, I mean, I’m not so stuck on that because I think that could show up in different ways. It could be just rigidity around that role needing to work through, to your point, that role, lots of other stuff. So I don’t want to get lost in the weeds of that. But I guess what, the thing that I kept thinking while you were talking about the examples this parent laid out, which were really, you’re right, really different was, I don’t know, practicing these building blocks and these skills in the heat of moments is tricky. This is striking when the iron is hot and when your child is pretty activated, maybe a little bit more rigid, there’s more of this threat response to ask them to do something different. So I guess where I was thinking is this is ripe for playing with these notions outside of a really activated in the moment in front of peers, in front of grandma kind of setting. Because I think you’re least likely to have success when you’re stressed out, like be socially appropriate, be socially appropriate, and when your child is stressed out because they see that dynamic or feel that dynamic as well.

Dr. Sarah (09:22):

Yeah, I totally agree. I think are, I’m trying to think too, in order to practice something in the cold moments, I’m hearing this mom be like, yeah, but I didn’t know we were going to be seeing grandma’s new chair, so I didn’t know to practice that, which is true. So I’m just trying to think about the questions in advance and try to come up with an answer for them as they come. But I think to that hypothetical question would be you’re never going to know all the things, which is why I think thinking about them in categories like territory and play and flexibility inside of play. So that’s where I’d practice. You’re not going to anticipate every situation where your child’s going to have to take a turn and you could practice. But I would look for those sort of core things. So if it’s about territory like this is mine or it’s not mine, but I have a chance to use it, and in using it, it feels like it becomes mine. That’s also super normal for a three-year-old if they are using something, even if they, on some level, no, it is not theirs, it is now theirs. It feels like it is theirs. They have put a part of themselves in that thing. And for older kids that’s not as, their sense of self isn’t as diffuse. They don’t project themselves onto things quite the same way. They’re able to see it as a chair and be like, it’s your turn now I’m over it.

(10:55):

But sometimes in using something, especially in playing with something, there’s a sense of ownership that can get created for the child. Again, also fleeting when they feel really done, they’re done and they don’t feel like it’s theirs anymore. But if you take a pencil away from a three-year-old who’s using it, it’s like, that is my pencil. That is mine. It feels so a part of them. So the territory thing, again at three, I think territory is really powerful and I don’t expect many three-year-olds to be able to tolerate losing territory. And so if you want to practice this skill, I’d practice it not just in cold moments but with really neutral things. I’m trying to think of scenarios where you could practice turn taking neutral stuff.

Dr. Emily (11:45):

What I’m hearing is things are less invested in it, things your child might be less invested.

Dr. Sarah (11:51):

Here’s an example of where I might have played this out in my family. So my kids are a little bit older than this, but they love, they’ve always loved to wipe the kitchen table down. That was always a fight over who gets to wipe the spray and wipe. And obviously sometimes I’m just like, here, take two towels and be quiet. But if I wanted to practice turn taking with this sort of hot space in a time when we weren’t getting ready for dinner and it wasn’t that associated time of like, oh, I get to do this thing, just play time. I’d bring both kids in the kitchen and I’d say, we’re going to do, we’re going to play a game. I’m going to set a timer or maybe play a song like freeze dance kind of thing. That could be a, I’m trying to think of ways to turn this into a game so that it’s like we can play giving up territory and taking turns and inhibiting impulse in a playful low stakes way.

(12:51):

And so I’d maybe be like, we’re going to play a song when the song’s over, you got to give that towel to your brother and when the song, then we’ll play another song. And when that song’s over, oh, hot potato, got to get that towel over to your sister and you just practice in these and making it almost safe and fun and almost beneficial. Part of the game is like how quickly can you get rid of the towel? So hot potato would be a good game to play freeze dance kind of games where you’re using the freeze dance when the music stops, get past the towel Howell. These are ways to practice this skill at an age like three of giving up a desired object where it’s fun to do it and it’s creating a totally different association with this abdicating territory, which is, this is the building block. I think that, I know I keep getting stuck on this, I am trying to break it down as we talk, but I really do think I’ve landed on, I believe giving up territory, making, giving up territory, feel fun and safe in practicing that could probably help with turn taking. Do you think that’s possible?

Dr. Emily (14:03):

I love the idea of creating a little, I call it jazz hands over here a little bit. Creating a game is a little bit of a distraction and it gives a little bit of a new context and new vibe to those kinds of feelings. But again, I think, and I’m stuck on making it more broad, you’re like making, and I’m making it broader, but I actually think what’s so important is taking that sentimentality as the parent. This is light. This doesn’t have to be high stakes, even in real life situations. I think that’s so important as we parent when we’re taking those turns too, that we don’t, I think this parent does a really good job validating, but I also wonder if they lean a lot into that feeling badly about this. And I’m like, alright, it’s just time to take. And I think the way you carry yourself as a parent and if you can carry that hot potato mentality into real life situations, I think that also is a huge part of what diffuses some of or mitigates the length, intensity and duration of these types of reactions. Yes.

Dr. Sarah (15:10):

That’s a really good point. I think that’s a very hot moment strategy in the moment, sort of moving through it quickly versus really staying it with them too long.

Dr. Emily (15:20):

And keeping those practice moments in mind or the feeling in those practice moments in mind that we’re hoping our kids can maybe extrapolate a little. I think it’s actually more important that we keep that in mind too, in our experience, so that we can remember that in hotter moments.

Dr. Sarah (15:37):

Yeah. Also, there’s one other thing I’m hung up on, which is when the mom was saying that they tried the validation piece and the connecting piece saying she’s really upset and it’s hard to take turns. I am realizing the more I talk about this with parents is we often really spend a lot of time validating the feeling, which I think everyone tells all parents to do, which I don’t think is a bad thing, but I think we might do well to validate the wish instead of the feeling, you really don’t want to get out of the chair. You really want this chair to be all yours. I get that.

Dr. Emily (16:12):

Totally. I love that.

Dr. Sarah (16:13):

Not you’re really upset that you have to take turns. I don’t know that that lands for kids as much. They’re very aware that they want that chair, and I think we can validate that. I’m not saying it will prevent the meltdown when they have to get out of the chair. That’s the grief and then the rage, and then they will move through that wave. But I don’t know. I think sometimes I’m going back to why does sometimes validation really not land for kids? And I think we spend so much time validating their feelings, but they are not stuck on the feeling. They’re stuck on not having what they’re trying to do. They’re feeling interrupted, they’re feeling thwarted in some way. I want to sit in, this is my chair now and I want to sit in it, and we can try to intellectually go to that place. It’s not your chair, it’s their turn, but that’s prefrontal cortex land. They’re not on their thinking brain’s not on, we could go to the validating the emotions, but they’re just so in the emotions, they’re not really aware. And then I think instead, if we say, you really want this chair, I know it’s going to be your turn again in a little bit, off we go. And there’s that sort of not lightness, that quickness that you were talking about, Emily, but then they get upset. But just, I don’t know. Do you kind of get what I’m saying?

Dr. Emily (17:34):

Yeah. There’s two thoughts I have. One is, yes, absolutely. I think as close as we can stay to what’s happening when we validate is, and I do, keeping it shorter and sweeter is great. So you’re seeing, again, it’s reflective functioning, which is imagining the other person is thinking or feeling, which you’re articulating. So it’s like the kid is like, I just want the chair. And if you say you feel upset, they’re like, what are you talking about? I want the chair. So I think that’s really important. But the other piece that I kept thinking again, that’s a little bit broader is I also don’t expect a great reaction. I don’t expect, oh, if I nail this validation or if I nail a support statement, I’m actually almost never expecting, oh, thanks mom, that makes me feel so much better. Or I’m ready to not share this.

(18:21):

I’m ready to get off this chair. Now. I think the other thing I want to say to this parent is you can do all these things and you’re doing so much, and also you might not get any immediate reward. This is planting a seed and waiting a very long time for that sprout to come up because I think it’s like, please and thank you. You can say it a million times to your kids, please say please and thank you. Say please and thank you. And you have to cue them every time. And eventually, I have a 14-year-old who does that. Lovely. But I do want to highlight that just because this parent is still struggling in this time period, doesn’t mean they’re not doing things right either, just because there’s not attenuation of the outcome.

Dr. Sarah (19:04):

It’s true. I think that’s such an important point. We think that if we get the statement correct, if we land on the correct intervention, the outcome will be that they share. It’s not that, right? Our goal in these moments is actually in getting them off the chair and them having frustration, possibly even a meltdown, and then that goes away. They recover. All kids eventually recover from the meltdown. It’s that whole process that teaches them sharing or taking turns is hard. I do have feelings about it, but the feelings also eventually go away. And it’s that whole piece of knowledge that helps a child actually give up territory the next time or a hundred times later. It’s not I’m supposed to take turns. That’s something I’ve learned. It’s that the fear of taking turns, feeling really bad, being something I cannot tolerate. I want to do anything to avoid having to give up this thing that stops being so primal and primary and front of mind and strong.

(20:25):

It’s like that’s what phases away. It’s the tolerance for giving up the thing. And we only get there by eventually realizing, oh, giving that up wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be for me. And so there’s going to be a lot of really bad feelings about it. Getting to the other side of that bad feeling, and this is where I think another really important part for the parent to do is after the meltdown, once the bad or after the just brief flash of frustration, after that goes away and the child is back to them, they’re chill out again. That’s when I would go in and say, Hey, did you notice giving up the seed in grandma’s chair was really hard and you got upset? And now that feeling isn’t here anymore. It went away. You did it way to go high five, move on. But you’re closing that loop for them. That’s the learning bit. So I think we forget sometimes that, because as adults, we learn things so fast in seconds. And for kids it could be they have to move through five phases over the course of maybe an hour to get to that end. And then we help them integrate that piece of information, not this is how you take turns. They know that this is how you survive, the feelings that come with having to give up your turn and you did it,

Dr. Emily (21:52):

And the repetition.

Dr. Sarah (21:53):

That’s what we’ll hope to get shorter and be eventually able to be pulled upon instantly for the kid. But that is what we’re, that’s the building block. That’s what we’re trying to teach.

Dr. Emily (22:02):

Yeah. Yeah. And that repetition, to your point, adults do we learn new skills? Sure. Does it take a thousand repetitions to learn a new skill? Yes. So I encourage this mom, they’re doing a lot of great, or this parent, they’re doing a lot of great stuff. Keep at it.

Dr. Sarah (22:18):

Yes, I love it. You’re the best. Thank you so much.

Dr. Emily (22:23):

Always a pleasure.

Dr. Sarah (22:23):

Talk soon.

Dr. Emily (22:25):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (22:27):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.