Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hey, welcome back to Securely Attached podcast. We’re doing our Beyond the Sessions Q&A segment, and we’ve got Rebecca Hershberg and Emily Upshur here to share their thoughts and wisdom.

Dr. Emily (00:56):

Hi.

Dr. Sarah (00:56):

Okay, you guys ready to hear this mom’s question?

Dr. Rebecca (01:02):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (01:04):

All right, so she writes in, hello. We are neighbors with a boy who is the same age as our 6-year-old and in his kindergarten class they become friends and often play together, but I’m starting to feel anxious about it, especially with summer coming. This child struggles with listening, has poor spatial and social awareness and is impulsive and sometimes destructive. Even with reminders, he’ll crash into people or wander into our house uninvited. It’s exhausting to manage, especially since I also have a three-year-old to watch who’s often on the receiving end of rough play. His behavior suggests possible A DHD and or autism, for example, toe walking, sensory sensitivities, fixations withholding issues, and while his parents, one of whom is a special needs teacher, seem aware nothing has been directly acknowledged, we like the family and don’t want to damage the relationship, but we also need to protect our kids and create boundaries. I don’t feel comfortable supervising him alone and it’s tricky since they live two doors down and he often just shows up when we’re outside. How can we set kind but firm boundaries in this situation without hurting feelings or the friendship?

Dr. Emily (02:10):

Tough one.

Dr. Sarah (02:11):

It is also, I hear two different questions here. I’m curious what your thoughts are, but one is what this kid is going through being a reason for why I have to intervene and the other really is just how do I set a boundary with my neighbors because while I think it’s really nice that she’s trying to kind of contextualize what is going on for this kid so that she can have compassion and understand it, I also don’t think whether or not he has a DHD or autism or is getting out of control at their house is like why he’s getting out of control at her house is really the bigger issue. That was my thought. Doesn’t feel like a why. It feels like a, what do I do when I need to tell my neighbors this isn’t working for me?

Dr. Rebecca (03:08):

Well, I wondered, as you were telling the question, I wondered if maybe she was saying that for our benefit so we could picture the type of behavior because otherwise, yeah, it’s, I mean even if she were qualified to diagnose, that’s not how we diagnose, but I think to me it just sort of provides a picture of what’s happening. But the general question is the last part of the question where she said, how do I set kind but firm boundaries, which I think is a general question a lot of us have when you live in these really wonderful neighborhoods where kids feel safe enough with grownups in the neighborhood and just with the surroundings to kind of wander to houses and sometimes it’s really wonderful and then other times there’s a child where it just doesn’t work so well because of whatever reason. And how do you handle that as a neighbor, as a friend, as a member of a community? To me, the question that is the important and central one.

Dr. Emily (04:08):

I agree. Yeah, I was going to say something similar, which is there’s such a range in what you personally think is okay. There’s just such a range. So I think it doesn’t really matter what the presenting thing is, if it doesn’t feel good in your house or if it doesn’t feel good it to have in your environment how to set a boundary around that. It doesn’t even have to be some extreme or sort of diagnosable thing. It could be like, I don’t really like kids who run around my house with shoes on. I think there’s just a broad spectrum.

Dr. Rebecca (04:45):

You get to decide, right? It’s not like you get to decide what doesn’t feel good to you in terms of a boundary crossing having, and somebody else may feel totally differently and that’s great too, but it’s your house.

Dr. Emily (04:57):

And I think maybe this person has empathy for a child who’s struggling trying not to judge the child in some ways, and I respect that and I think that’s really valuable. And also boundaries take money. You can also have a boundary. So I think that that’s the other thing.

Dr. Sarah (05:14):

Right? I almost feel like in defense of this mom, but also I have this protective part of me that wants to be like, oh my goodness, there’s a part of you that feels so beholden to have a big reason, like a justifiable reason to set this boundary. Like, oh, I’m only allowed to set this boundary because we’re dealing with something medical or complicated that’s too big for me to handle versus just saying, this isn’t really work for me to have a kid happen into my house when I’m not ready to invite them in.

Dr. Rebecca (05:49):

And I have a three sort of like if I didn’t have a three-year-old, I could drop everything and just pay attention to this. It’s like this says, you don’t have to do this.

Dr. Sarah (05:56):

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca (05:57):

I mean I think these conversations can be tricky and I think they are always what, it’s just, how do I say this in a way that I could receive? Because I think that’s also what I’m hearing from her is this empathy for just being a parent and being a parent of a kid that’s struggling and she clearly can tap into that. And so how do you tap into that when you’re setting a boundary and it’s just authentic and kind to my mind, there’s a simple kind of just saying your truth in an authentic and kind way. Hey, I wanted to let you know, I don’t have the question in front of me, but there are times that your child’s been coming over to our house and it’s so lovely that he feels comfortable. I love that he feels safe and that we have the kind of neighborhood where our kids can do that and it’s really valuable. But recently it’s actually been really challenging because there’s so much going on and I feel like I can’t keep all the kids safe, and so I just feel like we need a new system. Can you please text me? Or whatever the boundary is. Do you want to just say, this kid can’t come into my house. Do you want to say text me first? Do you want to say, whatever the action is.

Dr. Sarah (07:10):

Come with him? You need to be here to supervise him.

Dr. Rebecca (07:13):

Right, right.

Dr. Emily (07:14):

Yeah. I would say you also, as a parent, I feel like I’ve been on both sides of this, absolutely. Hundred percent a parent. I feel like I don’t really know what my 12 year old’s doing out in the world because I have this very immense privilege of having a very safe area and for him to sort of be roaming and doing awesome outdoor play and really great stuff. But I think then I really do need the community to be like, Hey, he was a little too wild, or hey, because I’m not following him around. Even at a younger age, even in our community, it’s pretty safe to be more independent at a younger age and at younger ages some kids, and just for a variety of reasons, kids need a little bit more supervision. And so we sort of don’t know that if they’re not, maybe they’re okay with us. Maybe we feel confident about sending them out in the world, but we do need that ability to see the other side. And if you’re fortunate enough to have a community that can give you that, I think that’s also really great.

Dr. Sarah (08:25):

And I think, listen, I do see it tricky. My guess is because she gave us all this context of maybe there’s something bigger going on and I’m not really sure what it is, but I don’t know if the parents understand or are acknowledging it at least then it also feels perhaps difficult to know what I can and can’t say. And so I guess my thought is when in doubt just strip it down to your needs. That’s what we need more support from you when your son’s visiting. So can you come with or can you schedule a time when I can give him more attention? I just don’t think it has to be, again, I don’t think you have to get into all the why, because I think that might be where she’s getting stuck a little bit. What am I allowed to say? What am I not allowed to say? There’s a lot of neighborhood politics. It’s tricky, like social politics on how to say things tactfully.

Dr. Emily (09:34):

I like how you said, strip it down to what your needs are. I think that’s a really great place to start. I hear a little bit of a like, Ooh, they know their kid is tough in this question. I kind of hear that. And if they know their kid is tough, why are they letting their kid come over to my house and be tough at my house? That’s a little bit of what I hear in this question, and I think that’s a hard conversation to have. It’s not a hard conversation to have to say, I need a little more support when your son is at my house. That’s a different conversation about how executable something can be, how there’s a material change that you’re asking for rather than saying sort of a judgment or an evaluation. That’s a harder type of conversation, I think.

Dr. Rebecca (10:22):

Right, and I foresee Emily, it sounds like you could easily receive if someone was like, your kid was a little bit wild at our house, there’s plenty of parents who can’t necessarily receive that or who are going to ask questions, well, what do you mean by wild?

(10:36):

We’re like, he’s a boy. It’s just like that has nothing to do with it. You feel like this particular kid is just, and I kind of said what I said quite deliberately because I think all parents respond to it as like it’s not safe, can’t keep when there are this many kids at my house or when there’s this kid at my house or whatever it is, I can’t keep them safe. And so we need to figure out a different way to do this, which is collaborative, but also has nothing to do with your kid unless you want to read into it. It just has to do with, again, what am I capable of as a parent? I know what you want more than anything in the world because what every parent wants is to know that where their kids are going is going to be safe. I’m telling you, it’s not. I have too many kids running. I have too many things going on. I’m not keeping people safe. And so this is in everybody’s best interest as opposed to sort of that idea of, well, your kids being wild, which takes on a different tone.

Dr. Sarah (11:40):

I think what I’m hearing us too circling around, which I feel like is important to just state, is we’re really talking about communication skills, period. And in general, Rebecca, what you’re saying is when you state what your capacity is, what you can and can’t do to create a safe environment for the kids, or if we’re saying what your needs are, that invites less of a negotiation because it’s your truth. Whereas when you state something, if we put the onus of control into our own self, I can do this, I can’t do this, I need this, I want this. It’s just harder for someone to come back and be like, no, you don’t want that. Or, yeah, you can do that. But if you say your kid, if you put the onus of control on the child or on the other parent, it invites a lot more counter from the other person, right? Oh, no, no, my child can do this or I can’t do this, or whatever. So I just think from a just bare bones communication strategy, effective communication is when we anchor it in ourself. Like I statements, right?

Dr. Rebecca (13:00):

It’s the only thing we’d know. I mean, I could say when you really lovely clean, incredibly well behaved daughter comes over and sits in my living room and reads her book, it feels like too much for me and I can’t supervise her effectively. A parent might want to say, what, are you kidding me? My kid has never done it again. It has nothing. It’s like, but I’m allowed to say that it feels like too much for me. And nobody can say, no, it doesn’t, or What’s wrong? It’s back to that boundary piece. This is your house, this is your time with your own kids. What is your comfort level? And if something feels uncomfortable to you, whether or not everybody else would agree is completely irrelevant, and that’s what you focus on.

Dr. Sarah (13:49):

And I think it also, yes, it gives us permission to own our truth, which I think is very empowering to parents who need to set boundaries, but it also, it’s very generous, I believe, because it invites a conversation with someone about probably a topic that’s hard to hear that also gives them some space to not be, they have some room in that conversation. If when you shine the spotlight on your own needs, you are by definition, by default, not shining the spotlight on them and putting them in a position where they have to defend themselves. And I think that’s where we sometimes get in tricky dynamics when we’re having a confrontation with somebody is that the whole problem is that we’re afraid of is to put someone into a defensive position where they can’t lean in and be collaborative, but they have to protect their own sense of self, put up a wall and plug their ears or get a bristly or protective. So that’s another value of if you keep the focus on what your needs are, not only is that self-honoring, but it’s also gives the other person an out. They’re not forcing them into position where they have to defend themselves, which I think can lead to a much more smooth dialogue.

Dr. Rebecca (15:15):

And again, as someone who’s also been on both sides of this, you have a choice as the person listening in a way that feels really compassionate. I might say, okay, thanks so much for letting me know it won’t happen again. Or I might say like, oh, I know he can be so hard, and I think I actually was letting him go to your house in this sort of insensitive way because I just needed a break and I’m really sorry about that. You know what I mean? You as the parent who have the hard kid can decide how vulnerable you want to be, and having that choice as opposed to feeling like you’ve been boxed into a corner is really welcome because it’s not born out of defensiveness or this person hates my kid, or this person thinks there’s something wrong with my kid, or this person thinks I’m a terrible parent. You can sort of choose, do I want to open up to this parent or not in a way that I think can feel freeing?

Dr. Sarah (16:15):

Yeah.

Dr. Emily (16:17):

I think one thing that I like about what we’re saying, but can get a little tricky is if we’re doing some kind of a more broad communication that it doesn’t necessarily leave room for if other kids might not have the same set of rules. If you have a family, your other side, in my neighborhood, there’s families everywhere. And if I set a rule that doesn’t apply to everybody, I think that can get a little tricky, you know?

Dr. Sarah (16:50):

Right, like if it’s just the wild kid, the kid that’s too rough that you’re setting this boundary with that family, but they’re sitting outside their window watching 10 kids play in the backyard and they’re not able to come over because you’ve set the boundary with this specific family. I can see how that could feel. Obviously very difficult for the family that’s being told they need to supervise their kid, but also really tricky for the parent who’s having to set the boundary. It just feels like you can’t just say, oh, this has nothing to do with your kid. This is just about me. It is very much specifically about a boundary I have with your child’s capacity.

Dr. Rebecca (17:34):

But I think there’s an important distinction there because when we were using the script before, we weren’t saying that. We weren’t explicitly saying, oh my gosh, this is all me. It’s not you. I just have a thing about kids in my house. You are being direct and clear and you’re saying, again, it doesn’t feel safe when your kid is here and I’m the only one here. We need more support, whatever. And the other thing I’ll say is there are parents who are absolutely a hundred percent kind of in denial about their kid. There’s a lot of parents who know their kid, and this is not going to come as a surprise to them, nor is it going to be the first time they’ve heard it, and it’s tolerating that. You can still set your boundary, you can set your boundary, and it can be about this child, and it can be really hard to watch this other family take that in and really hard for this other family to hear that. And some of it is about acceptance that there isn’t an easy way to do this. It’s really hard, and they’re allowed to feel upset and they’re allowed to take their upset that this is their kid and put it on you and be angry at you.

(18:46):

And that’s part of, there’s a lot about communication and boundaries, and sometimes women in particular, there’s no way to set a clear firm boundary and absolutely guarantee that no one’s going to be mad at you for doing it.

Dr. Sarah (18:59):

No, it’s true.

Dr. Rebecca (19:00):

And you can’t control that piece. And again, I’ve said without, I’ve been on both sides of this, and it may be, I guess when I think about if that’s the situation with this mom, it’s like tolerating the muddiness of it, being as kind and acting with as much integrity as you can while meeting your need and setting a boundary and just knowing there’s no magic that’s going to make that necessarily an easier pill to swallow.

Dr. Emily (19:32):

Yeah. When you were saying that, it also makes me, it just sort of makes me think for this mom and for the other mom on both sides of this, that this is also, I think it’s really important in parenting to remember this is a slice in time, and I go back to, your child may not have that skill yet. Or, you have to have this boundary right now and leaving that open for, I invite both sides to not feel like, okay, this is, we’re in shackles now, now forever, ever do. Yeah. I’ve now been a parent long enough and seeing this sort of from both sides long enough to see real change. Kids are very malleable in relationships and development and all those things change. So I think in the fear that these will be things that last forever or they feel so, so important right now, I just want to highlight that there’s also, this is a slice of time that can change in both directions, and I just want to keep that top of mind as well.

Dr. Rebecca (20:45):

I think that’s a really great point.

Dr. Sarah (20:47):

Yeah, I think this is really tricky, but I think I’m hopeful that this will be a helpful way to think about it. So good luck. Good luck out there. To the parents who have to set the boundaries to the parents who have to hear the boundaries, none of it’s always easy. Boundary setting is inherently kind of rocky, so sending you hugs. Thanks guys so much.

Dr. Rebecca (21:15):

Bye. Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Emily (21:16):

See you next time.

Dr. Rebecca (21:17):

So long.

Dr. Sarah (21:18):

Bye.

Dr. Emily (21:19):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (21:21):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.