Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back, Dr. Rebecca Hershberg. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Rebecca (00:48):

Hey, thanks for having me.

Dr. Sarah (00:50):

So we have a listener question. Do you want to hear what it is?

Dr. Rebecca (00:54):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (00:55):

Okay. I just want to say how much I love the podcast. It’s been such a helpful resource to me as a parent, especially when I’m second guessing myself, which is often I have a question about summer social stuff. My six-year-old has been really resistant to group activities lately. Things like day camp play dates at the park, even birthday parties. He’ll say it’s too many kids or too loud and sometimes he gets pretty upset when I try to encourage him to go, I want to respect his temperament and not force him into situations that feel overwhelming. But I also worry about him missing out on social experiences or not building confidence in new settings. I guess I’m wondering how do I know when to just let it go and follow his lead and when it’s something I should gently push a bit more and how can I support ’em in those moments without making it into a battle?

Dr. Rebecca (01:41):

It’s a really good question. It’s interesting. I’m noticing a lot of the questions we get from listeners right now are like, how do I know when to do this and how do I know when to do that? And they’re two extremes. And without even knowing the content, it’s usually like there’s no right answer. Sometimes it’s one, sometimes it’s the other. Usually you’re in the middle. And the reason I’m mentioning that in this kind of meta way before getting to this actual content is because I think as parents it’s important to just notice when that’s our thought pattern. When we start thinking like I’m having trouble knowing when to say yes to my kid about such and such, do I not say yes or do I say yes? Because usually it’s a sign that we’re getting anxious about something and if we can just take a deep breath and say, what if I just slow down and recognize there is no one right or wrong way to handle this?

(02:35):

It’s almost like can you be your own beyond the sessions? Because that’s where I want to start with this listener. And it’s sort of like, it’s a really wonderful question. You’re clearly doing your homework. You are recognizing the value of letting it go and letting your kid lead the way, and you’re recognizing the pitfall of that, which is that then your child is calling every shot and potentially missing out on some things they don’t know about, but you know about as a grownup. And so there’s clearly value in both sides. How do I walk the line? And none of us have the answer for that. And the most important thing is to be conscious that that middle place is where you need to be. And so again, I’m delighted this person asked the question, but I almost feel like, well, it’s like just if you’re phrasing a question in that way, you probably know the answer to some extent and just you should feel good about your parenting that you’re being really thoughtful about it and understanding of what’s at play.

Dr. Sarah (03:38):

Yeah, that’s such a good point. And I feel like it’s also in that same vein, important to name, I see this all the time with parents that I work with this idea of ah, and I think it’s a product honestly, of just the inundation with information that parents have.

(03:54):

I saw this post that said, I’m definitely supposed to do this. And then I saw this other thing that said, I’m definitely not supposed to do this. And I’m like, oh god. So this polarization of parenting decisions, I feel like this is such, what’s the word? It’s presenting itself in the exact way in this one question. It’s a snapshot of this total pattern out in parenting right now, which is like, oh, I feel like the stakes are high. Everyone’s telling me I should do this, but then this, I know I shouldn’t do it that way. Now I’m stuck.

Dr. Rebecca (04:35):

And it’s such a good, again, meta lesson about how we take in information. I tell my clients all the time, if you find one post that is telling you absolutely do this, and another post that is telling you absolutely do not do this, I can almost guarantee you that chances are you’re doing your best if you land somewhere in the middle unless one of them is like don’t ever lock your kid in a closet or something that you know is correct based on your instincts. But if it’s like, don’t give them any processed sugar, let them eat all the processed sugar they want, and there’s research supporting both methods. What if you just found your way to a middle ground.

Dr. Sarah (05:15):

Also, and you just made me think of this, which is so important I think, is that okay, middle ground can be confusing for parents because it doesn’t mean I’m going to push you a little right now and then not push you a little right now. It means sometimes I’m going to push you and other times I’m not going to push you. But the actual behavior has to pick a lane and then we have to recognize that in the aggregate we’re going to be falling somewhere in the middle. I can get that being confusing when people are like, it’s not black or white, it’s gray. Be in the middle space. Do something kind of in between, right?

Dr. Rebecca (05:59):

It doesn’t mean be wishy-washy, right? It means over time it’s okay to go one way or the other thing. And then parents will also say, but then am I not? Because they read so much about consistency. It’s like, well then isn’t my kid going to learn? I’m not consistent. I mean this goes back to an episode that we need to have once every few months on just the problem with the mass parenting industrial complex. But I dunno, maybe we go to this, maybe now is a good time to sort of hone in on this particular parent’s question.

Dr. Sarah (06:32):

But I think we can even in the context of, because I do think there’s a genuine question this parent is asking, which is I know I need to stretch him sometimes and push him to do things. I also know that if he’s got a temperament where things are overwhelming for him and it’s just overstimulating, I want to live within the bounds of what he’s physiologically capable of tolerating. And I’m not going to put him in situations that are, for example, if it’s just too loud that I’m not going to put him in a bounce house that’s just too loud for him or whatever. Bounce houses may or may not be loud, but you get my point. So then parents get stuck being like, I don’t really know how to be middle pass about this. And then I do end up being inconsistent.

Dr. Rebecca (07:20):

I think what occurs to me with this question and a lot of questions like this, and I always come back to this so you can laugh at me, but it’s sort of love and limits. And that’s like I’ll bring, that’s your book, that’s my book, that’s my thing.

Dr. Sarah (07:37):

Go get her book.

Dr. Rebecca (07:41):

So in this context, you want to empathize, which is parent clearly does. You want to understand your kid’s temperament. You want to get that your kid is not just trying to make your life difficult, your child is having feelings that are real and that are important and you want to put in some limits, which as I like to say are not just rules. They’re also structures and systems and in particular with kids that have this kind of potentially anxious temperament kind of predictability to help them feel contained and safe. So what I might do with this situation, what I might recommend is what if you chose two days a week that you’re going to schedule a play date or you’re going to go to the pool or whatever, and you have kind of a visual calendar, which I always recommend, and this is why so often parents are like, my kid was willing to do everything at school but nothing at home.

(08:33):

It’s like, well, but in school they have a schedule, they talk about it in advance, they point to it on the wall. So much is about these kids, especially kids that feel like the world can be big and overwhelming and unpredictable. Can we shrink their world a little bit? Can we say, okay, this week we’re going to have a hangout day on Monday, Tuesday I scheduled a play date with Colin and then your kid, no, I don’t want to go on play date. And you say, okay, but it’s not till Tuesday. We have plenty of time to build up till then. I just wanted you to know what’s coming. And then as it gets closer, you can practice deep breaths or practice coping or whatever it is. But I think I would start with this kid, with kid again supporting their experience while stretching them a little bit in an advanced and predictable way.

Dr. Sarah (09:24):

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca (09:24):

I’m curious how you would feel about that.

Dr. Sarah (09:29):

I think your point about it being summer versus school is so key to this question. This is a huge transition to go from a structured five days a week of all day knowing what’s going on, and most of the time a 6-year-old, their kindergarten or first grade classroom is going to look the same every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and their week is the same every week. So maybe they have a couple specials or whatever, but it’s always on the Wednesday. Everything is really predictable. So this kid is coming off of a very predictable rhythm to his week and day in an environment that he’s had a whole school year to adapt to. My guess is that this may be a child who maybe struggled at the beginning of this new school year to get used to that and you saw similar resistance or wanting to pull back or feeling overwhelmed.

(10:31):

And then as they kind of figured it out, they’ve settled in and now we’re at a new transition and kids who struggle with this stuff are going to have, we’re going to see a spike in these kinds of resistance behaviors every time there’s a big transition. And the more we can anticipate that and help prepare them for that and prepare our own environment for creating more, like you said Rebecca, more predictability, more rhythm, more structure. I’m not saying you need to have first grade in your kitchen. It’s still summertime. It’s still fun, and we’re practicing being more spontaneous and flexible and being in settings that are less familiar, less rhythm, less known. But what are the things to your point that you could pull in that help anchor this child visual calendar? That’s such a kindergarten, first grade thing that’s super helpful. It gives a lot of agency and control to a child’s ability to orient and plan. And then the other thing, I don’t know how much this mom backed off of day camp saying day camp play dates at the park. Even birthday parties, right? Birthday parties are one-offs and I find them to be highly…

Dr. Rebecca (11:57):

We did a whole episode on birthday parties.

Dr. Sarah (11:59):

We’ll link that one, your kid doesn’t like the birthday parties. That’s a great place not to stretch them. They’re unpredictable. They’re not part of the routine. They can be, they’re so loud, so loud, but they’re also super variable. You never know what you’re going to get, so it’s super hard to prepare you as the parent going into a birthday party have no idea if there’s going to be five kids or 45 kids. And so it’s just like if you’re asking…

Dr. Rebecca (12:25):

Yeah. Skip the birthday, listen to our episode on birthdays.

Dr. Sarah (12:27):

Yes. But, if you’re asking which things to pull to hold firm on and which things not to day camp to me feels like, and again, if you’ve already decided, because he wasn’t really going to do, he was super resistant to do day camp. So you said, okay, we’re not doing day camp. Totally fine. If however, you signed him up for day camp and now he’s resisting, I’d hold on that one day camp is one of those things that it might be really hard at the beginning for him to get used to this transition, this new rhythm, this new routine, but ultimately that actually might be really grounding for him to have a pretty routine camp is actually much closer to the rhythm and school than free for all every single day of the week at home, assuming you’re not going to be able to just be a hundred percent available to them that entire time. Having some camp counselors to help you out there might be really nice. But the play dates at the park, that one is like that middle space. It’s not like the birthday parties where it’s a totally random grab bag. It’s also not nearly as structured as day camp. Can we make play dates at the park? Something that, to your point, Rebecca, we build in, so it’s a Tuesday thing we do. It’s predictable and whether it’s someone meets us at the park or we just go to the park, but we’re building in something, we’re taking something that could feel unpredictable and we’re making it part of the routine. I think that’s also a great way to stretch a kid who’s feeling really resistant to things.

Dr. Rebecca (14:08):

Yeah, and it’s interesting as you were talking and you were talking about the difference between the school year and the summer for kids and what a huge transition that is, that transition goes for parents as well and guardians also. But I think one place that, and I may be reading between the lines inaccurately for this question, but it’s almost like it’s summer. It’s not like he needs to learn to read. It’s easier for kids to enforce boundaries in the school year like, well, really, I can’t have my kid not go to school. They’re learning important skills, or I really want my kid to learn piano lessons or whatever. Whereas it’s sort of like, really, I’m going to force them to go to day camp. They almost feel bad about it, but actually what you said is so true, which is whether it’s camp or school and they’re learning academic skills or just being out in the world, the routine and the structure is so helpful for kids, and so it’s okay, you can give yourself permission as a parent, even though that missing a day here and there of day camp perhaps is less important than a day here in their school.

(15:13):

But it’s also okay to hold the line the way that you would with school and just be like, this is what we do. It’s a Wednesday, it’s a camp day, and then again, if your kid really resists camp, it might be that you build in, they actually only go four days a week as the summer goes on or whatever. But it’s okay to be strict about boundaries in the summer also, even though for summer for adults, we’re so excited about the opposite and sometimes we conflate our own experience with our kids’ experience.

Dr. Sarah (15:45):

Yeah, that’s such a good point. One other thing that I’m thinking of is that, so this parent said this is the social stuff, they’re resistant to group activities or maybe some of it’s the sensory stuff too loud or it’s too overwhelming or chaotic. But also whenever a kid is wanting to avoid things, especially, and this may not be this kid, but just in general, if a kid’s starting to want to avoid things that especially that maybe they didn’t previously want to avoid. I always wanted to look a little bit deeper under the hood there, is there something that happened that didn’t feel good? Is there some area of lagging skills around navigating social situations that are building up to a, I want to avoid this. I just don’t feel like it ends up feeling good. That’s different than sensory sensitivities and finding an environment like a camp or whatever that can be appropriate for their sensory needs.

(16:51):

And if camp’s way too hot and way too overwhelming for a kid, yeah, maybe it makes sense to do half day or maybe you find a camp that has a lot of water play or whatever. I mean, I think you can find camps or activities that fit the needs of a child better, so it could just be that the match isn’t there, and so that’s worth looking at, but sometimes it’s also, there’s actually something that’s happening that isn’t feeling good, and the tendency to want to avoid that is actually what is showing up as resistance to the place where that thing is happening. Is there a kid that’s not being so nice? Are you having a conflict with some people that you’re not really, you’re really struggling to navigate? So that’s where I just feel like it’s worth at least checking on that path because it could also be that there’s a social challenge, either like a social skill deficit that we want to build up those skills, or there could even be my kid’s getting bullied or there’s a particular kid that’s just making it really unfun for my kid to be there and we have to figure out how to navigate that or, so it could be broader things or it could be an acute issue.

Dr. Rebecca (18:09):

Yeah, I think that’s important. Although I will say that odds are it’s not the latter. Just if you’re listening to this as a parent and you’re like, oh, gosh, I didn’t think to explore it. I always go to when parents get anxious about this stuff, it’s like especially also because if you ask your child, a lot of times it’s not like you actually get information.

(18:31):

You might get grunting, you might get, I don’t know. I don’t know if there is a child picking on your child or if there is a social issue and you are not sure about it, there will be more information you will get. It’s okay. Don’t, because what I really wouldn’t want to happen in this situation is that a child is already anxious around this whole topic and then a parent approaches them with anxiety. Is something happening? Is it okay? Did you get picked on? Did you get, and then it becomes a whole thing. I think you’re 100% right that can be happening and you can try to ask your kid about it in a gentle way, and if you don’t get anything, just observe and just learn and you’ll know what you need to know.

Dr. Sarah (19:17):

Yeah. Chances are if there is something happening because there’s some other ways that you’re getting that information or you’re seeing it happen, you’re seeing it happen at the playground. Again, not I’m pivoting from if there’s an acute issue, chances are you are going to be told. But also if it’s sort of like this more chronic, like I am struggling to make friends and it’s not feeling good, and every time I try, it’s not landing in the way I want it to. And so now I’m just wanting to avoid that, that more global social issue. You’re going to see that at the playground, at the birthday parties, at play dates, and so you’ll probably have a hunch that it might be related to lagging social skills, which you can work on with your child. We’ve done episodes on therapeutic play dates. We can link those. I think those are very helpful and yeah, there’s other ways to build up those skills, but that might also be why the resistance could be happening, and it’s like instead of focusing on addressing the resistance, if we focus on building up the social skills, we might find the resistance goes away too.

Dr. Rebecca (20:31):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah (20:34):

Well, I hope this family figures out a plan based on what we’re recommending. We gave you lots of options based on lots of different scenarios, so hopefully something will land and keep writing in your, we really love them.

Dr. Rebecca (20:49):

We really do, and we’re all in this together, these questions. I’m like, oh yeah, I remember that. I remember. Remember when we would do that mean? So yeah, they’re so common and so important for everyone to hear and know that there’s solidarity among us.

Dr. Sarah (21:03):

Agree. Agree. Happy summer.

Dr. Rebecca (21:06):

Thank you. You too. And to everyone.

Dr. Sarah (21:09):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.