Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back to Beyond the Session segment of the Securely Attached podcast where we are going to be answering your listener questions with Dr. Emily Upshur.

Dr. Emily (00:53):

Hi. So good to be here.

Dr. Sarah (00:55):

So this one’s a real short one. Someone sent it in on an Instagram dm, but this parent asks, what are the best toys or activities to encourage independent play for my toddler? I’d love to support that skill, but I’m not sure where to start or what actually works. I ask myself that question a lot. I don’t have toddlers anymore, but I feel like independent play one, I just think there’s a lot of pressure on parents to nurture independent play, which I think is fantastic, and minus the pressure part because it’s a moving target.

Dr. Emily (01:30):

Yeah, I mean I think it’s almost counterintuitive, right? I was joking before we started saying you just ignore them until they get an activity, but I don’t mean that really. But what I mean is we’re really overly interfering sometimes in independent play. And so I think it is sort of like if you think about sort of more community oriented parenting, it’s like someone’s cooking dinner and the child is a toddler age kid is playing with the pots. That’s independent play, right? I just think you don’t have to make some magic. You don’t have to build a castle or set them up with blocks or it can just be very organic in the space. And that’s what I sort of mean by, let’s see what unfolds. Let’s see what maybe you follow a little bit of their interest, assuming of course it’s safe and all those things. But I almost want to give parents an out being like, you don’t have to always be with your kid and you also don’t always have to provide entertainment for them. Sort of that zone of help letting them figure it out within options that are, I think of toddlers as can they get into a basket that has safe toys for them at their fingertips so that you don’t have to be there? Great. Can they open a cabinet that has safe pots so that it’s not dangerous? Great. There are things you want to do to set up your environment or facilitate that a little bit, but outside of that, I think you can do, I just don’t want parents to feel so much pressure they have to do so much.

Dr. Sarah (03:05):

So in rye parenting, I’ve talked about it a bunch of times on this podcast, but if people aren’t familiar, R stands for resources for infant educators and it’s a parenting philosophy that it’s been around for a long time, but it’s one of the main principles of it is putting a lot of attention and energy and sort of presence into one-on-one caregiving moments. And then when you aren’t doing those, allowing time for independent play for your child, and so you’re putting your presence in the sort of intensive moments of parenting and you are really genuinely not bugging your kid outside of those moments and you’re letting them be to explore the world. One of the ways that they kind of set that up, and I think kids who are raised in this sort of parenting philosophy tend to have generally on average, who knows on all the data on this, but anecdotally tend to have more independent play skills because they’re given a lot of opportunity to play. And by play I mean explore their environment.

(04:12):

You were saying earlier, Emily, you don’t have to build a castle to get your kids to do an independent play. Your kids don’t have to build a castle to be doing independent play them knocking around some pots is play. So I think we also have to reframe what we think the picture that we’re trying to observe at the end to deem this successful that needs to go out the window. So one, you need to know developmentally, what does play look like for a toddler? How long does that last and what does it usually, there’s no outcome there. Running from idea to idea to idea to idea. It’s if you really track them, there’s probably a thread, but it’s not obvious to you. It doesn’t need to be for it to be play. Play is just experimenting with the environment, period. That’s it. And if they’re doing it independently, meaning they’re not requiring you to facilitate that, experimenting with the environment done, you have done independent play that has happened.

Dr. Emily (05:11):

I mean, don’t you think though parents are maybe putting themselves in a predicament? Because I know I did this myself, so pot calling kettle black, but parents are not wanting their kid to mess up the whole environment, so they’re like, but that’s not independent. That is part of the independent play, right? We’re almost avoiding it like, oh, and then I have to clean the playroom.

Dr. Sarah (05:33):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it’s so much easier. And again, me saying this as the person doing it not from on high telling parents what to do, it was so much easier for me to give my kids television than to let them go destroy the play space.

Dr. Emily (05:50):

Independently.

Dr. Sarah (05:51):

Independently was like both of those things would get me some time for myself, but one has more work on the backend for me and the other doesn’t. Although that’s not totally true because if I let my kids watch tv, then they would just be melted, grumpy, little jerks for the rest of the night. So paying either way.

Dr. Emily (06:09):

My thing is sort of like, I think we both want it, but I think that parents are so overwhelmed legitimately and have so much going on that there is a little bit of resistance to, because our fantasy of what independent play might be nice to take out the toys.

Dr. Sarah (06:25):

Right, two hours of they building this Rue Goldberg thing all by themselves at four and they’re brilliant.

Dr. Emily (06:32):

And they clean the paintbrushes and put them back.

Dr. Sarah (06:36):

But also I do think, yes, there’s the avoidance because we think, ugh, it’s going to be messy, it’s going to be annoying. I’m going to have work to do later. We also sometimes avoid it because of this, what I believe is an incorrect belief that it has to be complex. It has to be enough set up. They need a prompt that needs to be stimulating enough. It needs to be educational enough or engaging enough, otherwise they’re not going to care. Especially as a toddler, we’re talking two, three years old, 1, 2, 3 years old, less is so much more. And they’ve done tons of studies on this that show kids who are in a room with a few toys play so much longer and the play has so much more complexity than kids that are in the same size room with twice as many or three times as many toys. They play less and the play is less complex. So we know that less is more. And I also think, yeah, you were saying something Emily that I think is also rye has an answer for this, which is the, okay, but this is going to be, they need my supervision in the kitchen. It’s not safe or it’s going to be a giant mess. So what rye kind of encourages parents to think about ahead of time is something called a “yes space.”

Dr. Emily (07:51):

Mhmm.

Dr. Sarah (07:53):

And it can be anything, but it’s basically some type of a designated space that’s enclosed in some capacity. A lot of rye parenting will use baby gates or playpens or things. As your kid gets bigger, you need more space. But really a small kid doesn’t need that much space and they actually don’t mind the enclosure. The idea is not to cage your kid, but it’s to basically create some sort of space boundary. And then inside that space, the reason it’s called a yes space is because it’s literally, there should be no reason for you to need to say no as your kid is navigating that space, meaning, no, don’t touch that, that’s not safe or No, no, no, don’t climb on that. You could fall or No, no, no. That’s not for you to touch. So everything in this space is both appropriate and safe, but also accessible.

(08:53):

They don’t need you to execute the ideas that they generate in this play space, and it does not need to be a fancy giant playroom. In fact, oftentimes if you are not in the area, they will have a harder time staying in that, right? So a lot of times a good yes space is a playpen in the kitchen while you’re cooking or a segmented off section of the kitchen while you’re in there cooking or it’s mobile, you move it around. That’s I think a really helpful place to start, especially for really little kids who don’t tolerate being independent. And by independent, I mean I think we’re picturing separate from really independent just means I’m driving the play. It doesn’t mean I’m alone in a room by myself.

(09:41):

They might be playing and self-generating their behaviors and orienting their own attention and sustaining their own attention and seeing an idea through to the end of their idea. That’s independence that may not be accessible to young children if they are separate from you. So I think that’s also a distinction.

Dr. Emily (10:04):

Yeah, I mean I also think though, when you were saying what does independent play mean? What the families I work with often are meaning, can you just leave me alone for a few minutes so that I can do something? So that goes into your, what’s developmentally appropriate in terms of time spans for children to be independent and also what is your involvement? So I would still consider independent play if you have your children adjacent to the kitchen and they’re occasionally talking to you while you’re cooking dinner, but they’re majorly staying in their yes zone and doing what they need to do, you can still be a little involved and it be fairly independent. So I do think that that’s a really important, I think our wish for just more independence is also just a break to some extent in our society. And I want to be really careful to say, yeah, that might not be age appropriate. Your 10-year-old might be able to play alone in a different room.

Dr. Sarah (11:02):

“Alone play” and “independent play” are not necessarily the same thing. Independent play is not referring to who is there, it just means who’s driving the play, who’s generating the ideas, who’s sustaining the attention, who’s iterating. That’s what the independence is in reference to.

Dr. Emily (11:23):

And I think I was joking a little in the beginning, you have to ignore your child enough for them to get involved in something, but there is some seriousness to that. For me, I think we’re very over-responsive culturally in parenting to some extent. We feel like we have to respond right away or respond within five seconds. Or I think I learned this a lot having multiple children where I just could not get to the third child through my other two children’s needs for a while, and guess what? She learned how to play independently much better than my other ones. So I don’t mean to neglect your child by any means, but I do think maybe pause, don’t respond right away, stretch that a little bit more. Maybe use your voice instead of physically going closer. There are just some ways that I think we can stretch out that as well. So that gives a little bit more of that independence.

Dr. Sarah (12:18):

So we talked about all the things that we think are important to know about and that would help build skills around independent play. But I’m just really rereading the question. And they specifically have asked, what are the best toys and activities to encourage independent play? So let’s throw some of that in there just for fun.

Dr. Emily (12:37):

I know what you’re going to say.

Dr. Sarah (12:38):

What am I going to say?

Dr. Emily (12:40):

You love that climbing structure?

Dr. Sarah (12:42):

Yes, I do. I think gross motor stuff is super amazing. Obviously remember independent versus unsupervised, not always the same thing. So if you have a toddler and you’re giving them gross motor equipment to play on independently, you may want to be in that room and that’s okay.

Dr. Emily (13:01):

You might just have a padded floor, but okay.

Dr. Sarah (13:04):

Yeah. And again, if you have a 1-year-old, sure, I would maybe watch them on one of those, what are they called? Pikler triangles? Yeah, Pikler triangles.

Dr. Emily (13:13):

Yeah, that’s exactly it.

Dr. Sarah (13:14):

And by the way, I’m not an affiliate, but the best company…

Dr. Emily (13:17):

You love that thing.

Dr. Sarah (13:18):

The best company that makes these is called RAD Furniture, R.A.D. I’ll find the link and put it in the show notes. Honestly, I just really like this company, zero affiliate. I love them. They have such a cool ethos to their company. They love kids, they make really good quality stuff. I also like it because they fold up so you can have ’em slide under just made so smartly. Love it. And obviously since my kids have gotten older, they’ve come up with even cooler things. But the Pickler triangle is the gold standard rye independent play gross motor development to, and it’s anything. That’s why, okay, so one of the reasons why I like that Pickler triangle and any other types of toys that would be on my list, and obviously it changes by age a little bit, but the best toys are open-ended, which means they do not have one single use case. They can be kind of anything. And also toys that can construct things. Again, they can become anything, but you can layer on the complexity of the play because you can build. So I love, this is for older kids, but I love make do, have you heard of these things, Emily? I have some in our office. Oh my God, they’re now my birthday. Go-to gift for every kid. This isn’t for toddlers. Although honestly, as a parent of a toddler, you might like to play with your kid on these, but they’re these blue plastic screws that come with also completely child safe saws, screwdrivers, and…

Dr. Emily (14:57):

Oh yeah, we have those.

Dr. Sarah (14:58):

Perforators and therefore constructing things out of cardboard. This company is so cool. I literally buy every time they go on sale, I buy 10 packs of them and give them as birthday presents for everybody all year long. Because again, the perfect birthday present can be any age, can be any gender, can be, it’s just such a ubiquitous gift. I dunno. I love ’em. You cannot have enough too, because you can build such cool things with that.

Dr. Emily (15:26):

That’s how I feel about Magna-tiles.

Dr. Sarah (15:28):

Magna-tiles is another one. You can never ever have too many Magna-tiles.

Dr. Emily (15:31):

Perennial. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (15:32):

My husband might disagree because they’re all over our playroom, but…

Dr. Emily (15:35):

They’re too, but it’s like my kids are, my oldest is, I don’t know, the 14-year-old doesn’t play with them, but literally the other ones still will pull them out on a rainy day.

Dr. Sarah (15:43):

We have had a solid, and there’s no signs of it slowing down, four or five years of Magna-tile play in our home.

Dr. Emily (15:54):

I would say the other thing I want to add to your list of generalities is can you have some bins on the floor? Right?

Dr. Sarah (16:01):

Accessibility.

Dr. Emily (16:02):

Accessibility. If this listener wants real suggestions, like a magnet tile bin on the floor or on a low shelf is a really feasible thing for it. So I think you have to think about that. Yes, space or even just a yes thing, right? Giving it, giving a toy that can be on the floor, easy to access, dump out, pour out, put back in, that kind of thing.

Dr. Sarah (16:28):

Ooh, dump out. Pour out is another thing that’s worth mentioning. So also, there’s some key developmental tasks that kids are kind of working through at different ages, and you will see this in their play and offering them things that match those tasks will extend their play significantly. So toddlers, especially younger toddlers, are very much into the collect dump, collect dump. As they get older, they get into the sort, and then as they get a little older, they get into more of a construct. I think I’m getting there. I’m sure there’s more nuance to it, but you will see a one-year-old loves to gather things in buckets and then dump them out. So give them buckets with little things to fill and dump. They also at that age, and it genuinely does not matter what gender or whatever these kids are care giving toys. So ies or dolls with bottles or blankets or beds, they love to soothe and nurture. And so that’s actually a developmental task that they’re working through and that’s related to separation. And a lot of kids this age are having to practice separating from caregivers and attachment figures more. And so they’re working that out by expressing care to their toys.

Dr. Emily (18:05):

Or I think it’s also tasks that kids have a lot of exposure to. So for my kids, it was like doctor’s, kids, kids go to the doctor, guess what? All the time. So they repeat that kind of play for mastery, right? Like, oh, I’m going to do this. Or a vet kit or something like to your point, the care piece, but also personal mastery of experience in your own life.

Dr. Sarah (18:28):

And same thing with the Kleen that you know, that red little map kit, every kid loves that because they watch us do that stuff and it makes them feel big like us. They model the things they see at home. And that’s also part of this developmental play. If we think about the function of play, play is the earliest form of our species efforts to make sense of our world and build skills. Play is a skill building activity. It is building gross motor, fine motor, interpersonal, self-regulation, problem solving, identity, all these things. That’s what play is for. And so when kids see us doing things, they want to emulate it in their play. Also, especially if you have siblings, if you have multiple kids having space that is safe and available for rough and tumble play, because guess what? They’re going to wrestle. They need to move and bump into each other and be physical. That’s super normal. Again, it doesn’t matter if you have boys or girls. Some boys do it more than other boys. Some girls do it more than other girls. There’s a spectrum of that kind of level of energy and sensory seeking, but it’s very, very normal and common and having a safe place for that to happen, like a matted floor, one of those foamy pad floor spaces is a good idea.

Dr. Emily (20:02):

Well, that’s a whole nother episode on independent play with other children.

Dr. Sarah (20:09):

Yeah, we should do a follow up on that.

Dr. Emily (20:10):

Yeah, because you’re making me think both. There’s two in there. There’s rough and double play and independent play at home with your siblings or your other children.

Dr. Sarah (20:19):

Which brings a whole new hope. We really shoot episode of that because there is truly, there’s so many other layers to that. What if they have different developmental needs, different ages. One wants to do Legos and the other one’s going to put the Legos in their mouth, like all the things. But I really hope this is helpful. Oh, I’ll throw one more thing in. Just in terms of activities, I can’t help myself. I just can’t help myself. So from a toy perspective, think of things just as a general that are open-ended, have multiple uses or model things in their life, but for activities, think about sensory experiences.

Dr. Emily (20:58):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (20:59):

Anything that’s going to have sensory, varied sensory experiences are going to be very fun and have a lot of shelf life for your kids.

Dr. Emily (21:09):

So you’re talking about texture.

Dr. Sarah (21:11):

Exactly. A bowl of cooked cold spaghetti. And if you don’t want a mess, put it in a Ziploc bag, tape that Ziploc bag shut, but throw some food coloring in there or something. Put it on the ground and let them just smush it around in the bag. It’s not going to be as messy. Or you could just give them a bowl of spaghetti and it’s messy. But that sort of squishy squ, that texture of the noodles. Some people hate it, but I think kids love it.

Dr. Emily (21:41):

You’re giving me the hebes? Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (21:42):

Foam. Foam. Actually Ziploc, especially for toddlers. Ziploc bags filled with stuff and then duct tape shut, like shaving cream.

Dr. Emily (21:54):

Duct tape it.

Dr. Sarah (21:56):

Shaving sensory bags, right? So you put shaving cream and then some, I don’t know, some rubber duck, little bath toys. Shut it up, tape it down and they can play with it. There’s some mess free ways to do some cool sensory play.

Dr. Emily (22:11):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (22:12):

Honestly, if you just go on Pinterest and type in sensory play ideas for toddlers that you’ll find a million things. But that again, for inspiration, not for pressure. Take one idea, not 10, and just try it. But don’t set up 50 million things and then get frustrated when your kid plays for four minutes. That really might be all they play. So that’s also, but sensory stuff, I love sensory stuff. Any other good ones or I think we’re good.

Dr. Emily (22:46):

I am not saying another thing.

Dr. Sarah (22:50):

Alright, we’ll have to listen in for our follow-up episode on how to do this with multiple children. Stay tuned.

(22:56):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.