405. Q&A: Why does my child go from being fine to melting down in a matter of seconds?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello, welcome back to the Beyond the Session segment of the Securely Attached podcast. I have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg here.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (00:50):

Hi.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:51):

Hi. We’re going to answer a listener question today. Are you ready?

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (00:55):

I’m always ready. Bring it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:56):

Okay. So here is our question. This parent writes, Hi, I have a five-year-old daughter who is super sweet and sensitive, but she also goes from zero to 60 when things don’t go her way. Like even small things. Turning off the TV, leaving the park, cleaning up, can escalate in a matter of seconds. She’ll start screaming, crying, sometimes throwing things, and it just feels really intense really quickly. So how can I set limits with her without it turning into this huge meltdown every time? Oh, I feel for this mama. I have been this mama. I am this mama.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (01:34):

I was going to say these are my kids, except for the gender.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:40):

I want to be like, it’s going to get better and it totally can get better, but also I want to reframe a little … Basically we don’t have all the information, but I want to reframe just maybe the lens with which this parent might be asking this question because she’s saying, how can I sell limits without it turning into a huge meltdown every time? And my answer is you might not, but also my question is how can we get comfortable with the idea that setting a limit might mean a meltdown and that that’s still an effective limit?That’s okay. It’s like setting and holding a limit sometimes comes with a meltdown. And then if we start to bring that into the process of like, this is my expectation, I am going to feel less frustrated by that outcome. And the meltdowns don’t last forever.That’s the thing.

(02:29):

It’s like in our resistance to this being a reality, sometimes we then do things that inadvertently make the meltdowns last for a really long time, but we could shorten them. We can reduce their frequency, duration, and intensity, but they’re probably for a while going to keep happening.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (02:49):

That’s, I think, a line from my book right there.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:52):

I think probably. So my other answer to your question is get Dr. Hershberg’s book, please.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (02:59):

It really will answer your question. You just mentioned sort of this idea of what I think of as jobs, right? It’s a parent’s job to set a limit and it’s a kid’s job to have feelings about it. And just because a kid has feelings about it doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong limit. And just because you set a limit doesn’t mean your kid’s not allowed to have feelings about it. In this scenario, both parties are doing their jobs. I will say also, and I think a lot about what you say around this, Sarah, is this idea of timing, because I actually think to the extent that this parent can work on the intensity, duration, and frequency of these meltdowns is going to depend on what they can put into place in terms of anticipating and in terms of softening, scaffolding, whatever word we want to use, that this child does go from zero to 60, right?

(04:00):

So something like turning off the TV, can we give warnings? Can we set a timer? Can we say, okay, now we’re going to do that hard thing. I’m going to sit next to you. You can hold my hand and the TV is going off. Sort of like joining with your child when you set a limit like that. All those things I just mentioned, we can go into any of them or none of them in more detail, but all of them are going to be more effective tools in my experience that we can suggest rather than some magic fairy dust you can use when that meltdown has already started.

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:41):

Right. Yeah, 100%. I think knowing as a parent that when I set and hold the limit on particular situations, even small things, because they might be small to me, but they’re going to feel perhaps big to my kid, turning off the TV is hard. Like that one is tricky because that activates all kinds of neurological circuitry that can turn into a techno tantrum real fast. But that one on the side, just because I think everyone can really appreciate that that lives in its own category sometimes, but leaving the park cleaning up, transitioning even just from like a preferred activity to a less preferred activity, like these feel like mundane, easy, low lifts for us as grownups, and they can feel incredibly big to a five year old, to a 10 year old, to a 15 year old. But really, like the younger you are the bigger these things feel.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (05:41):

To a 50 year old, I just turned 50.

Dr. Sarah Bren (05:44):

Especially sensitive people.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (05:46):

But seriously, sensitive or exhausted. We always on this podcast say like, “And make sure she’s had a snack.” I will also freak out about something really little if I am stressed and exhausted and anxious. So a lot of times it is this quote unquote little thing, although yes, I agree, Sarah, that thing can be big to a kid. It’s also the backdrop of the day.

(06:10):

And my guess would be that there are times that each of the things that this listener mentioned, the leaving the park, turning off the TV, go very well. She doesn’t remember them as much, right? We never do. And my guess would be, there’s not always a reason, right? Sometimes these things are random, but other times you can trace it to how well the child slept the night before or how exhausting and overwhelming their day was or whether they had a decent lunch, which is not to say that as a parent, you need to make yourself crazy thinking about you can control all of these things because you can’t. And that goes to our first point about your kid is just doing their job by having a reaction and emotional reaction to these limits. But it is to say there’s often a lot more going on.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:58):

And I think a really important strategy that I recommend parents do when they’re noticing…

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (07:03):

Is to track it. Is that what you we’re going to say?

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:07):

Yeah. It doesn’t have to be formal. Just look for patterns, right? If it tends to be when I’m in a rush or when the parent feels urgency or time constraint, my kid’s actually picking up on that and that’s really … So it’s like, oh, it feels like it’s never the same thing. And it’s like, oh wait, it’s always when I’m rushing that my kid starts to dig in or have really strong reactions or get really rigid. Or maybe it’s when the baby sibling’s around. So like same thing, same transition, same situation, like same challenge, quote unquote. They’re fine when the baby’s sibling’s not there, but they can’t do it when the baby’s sibling is. It’s like, oh, it’s not the transition. It’s maybe just the threat. Your attention is divided and I’m feeling that. And so now I’m again, more activated, more sensitive. What’s hitting their sensitivity buttons and turning that sensitivity volume up, AKA then making them more rigid or more reactive, making it harder for them to be flexible.

(08:17):

Huge one, snacks, like go to the basics. Are they hungry? Are they tired? Have they been holding their S together all day and now they don’t have much less left in the tank to like be cooperative and flexible and regulate? If you know- Leaving the park is always really tricky. I would definitely plan for snack before I leave for the park.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (08:46):

And to talk about leaving the park, and to talk about how it always feels tricky. And can that reduce the … To say like, “Leaving the park, I’d love to go to the park. I’m so excited. Here’s a snack, whatever.” On the way to the park, start talking about leaving the park. Just so you know, when we go to the park, we’re not going to sleep in the park, that would be so silly. At some point we’re going to have to leave the park. What’s that going to be like? We talk about that sort of inoculate, what’s that going to be like? What’s going to be tricky? It might feel like this. And what are okay behaviors to show these feelings and what are not okay behaviors to show these feelings? And again, depending on the day and your relationship with your kid and your kid’s personality, you’re not necessarily going to talk about it all in that way, but those are different ways to have that conversation.

(09:31):

I think about the acronym from, I think it’s from the 12 step world originally, but like halt that whenever you’re having a big reaction to something, are you hungry, angry, lonely, or tired? And the same thing goes for kids. Are they hungry? Are they angry and they’re just angry at everything. So yeah, now they’re angry at leaving the park. It has nothing to do with the park. They’re just … Are they lonely? In which case, do we up that connection time? Not literally lonely per se, but like is this time they need a hug? They need a hug. They need us to just … Are they tired? Are we staying in the park now that it’s getting staying lighter late? Are we staying later than we had and they’re spent and we actually should have left a half an hour earlier? Those four things really are an acronym for a reason and they’re not a crutch.

(10:26):

It’s not just like, “Oh, every time my child’s having feelings, I’m going to just give them some goldfish.” But you’re probably, even if that’s your approach, going to hit it right like 25% of the time.

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:39):

Yeah. And I mean, I think while it’s totally okay to give your kids some goldfish, literally as the carrot to get out of the park, totally okay, please don’t give yourself a hard time for bribing your children to get out of the park smoothly with some goldfish, but in addition to that, giving them like a solid snack before so that they’re not so hungry, sometimes a lot of the stuff we try in the moment as a reactive strategy or a more desperate strategy is 10X more effective if we use that same strategy before we hit the hot moment.

(11:25):

So just anticipating ourselves where our kids need a little bit more bolstering before we go somewhere. But one other, because this person specifically gave an example of like also she freaks out when it’s time to clean up, I could see that being a couple different things. I could see it being like a transition, like the end of the fun thing and having to transition to a less desired activity cleaning up. So that’s just like frustrating. It could be that it feels interruptive, like I’m in the middle of something and I want to complete my idea or my intention before it’s time to clean up. So one thing could be looking to try to like track your child a little bit. Are they in the middle of something and you’re coming in and saying, “Now it’s time to clean up or are you … ” So it’s like, yes, it’s about giving them a warning, but more than that, it’s about looking and watching like what are they working on and can you find like a natural kind of conclusion to whatever they’re focused on? Try to identify what they’re doing, what their idea is and look for the end of it.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (12:32):

And if you can’t identify it, you can ask. Hey we’re going to have to stop doing this soon. Do you want to finish the tower that you’re building? Or it looks like you’re playing, you’re dressing up this doll. How about after we get her shoes on? I mean, you can ask and suggest ending points.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:53):

But I think kids are more amenable to transitioning when they feel like they’ve concluded something, when they feel like they’re in the middle of an idea or in the middle of an action and we insert our pivot point for them there, it can feel really, not just abrupt, but it can feel very intrusive and they can get very irritated by that. And when our kids are irritated, especially sensitive kids, guess what happens? They get really rigid and they get really entrenched and they can get very explosive very, very fast. So I think that things to be looking for, I don’t know exactly what the triggers are for any individual child in any particular moment, but possible ones include, right? Yeah. The HALT acronym, but also feeling interrupted or feeling like they’re unfinished. Another one that also goes with cleaning up is feeling overwhelmed by like the task.

(13:50):

Is the task too abstract, complex, overwhelming. I know when I go into a room to clean it up, sometimes I’m just like, “I don’t know where to start. I don’t know. ” And I just like walk out of the room. I’m like, “Screw this. I’m not cleaning now.” I don’t know where to start. And so a lot of times we’ll say, “Hey, clean up the playroom, play time’s over, clean the playroom.” And it’s like…

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (14:17):

Too big.

Dr. Sarah Bren (14:19):

Yeah, it really is dysregulating the overwhelm that can come at five years old or I’m 41 years old if you can’t figure out the first step. So break it down, say, “Okay, we’re going to play time’s over, it’s time to start cleaning up. Why don’t you put all the puzzle pieces back in the box and I’ll put the crayons away.”

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (14:42):

I was going to say, which is two things that you’re, I want to make sure to highlight them both as opposed to this group.

Dr. Sarah Bren (14:47):

Right, but I’m going to do this, you do this.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (14:50):

Right. Well, one is chunking it and one is joining in the activity. There’s plenty of times that you’ll tell a five year old to clean up and they won’t clean up, but if you say, “Let’s do it together, you do this and I do this. ” And then parents will say, “But why shouldn’t they be able to do it by themselves?” It’s like, well, they will be, but as we’re scaffolding them, if they’re a kid that has a hard time with that, it can help to be present and be involved. It can also help to gamify it, right?

(15:21):

So it’s, let’s see if you put the puzzle pieces back in the box, see if you can do it before I count to 10 or whatever, turning things into a race can be good. The other thing that occurs to me, if I think about a kid having a meltdown with cleanup that comes up a lot is just the fact that kids have slower auditory processing speeds than we think. And so a parent will say, “It’s time to clean up.” They may even say it perfectly, like, “It’s time to clean up. You put the puzzle pieces away. I’ll put the books on the shelf.” And then their child doesn’t immediately respond, doesn’t sort of jump up and start doing it. And immediately we as parents who are usually in some sort of a time crunch will say like, “Did you hear me? It’s time to clean up.” And we bring in intensity to it and actually often if we just pause, if we pause a few seconds, especially if we make sure that our child hurt us, maybe we made eye contact or touched them on the shoulder, they’re on their way to … Because so often a child will be like, “I am.” And so there’s tension sometimes in just the speed that we expect them to react to what we’re asking them to do.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:30):

Right. And even in a situation where a kid did hear you, is ignoring you and is waiting for you maybe perhaps to start yelling at them or getting more intense, that pause could be very … Wait, I’m intrigued. You might actually attract their attention by pausing because they’re sitting there ignoring, quote, ignoring you, continuing to finish their drawing. They’re really tracking you in that moment. There’s the kid that is actually just slowing something or they took it in, they’re wrapping up and they’re preparing to clean, but you’re not aware, so you are assuming they aren’t and so you’re getting upset. But there’s also the kid who really did hear you, is absolutely ignoring you, is waiting for you to have a reaction, and then you not having the reaction. The intervention on your end is the same either way. You’re going to sit and pause and wait for them to register some response to you.

(17:41):

The kid who’s actively ignoring you waiting for the fight is probably going to start looking at you, going to stop, pause their coloring, looking at you, and you’re just going to be sitting there looking back at them and once you’ve got their attention, then you might say like, “So are we feeling ready now? We’re going to start…” Because now you’ve got them and they’ve exited their world and they’re reconnected with you. And I just think sometimes less is more, be slow.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (18:16):

And what you just said was actually what I was going to say, which is that whole idea of like, let me know when you’re ready, not in a punishment, “You let me know when you’re ready,” but just in a very … It actually doesn’t matter typically if a child starts cleaning up now or two minutes from now, and once you plant the seed of like, “Okay, it’s time to start cleaning up, you let me know when you’re ready.” Usually, again, if you’re standing there and looking at them, they will come around and they feel some agency and some control and they’ll say, “Okay, now.” Then you’re like, “Great, let’s do it. ” And again, that urgency that we bring to these tasks, whether because we’re actually in a time crunch or because we just get so triggered when our kids are not immediately compliant, that dynamic goes away and the whole thing goes smoother.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:04):

Right, because we’re actually…

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (19:05):

Don’t know if we’re still talking about this question on meltdowns.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:07):

We’re talking about holding limits, setting and holding limits, but that is like in that quiet waiting, that is exactly what you’re doing. You’re holding the limit. You are holding space for the limit and you’re being somewhat patient and not hot, but you are being responsive and also you’re just modeling like, “I’m holding the frame.” I think sometimes we feel that if a kid is not immediately responsive to us setting a limit, we have to escalate it to be effectively holding it and actually know we will really hold it.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (19:46):

Right. Consistent. Or giving in. Like if I let him play two more minutes, I’m giving in and he’s not going to know who’s boss. All that idea of respect and who’s in charge gets activated for us when you’re 100% right that if we sort of make it clear what’s going to happen and what needs to happen and that we’re the ones letting them know and then we just pause, they will at times come join us when we wouldn’t have if we pushed it further too soon.

Dr. Sarah Bren (20:19):

Right. My head space is always like, I’m always like, how do I channel my inner kindergarten teacher? And I’m not a teacher, but I like think of my kids kindergarten teachers and I’m like channeling them because like I guarantee you, my kids’ kindergarten teachers never got into battles with them about cleaning up. They just said, “It’s clean up time and maybe they’ll sing a song, but they hold the frame and they continue to move on. ” And I get it, your relationship with your kid and their relationship with their kindergarten teachers, we’re talking about apples and oranges here for sure, but take a page from their book. They’ve figured this out. They are predictable, there’s a rhythm, they are consistent, they are calm, they guide them to the next step, but they follow, the kids just follow because they’re not getting into power struggles, they’re not escalating because there’s like a sturdiness and a trust that I think they just embody. At least my kids’ kindergarten teachers have always been just so freaking amazing. You just come and live in my house.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (21:31):

I know.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:34):

All right. Thank you so much, Dr. Hershberg. You’re brilliant as always. Oh, please. Everyone should 100% get her book, The Tantrum Survival Guide, because this is covered. Please, if you have a child who this question is you, that’s a worthwhile library edition.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (21:54):

Thank you, thank you.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:55):

Yeah. We’ll talk to you all soon. Keep sending us your questions. We love you.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (22:01):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah Bren (22:01):

Bye.

(22:01):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.