408. How to help your child have a healthier relationship with screens: The psychology behind what actually works with Catherine Price

Catherine Price (00:00):

Her daughter had been doing lots of FaceTime calls and Zoom calls, which I would say that’s probably better than texting back and forth, certainly better than social media. But what she said she started to notice is her 11-year-old daughter was paying a lot of attention to her appearance because she was in these calls where, just as we’re doing right now, we can see ourselves. And that was creating this level of self-awareness and insecurity in her.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:27):

Screens are one of the biggest pain points for parents right now. I get so many questions from parents who don’t want to give their kids a phone, but also don’t want them to be left out from social situations, which more and more seem to be happening on devices. So what can we do? Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist, mom of two, and the host of Securely Attached. Each week I sit down with leading experts in psychology, neuroscience, medicine, and child development to translate complex research into practical grounded insights that help you parent with more clarity and confidence. Today, Catherine Price is back on the show. Catherine is a science journalist and the bestselling author of How to Break Up With Your Phone and the Power of Fun. She spent years researching how technology shapes our behavior, our relationships, and our wellbeing. Catherine is also the co-author alongside Jonathan Haidt of the new book, The Amazing Generation, which takes the conversation about smartphones and social media directly to kids, helping them understand how these tools are designed to capture their attention and empowering them to make more intentional choices.

(01:34):

In this conversation, we talk about the psychology of what actually helps kids shift their relationship with screens, not through fear, shame, or control, but through insight, agency, and real buy-in. We explore why simply telling kids to get off their devices often backfires. What kids are really looking for when they turn to screens and how parents can create the conditions for more real world connection, independence, and fun. We also get into practical strategies from rethinking how kids communicate with friends to simple ways to start more productive conversations at home, that all can help you move out of the constant tug of war and into something much more collaborative.

(02:13):

Hi, Catherine. Welcome back to Securely Attached. I’m thrilled that you are back to talk with us again.

Catherine Price (02:26):

Thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:29):

Yeah. So a lot’s happened since the last time you’ve been on the show. In the world, in your life, you’ve published another book. It’s amazing things.

Catherine Price (02:42):

Yeah. It’s been a bit of a whirlwind since last we spoke because we talked about fun and since then, yes, worked on a new book for kids and even I myself am like, wait, what just happened? So it’s nice to have a moment to pause and kind of reflect on all this. And as you’re alluding to, there’s been so much, honestly, positive change in the world since last we spoke when it comes to kids and phones and social media in particular. So I’m excited to talk with you today.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:06):

Yes. And it’s interesting. Yeah, because I was just checking, I was like, “Oh, we just spoke with her.” And then I was like, “Oh my God, it’s been a year and a half.” And when you wrote How to Break Up with Your Phone, which was even before we had spoken, but we were talking a lot about that book. And I feel like I think it was a hopeful … I’ll link the episode in the show notes so we can go back because it was really worth listening to. But I think there were some hopeful things in there, but there was a lot of … It’s really tough.

(03:40):

We’re up against really big forces that are creating a lot of these tech pieces. And we can focus on what we can do at home. We can focus on what we can do to advocate in schools, but it’s really big. And I actually feel like a lot of the work that you’ve been doing since then, since we last spoke along and that you wrote The Amazing Generation with Jonathan Hate and laws are being changed. This work, this momentum that you are contributing to is changing systems, not just giving people tools. Tools are great, but changing systems is hard and impressive.

Catherine Price (04:25):

Yeah. There has been so much change. And I think a lot of that, I know society kind of waking up to this bigger issue, and then a lot of this has also been propelled by the massive success of John’s book, The Anxious Generation, which really has created a lot of momentum towards passing new policies, phone-free school policies, social media bans for kids under 16, states competing with each other to see which states are best at protecting children and then giving them more opportunities for real world play. So I definitely am still very concerned about the direction things are going with attack, but at the same time, I think there’s been so much positive movement. And now we finally have the first lawsuits going into court and getting some actual verdicts passed as just happened a couple weeks ago. So there’s movement on all fronts. And I think that that is so exciting and such a positive step forward. So in that regard, I’m very grateful and very excited and very personally grateful because my own daughter is now 11, so this is very much a race against time for me in terms of, how are we going to solve this problem?

Dr. Sarah Bren (05:30):

Yeah. Last we spoke, she was nine. And now she’s an 11 year old, what do you think has changed in your approach with parenting? Because I know my kids are still, they’re younger than your daughter. They’re still not yet deep in devices, but they’re dabbling. Like my daughter now has a friend that she met that lives not where we live and she will text her on my phone to her mom’s phone and they have a little like … I mean, she’s seven. It’s very limited, but she’s dabbling in this world a little bit. And I want her to be able to have a connection with this friend that lives in another state. And I’m also like, ” Oh, it’s starting. Oh my God. “So how have things changed for you as your daughter’s entered into like the 11s?

Catherine Price (06:30):

The levels she just did and things are definitely progressing in terms of her classmates tech use, I would say. She knows who her mother is, so I have that kind of built-in advantage there, I guess. But one thing I would say in terms of your particular situation, and I’m sure many listeners situation is that you do reach a point where your friends, sorry, your children have their friendships and they want to have independence and communicating with those friends. And often that starts in the form of text messages as you’re saying. Or it’s like, if it’s someone local, they’re trying to use your phone or get you to text the parents of the other kid to set up play dates. We definitely have that. And what I would say there is that I think there’s some tools that are actually really useful for parents to be aware of that can help give kids more freedom in that regard without sending them into this text-based world where their default mode of communication is text message because I don’t know how you guys feel, but I personally feel as an adult, I always get sucked into text message exchanges. It starts out with something really simple and then it gets into this like extended thing where after a certain point you’re like, ” Oh my God, this would be so much more efficient and more fun if we actually talked on the phone. “And also now I’m like dividing my attention between cooking dinner and sending this text message, having a text message conversation. So what I would say is that I actually have fallen in love with the concept of landline telephones.

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:52):

I am very intrigued.

Catherine Price (07:54):

The Ooma. I just happen to have my own Ooma. I think actually the batteries are dead on this. I have another one there. But for those people in my generation, you probably think about landlines as something expensive that you got rid of because it was part of your cable package and you’re like, ” I don’t need to have this. Thanks AT&T. No thanks. “You don’t need to do that anymore. There are these companies and they use your internet connection to place calls and that means that they’re extremely cheap. And what this does is…

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:18):

That’s cheaper than giving your kid a phone and then having to buy stuff all the time like apps and stuff.

Catherine Price (08:23):

Yes. Or just the data plan. I mean, even the friends and family thing is like more than anyway, it’s not expensive anymore and having a landline telephone is useful for both kids and adults. It’s useful for adults in the sense that the reason my husband and I got one is because we wanted to be able to put our smartphones away on the weekends or at night and not have to worry about missing an emergency call from say our parents. And so what we can do now is that we just set it to forward our calls to our smartphone to go to the quote unquote landline, the house phone, if you will. So from the adult perspective, it’s really useful. What I’ve recently come to realize is how amazing these are as tools for kids and really honestly very young kids because unlike a smartphone, you can actually give your kid freedom and autonomy to use the landline telephone to keep in touch with family members, to call their friends who live nearby or afar to arrange play dates.

(09:14):

And I think for kids, it’s very refreshing to have a situation in which they actually can have freedom. I remember reading a review where the person was saying, their daughter came up to them and said,” Do I have to ask you before I use it? “And she said,” No, you can just call your friends. “And the kid was like wide-eyed in today’s world, what other situation do kids have freedom? I mean, that’s kind of sad, but like to have the autonomy to do it. So all that is to say, I really love the idea of giving our kids the freedom to call friends on the phone and in addition to giving them freedom and autonomy and independence, it also teaches a really important life skill, which is how do you have a conversation, whether in person or on the phone, how do you talk to an adult?

(09:54):

How do you have etiquette around phone calls? But really on a basic level, how do you talk to people, which believe it or not is a skill that is really missing. A lot of people in Gen-Z will tell you, ” I feel like I can’t have a conversation. They would much prefer to text than call. They get anxiety attacks. Even as an adult, I found that I don’t … It’s a little awkward to call and I’m like, what happened? I didn’t grow up with these things.

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:15):

I know.

Catherine Price (10:15):

So get a landline. And then the other thing I would quickly say for friends from afar, our daughter has pen pals, old fashioned pen pals. If she met like my…

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:25):

Oh my gosh she would love that.

(10:26):

…best friend from journalism school. She lives in Mississippi. She and her daughter and my daughter met actually, I think only once in person, but they really enjoyed it. And now they have this pen pal relationship. And it’s just so lovely because many listeners probably remember the excitement of getting real mail, getting a note from your friend. It’s obviously slower paced. I mean, from the adult perspective, it gives your kid practice writing all that good stuff, but it’s just like a lovely way to communicate. And so I just throw that out there as a fun and yet forgotten option if your kid has say friends from camp, like have a landline telephone and then have the option for pen pals. But I do think that text messages can start to become problematic really quickly with kids. And then we’re basically training kids to be like us where we spend so much of our time texting with our friends instead of actually talking to them. And I just want fun to talk to people.

(11:13):

And I think, and this has been my ambivalence about it because I want her to have the connection and the autonomy, like the agency to like, I have something I want to tell my friend and I can go tell that to them. So like both of those things, my ability to communicate and have these relationships and have connection, but also get to decide when and where I have it, like to be the agent that drives it. I want both those things. What I don’t want is for her to be constantly checking my phone to see if this friend wrote back, because that I think is part of that like checking dopamine seeking loop that is very phone and very text, message, email.

Catherine Price (12:02):

Yeah, the dopamine driven.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:03):

Comment, the stuff, right? So I’m like, and thankfully, we have a lot of ingenuity and we are creative human beings and we create things to solve problems and people are starting to create products to solve these problems because yes, I think that having a landline or a kid’s phone that allows them, it takes what I want and removes what I don’t want.

Catherine Price (12:25):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:26):

And one other thing I was thinking as you were talking that I think is worth emphasizing is the lost art of communication, right? And like asynchronous text message communication is not … It lacks a lot of the serve and return of a human live action conversation, even if you can’t see the other person because like the landlines don’t give you that feature, which is fine. There’s an art and pen pal as well, like there’s an art of like communicating your thoughts in a coherent, full form way. But I was like, this is a relatively new phenomenon generationally. You and I probably, I know I certainly grew up talking to my friends on the phone. That’s how some of my deepest relationships formed was like when I was like doing homework.

Catherine Price (13:27):

You had the long cord. And I had to hide in my bathroom, like my chord because like my grandmother stayed with us a lot, she’d be in the bedroom. I was like, no, I’m like … Yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:34):

Absolutely.

Catherine Price (13:34):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:35):

And I would just sit in my room, I would spend hours doing homework, talking to a friend, like we would just do our homework and it was like we were in the same space together. And then that went away.

Catherine Price (13:50):

Yeah. And it is this intimacy. I would say, I actually think it’s the lack of visuals on a phone call that’s actually a good thing because you just reminded me. The reason I personally started thinking about these landlines for kids is that I have a friend, a former editor who told me about how her daughter had been doing lots of FaceTime calls and Zoom calls, which I would say that’s probably better than like texting back and forth, certainly better than social media, but what she said she started to notice is her 11 year old daughter was paying a lot of attention to her appearance because she was in these calls where, just as we’re doing right now, we can see ourselves and that was creating this level of self-awareness and insecurity in her. So she actually texted her … Ah, that’s funny actually that she did text, but she texted a bunch of other parents and said,” We’re thinking about giving our daughter a landline.

(14:36):

Would any of you get one too so that she has people to talk to? “And within one day, eight other families had gotten a landline. So I say that to point out that like a lot of other people want the same thing. You’re not alone if you’re like, ” Oh, that sounds great. “If you’re thinking that sounds great, I wish I could do that, but I don’t know if anyone else would be on board. Just bring it up to the parents of your kids’ friends because there’s a lot of people who are, and I just love that. It’s also very cute to see kids learn how to use the landline telephone. The other day I was on a work call and the phone rang and I think that’s never happened. It’s also weird, just as an adult to have a phone ring and so I was like, and I’m like, ” Who the heck is call? “This is just a random anecdote, but I thought it was so cute. I pick up the phone and I’m like, ” Hello. “And it’s like nobody answers. And then this little voice is like, ” Hello. “And I’m like, ” May I ask who’s calling? “Which is a phrase I haven’t said in decades and then this little voice just goes,” It’s Lila. “Obviously and I’m like, ” Oh, kids don’t know that there’s no caller ID. She didn’t know that you have to say it’s by name.

(15:41):

“And there was another time where I had to ask, may I take a message? And it was just such a funny interaction to realize, oh my goodness, this is something that adults have fallen out of practice with and that kids have never done. But my daughter actually was using her phone to prank call my parents after the refrigerator was running. And it’s so funny to realize that like, I don’t know, I feel like when I was a kid, prank calls was … You could get in trouble for that. And now it’s just so sweet. It’s like, please, may the children of the world call whoever they want and ask if their refrigerators are running. May we go, may we have that be the main source of concern.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:18):

Right. Can we go back to the simpler time? Yeah, it’s really…

Catherine Price (16:21):

I think it’s like moving forward. I guess it’s not about nostalgia for the past per se. It’s about bringing back the good parts of what we used to have. Wait, wait, wait. We all just kind of dove into this world where everything was digital and everything was text message based and we forgot that a phone, the word phone, it’s supposed to be about voice and talking. And we started to use these things in different ways. And now we’re at this moment of reckoning where we can say, wait a second, this actually doesn’t feel as good as some of the stuff we had in the past. Let’s go back to talking to our friends. Let’s give our kids freedom to do that. And it’s very simple. I think that’s what I really love is it’s simple.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:55):

It’s simple, but it’s important because sometimes simple is not intuitive. We are kind of trained to go towards the faster, the quicker, the more sophisticated solutions because we’ve been wired to do that, but sometimes slowing down.

Catherine Price (17:13):

Like we’ve been marketed to and convinced that’s what we’re supposed to be doing, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (17:17):

Absolutely. But this feels like an interesting parallel to segue to your book because The Amazing Generation, one of the things that you do in this book that I think is so well done and like really refreshing to see, and I think probably the reason why it’s resonating so much with kids, because first of all, well, let’s just start by talking a little bit about this book is kind of like a … It comes from … It pulls inspiration from the anxious generation, but it’s different, very meaningfully so. Not just that it’s written for kids, but the tone is really different and I have lots of thoughts on it, but first maybe just orient us too. For people who haven’t read the book or haven’t read Anxious Generation, like what the evolution from Anxious Generation to the Amazing Generation was and why did you write this book this way?

Catherine Price (18:16):

Sure. Yeah. So I’m really excited about how this book turned out. For those of you who are actually watching this, I can hold up a cover and you’ll see it’s very colorful.

Dr. Sarah Bren (18:23):

I will too.

Catherine Price (18:24):

If you flip through the book, there’s a graphic novel. Oh, nice.

Dr. Sarah Bren (18:27):

I got it.

Catherine Price (18:27):

There’s a graphic novel embedded in it by this amazing illustrator name is Cynthia Yuan Cheng, who did one of the babysitter books, Babysitter Club books. And there’s also just lots of engaging graphics and pop outs and stuff, profiles of young people who have chosen to not let their lives be dominated by smartphones and social media. So it turned out in a really beautiful way, I’m just absolutely thrilled by. So the story behind it is that Jon Haidt and I met, I’d been aware of his work since like 2006 with a book he wrote called The Happiness Hypothesis, but we met through TED because we both had done TEDTalks a couple years ago. He was working on what became The Anxious Generation. He gave a presentation that I saw and I went up to him and I introduced myself and told him about How to Break Up with Your Phone.

(19:09):

And he actually said, “Oh, you’re the fun person, which is a very funny way to be greeted.” And he’s like, “Someone just sent me your TedTalk on fun and said, I have to watch your talk on fun,” which was a lovely moment. So we started chatting and we were collaborating in the early days of the anxious generation, but then there was this desire to have the anxious generation turn into a young reader’s edition. And I used to be a middle school teacher and I like writing … Well, actually I hadn’t written a book for kids, but I like teaching. So I was like, “If you ever need help with that, let me know. ” So anyway, long story short, we ended up collaborating on the amazing generation. It started in concept as a young reader’s edition, but it quickly veered off of that. And as you’re saying, it’s not a young reader’s edition of The Anxious Generation because if anyone’s read The Anxious Generation, which I highly recommend reading if you haven’t, it’s a very adult focused, statistic heavy research backed book that’s incredibly important.

(19:59):

And as we were talking about is driving policy change around the world. But if you just translated that into kid words, parents would buy it, but kids wouldn’t read it. And to John’s great credit, he recognized that as well and gave me a lot of freedom to go in a different direction. So what ended up happening is it kind of became this melding of the anxious generation meets how to break up with your phone, meets the power of fun. And the idea was to help kid … Rather, the goal was actually to try to get kids buy-in to the idea of delaying the age at which they get smartphones, delaying the age at which they get social media, advocating themselves for phone free school policies, and advocating for their own right to have more independence and responsibility and free play in the real world. And if anyone’s read The Anxious Generation, you’ll recognize those four things as the four norms that John writes about in the anxious generation.

(20:49):

So that was the goal, was basically how do we get kids buy-in? And I think the reason it’s, and we can talk more about the reaction we’ve heard so far from kids and families, but it’s been truly amazing. I mean, make me cry amazing. And I think the reason that kids are actually internalizing its message and that it is actually succeeding in those goals is that we’re really telling the truth. We’re really just saying, “Hey kids, all of us have been manipulated by big tech. Your parents have too. And this book is going to teach you things that many of the adults in your life don’t know about how these products were designed, what the business incentives are behind them.” And then most importantly, it’s going to give you a path, a different path that you can take. And we frame it in the book, as you know, because you’ve read it, but as the tech wizards, so these people, companies who are trying to manipulate all of us into spending time on their products so that they can make money, which is not all tech companies, it’s not all people in tech.

(21:45):

Tech is not inherently bad, but there is this business model that’s designed to suck our attention from us. So these tech wizards on one side, and then this growing rebellion of young people, starting with kids in our readers target age groups, starting in nine on up, but also young adults and older teenagers who are saying, “Wait a second, I don’t want to give my life away to a technology company. I don’t want to be controlled by technology. I want to use tech as a tool, but not be used by tech. I don’t want to be the tool. And I want to, as we put it in the book, this is what we call the rebels code, is to use tech as a tool. Don’t let it use you. ” And then also, I want to have a life that’s full of real friendship and real freedom and real fun.

(22:23):

So in the book, we lay out a very concrete set of suggestions and ideas to help kids actually become rebels, as we call it, and to live life on their own terms. And I think that the reason it’s, as I was saying, resonating with kids is it’s telling the truth, it’s making them feel smarter than the adults in their life because honestly, if they read the book, they will know more about this than most adults in their lives and it’s giving them an inspiring, empowering path that they can choose to take and it’s giving them control. But it’s been so amazing to hear from real kids and real families because it’s one thing to have these dreams of what you hope your book will do. And it’s another thing to hear from real people who have read the book and to hear that’s actually achieving those goals for many kids and families.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:03):

Yeah. And I think it’s like you’re like, the goal is to get kids on board with this. And I was like, in the back of my mind, I’m like, so just a tiny little small goal, not a big one at all.

Catherine Price (23:16):

Yeah, good luck.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:17):

But it’s working. And I think one of the reasons it is, is because you’ve done something really different and really necessary that taps into, I think, kids’ developmental drives that people sometimes misunderestimate the value of, because I think, I mean, there’s a lot of tech talks happening at kids, right? We are at least trying to help get kids on board with this, right? But there’s also a ton of fear and negativity around tech, which then gets transmitted into these approaches of telling kids what to do about technology. And so I think sometimes tech talks with kids can backfire unintentionally and the reason why … I mean, I think kids are very often left feeling one of two ways and one is, “Oh my God, I am super anxious and freaked out about all the bad things that could happen to me if I use tech.” Or they’re super anxious and super freaked out that some grownup is going to take away their tech.

(24:26):

And so those strategies, if those are the outcomes, I’m either really, really scared or I’m really scared you’re going to take this thing away from me, you’re either going to freeze a kid or entrench a kid, but it doesn’t move them into the seat of agency. Neither of those things, but kids receiving talks that make them scared or afraid they’re going to lose something usually makes them very passive in the next step, right? Or reactive.

Catherine Price (24:56):

Or very active resisting anything that might reduce their access to technology.

Dr. Sarah Bren (25:01):

Yeah.

Catherine Price (25:02):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (25:03):

And or go underground with it. It doesn’t bring them to the table. And so what I think the amazing generation does so well is one, like you said, it’s very straightforward and it’s very honest. It’s not harm, it’s not like fearmongery, but it also flips the conversation and it says like, “I’m not going to talk to you about … ” Yes, there are problems that come from using tech, but the focus on the book is really, what do you want? Yeah. What is your use of tech taking away from you and how do you feel about that and what matters to you and how do you want your life to feel like what’s good and how do you feel about other entities coming in and trying to control your attention and take things away from you? And it’s such an empowering position to place the reader in and it speaks to this developmental task of kids these age, which is agency, individuation, control, independence, autonomy, being effective and causing change.

(26:09):

That’s what kids want. They don’t want someone to tell them what to do or what bad things will happen if they don’t do what they’re supposed to do. They want to be invited to have a stake in the game. And that’s what I think you hit with this book that like, and it’s not surprising to me at all that you are hearing from kids saying like, “I want to like take up the fight. I want to be a rebel. I identify with the characters and also the goals of this, of the character’s agenda.”

Catherine Price (26:49):

Yeah. Well, I love that you’re saying that because I, so as I was saying, part of that rebel’s code, it’s use tech as a tool, don’t let tech use you, but the second part is fill your life with real friendship, real freedom, and real fun. And what you’re saying about what kids want and need at this age and early adolescence and in 13 years, that’s what those three things touch on because it’s totally developmentally appropriate, as you’re saying, for a kid as they get into their tween years or their adolescence, to want more freedom from their parents and to discover their own identity and try new things. And they want to spend more time with their friends and develop more friendships and they want more fun and that’s great. That’s all developmentally appropriate. And I think as adults and parents, we should want to support those goals.

Dr. Sarah Bren (27:34):

The pursuit of that is actually aligned with the best positive outcomes. Yes. They need that to survive.

Catherine Price (27:41):

So it builds confidence. It reduces anxiety. It makes them less likely to suffer mental health problems. It reduces parental anxiety to know that your kid is competent and capable of doing more things. But what I think that, I don’t know, at least when I was writing the book and when I think about it, I think it’s interesting to think that as parents, we should keep in mind that those things are very good for our kids and developmentally appropriate and that it’s really good for us as parents to try to give our kids more opportunities to spend more time with their friends, have more freedom and autonomy from us, discover their interests, discover who they are, and have more fun. As you know, I wrote a whole book about fun. Fun is actually really important for us both mentally and physically. What has happened though is that you have these tech companies who have come in and they’ve said, “Hey, our products will help you stay connected to your friends.

(28:27):

Use social media, use Snapchat, it will help you express your creativity like Instagram.” I mean, I’ve read all the mission statements of these companies and if the companies actually did what they said they were doing, then it would be great because they really do tap into the idea of it’s going to connect you to your friends, you’re going to have the freedom to discover your own interests and meet new people and it’s privacy from your parents and then you’re going to have more fun. They market their products as fun. But if you really think about it, an online relationship or let alone a follower, that’s not the same as a real life friendship. As we’re talking about interacting with people virtually is very different from interacting in person. And I did all this research about fun. This is what I would call fake fun. Scrolling on Instagram or TikTok might be entertaining or it might be traumatizing because of some of the content kids are saying, but like best case scenario, it’s entertaining and harmless, but that’s not fun in the deep visceral sense that fills us up, that is where the best memories in life come from.

(29:24):

So I guess what I’m saying is that I think that as parents, we can say, and we can have conversations with our kids about, “I get why you want to use these products,” because they’ve been promised to all of us as giving friendship and freedom and fun. And those are things that everybody wants, and especially at your age, it makes sense you want more of it, but that’s not actually what these products do. So let’s work together to figure out ways for you to have more real friendship and real freedom and more fun in real life with real people. So I think that kind of shifts the conversation between parents and kids also. And honestly, kids can help us do that. It’s not like adults are … I figured this out. I mean, I wrote how to break up with your phone. It’s still struggle to prioritize real life interactions and have time for your hobbies and interests or if you still have any.

(30:08):

So I think it’s something where we all actually are on the same side and we really have found that the book seems to be shifting, like turning what is often a confrontation into a more productive conversation. And I’ve literally heard that from some people about, I remember one of my friends actually said, for the first time I feel like we’re all on the same side. And I think that that’s possible. And it is, again, going back to the idea that this is just the truth. It’s like it is all of us, kids and adults, all trying to figure out how not to allow our lives to be hijacked by companies that are trying to steal our lives from us literally from under our noses in case of a smartphone. So anyway, that’s what makes me really happy and gives me like goosebumps and causes me to cry if I read reader reviews.

(30:50):

I can’t read reader reviews in public I’ve discovered because I’m like crying in coffee shops, but in a good way, good cry.

Dr. Sarah Bren (30:56):

That is amazing.

(30:56):

I want to take a quick pause here to share a resource, especially if this conversation is bringing up questions or challenges for you. A lot of parents understand the bigger picture when it comes to screens. You know it’s not just about limiting time, but about helping your child build a healthier, more balanced relationship with technology. But in the day-to-day, that can be hard to navigate. Maybe conversations turn into power struggles. Maybe your child pushes back or shuts down, or maybe you’re just not sure what approach will actually work for your child and your family. If that’s where you are, you don’t have to figure it out on your own. At Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer virtual and in- person parent coaching to help you think through these challenges in a way that is personalized, practical, and grounded in evidence-based care. Together, we can look at what’s driving your child’s behavior, how to approach these conversations in a way that builds more connection and buy-in, and what strategies you can start using right away.

(32:00):

With a flexible, customized approach, you can get support that fits your needs. If you are navigating a specific challenge, even just a few sessions can make a meaningful difference. And if you’re looking for more ongoing support, we’re here to walk with you every step of the way. To learn more about these resources for parents, along with our services for individuals, children, couples, co-parents, and families, you can schedule a free 30 minute consultation call and talk to a member of our highly trained care team, or visit our website at upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. You don’t need to know what you need, just that you want support, and we will guide you from there. All right, let’s get back to the conversation with Catherine Price.

(32:51):

I want to hear some of the things that you’re hearing from kids, because I think talk about being honest. If you’re honest with kids, that’s hard as grownups to be honest with kids. It is really, really, really easy for kids to be honest with us. They are always shockingly informative when you … I could see a parent very reasonably hear, “Oh, okay. Well, if you tell the kid that you get freedom and independence and fun on your phone right now, but that’s just the marketing getting you. ” It’s not real. And if they have freedom and independence and fun off your phone, they’re going to roll their eyes at me and say, “Ugh, you don’t know anything about freedom and independence and fun. I get it on my phone.” But the reality is, if you ask and you are asking kids and they are telling you, where do you really get freedom and independence and fun?

(33:42):

And if you think about, you can’t have these conversations in a defensive moment where you are taking away their phone, that’s not when these conversations need to happen. We should also talk a little bit about when and where and how to have these productive conversations, because timing and connection and sort of tone, environment is important. But if you’re having these conversations in a time when it’s productive, your kids are probably going to be shockingly reflective and share with you all kinds of really useful insights that show you that they absolutely do not like what they’re getting from their phone when they actually sit and think about it. Kids tell me very regularly in therapy, kids that don’t want to give up their phone, they really resist anything that relates to giving it up. But when I ask them, do they like it, they say no.

Catherine Price (34:39):

Yeah. We talk about that in the book. I mean, there was a survey done of people 18 to 27 years old and they were asked about their opinions on a number of things, but one of the questions was, I forgot the exact phrasing. It basically was like, “Are there any of these platforms that you wish never existed?” And it was like, they asked about TikTok and Snapchat and Instagram and X and all that stuff. And it was really interesting because nearly half of the respondents of 18 to 27 year olds in this poll said that they wish that X TikTok and Snapchat … Sorry. Yeah, Snapchat had never been existed. Now X is its own thing. I don’t think many people wish it hadn’t been invented at this point, but like Snapchat and TikTok are two of the things that teenagers spend the most time on. And here you have these people who are spending, I mean the average American teenager spending upwards of five hours a day just scrolling on social media and YouTube, which is two and a half full months a year.

(35:29):

It’s a whole summer break. Like to have that amount of time that you’re spending on something that you wish didn’t exist. I always say, we say in the book, if you didn’t like bicycling, if you hated bicycling, you just wouldn’t bicycle. You wouldn’t wish that bikes had never been invented, let alone spend five hours a day riding a bicycle. And going to what you’re saying, it’s because there’s this feeling of being trapped among young people.

(35:50):

But what you’re saying I think is very important. How do you bring up these conversations in a way that doesn’t cause your kids to shut down? And I think that being vulnerable is a good way. As an adult, you could ask your kids to, you could use this conversation as an impetus, say that you listened to this podcast, it got you thinking, you’re curious actually about how do your phone habits affect your kids? How do your kids feel about how you interact with screens? I ask this to kids all the time when I give talks at schools and I’ve given talks to kids from third grade on up and I always kind of break the ice by saying like, “Raise your hand if you’ve ever felt hurt or ignored by something that your parent was doing on the phone.” And all their hands go up and they tell these heartbreaking stories about how they have been trying to connect with their parents, trying to show them something that means a lot to them and they feel that they can’t get their parents’ attention because they’re on the phone.

(36:38):

And the way that they describe it is so, I mean, I’m sure you hear this all the time in your sessions, but it’s so insightful. I mean, a little boy in like fourth grade literally saying, “I’m trying to show my dad something because I want to connect with him.” And he says, “Yes, yes, I saw it. ” And I know he didn’t because he was on his phone. Stuff that’s like a dagger through the heart as a parent. So I think having your kid reflect on your habits and then having a conversation about how your kid could help you with your habits is a great thing. And I’d also say that just one thing we really try to do in the amazing generation is to offer a lot of experiments that kids can do to kind of observe the world around them, almost treat it like a science observation to say, “Okay, let’s talk about fun.” Like you’re saying that, or everybody seems to think that TikTok is fun, right? But it’s like, let’s actually do a thing where ask people maybe as a dinnertime conversation, what’s one of your most fun memories?

(37:24):

And I did this for my research for the power of fun. I collected thousands of stories from people around the world. None of the stories were like, it was that time I spent veggie out on my couch scrolling through Instagram. The stories happen in real life. And if technology was involved, it was almost to support the interaction, like playing video games with a friend, using the phone to talk to someone. So I think that can be interesting. And you also could say, okay, let’s just like look around the world when we’re together as a family and notice people on their phones and are they doing anything A, that’s subjectively dangerous, like walking across the street while texting or driving their kids to school while on the phone?

(38:06):

But B, do they look like they’re having fun? Like do the people you see staring down at their phones at bus stops and stuff, do they look like the people on the ads that we see on TV who seem to just find the Samsung Galaxy or whatever would be like the biggest invention for fun. Because I think it’s really interesting where you’re like, it’s almost like the emperor’s new clothes where you suddenly are like, wait a second, you see the world totally differently. I often warn people when they read how to break up with your phone that you may end up … If you start to see what’s actually happening, you can’t unsee it. And I always joke it’s like seeing a family member naked or something where you’re like, “Oh, I wish I didn’t see that. ” But it’s like you can’t unsee it because it’s like, once you notice it’s like, oh my goodness, everybody’s on their phone all the time. And if you swap in, if you do a thought experiment and think, what if all those people were smoking cigarettes or drinking out of flasks or injecting drugs or something, would that seem normal? Just because everyone’s doing it doesn’t mean it’s normal and okay. And then even more importantly, and something I think resonates with kids is like, does it look fun? Is like what we’re all doing look fun.

Dr. Sarah Bren (39:06):

Right.

Catherine Price (39:07):

Do your parents back to back Zoom calls, do they? I mean, I’m enjoying it, but does that look fun? No, you guys actually have this precious period of life in your childhood and early adolescence where you can go do more stuff and have fun and hang out with your friends in ways that to be totally honest are going to be harder as you get older, like enjoy it. It’s such a precious time.

Dr. Sarah Bren (39:28):

But this makes me, all these things you’re describing, make me go back to what you were saying originally of the goal of the book was like to get kids buy-in, right? And I’m sure parents listening now are like, that’s the question they’re like, you’re preaching to the choir, but how do I get the buy-in? And I think we’re talking, what you’re describing here is like the psychology of buy-in, right? If you want someone to buy into an idea to shift a perspective, one great way to fail at that is to tell them to shift their perspective, is to make it feel about my will versus your will. You want this, I want you to want this instead. Want it.

Catherine Price (40:11):

Right, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (40:11):

Why aren’t you wanting it? It doesn’t work very well. What works better, and obviously the tech companies know this because they have billions of dollars in marketing and this is the science of selling too, right? The science of selling is the science of perspective shifting of buy-in, but it’s show, don’t tell. It’s invite someone to look at something from a different view and then in that new perspective that feels from their own agency, right? From their look, they look and in that viewpoint, they come to their own ideas, they make their own connections, they connect the dots themselves. And when that happens, when I connect the dots myself, I can’t unsee it.

Catherine Price (41:01):

Yes, yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (41:02):

It’s my awareness. It’s my elevated level of consciousness. I have moved up in a higher degree of conscious awareness and once you have elevated into that higher level of conscious awareness, you’re there.

Catherine Price (41:18):

Right. You can’t unlearn it. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (41:19):

Yeah. You are aware now. This is evolution, this is development, right? All of human development as a species, but just like as a human, like as we develop throughout our lifespan, we go through a series of new realizations of increasing our level of conscious awareness. And so as the parent who’s trying to increase your child’s level of conscious awareness without them shutting you down, like you have to create an environment in which they can open their eyes and see, not where we tell them to do. It’s the seeing that leads to the doing. We’re skipping that part sometimes.

Catherine Price (42:01):

Yes, I completely agree. And I think that that’s one of the reasons that the amazing generation has been effective. And it’s also one of the reasons … It’s always funny to be like, “What suggestions do you have? ” And I’m like, give people my book, which sounds really weird, but literally that was the goal of the book. And what we’ve been finding is that we’ve been hearing from a ton of families where they’ve just left the book out and then their kids have picked it up and started reading it on their own, which is really cool, obviously. But also what I always suggest is that the whole goal, The Amazing Generation is exactly what you’re talking about. We’ve got a whole thing in the beginning that’s secrets of the tech wizards that actually explains these five secrets that tech companies don’t want kids to know about how their products make money.

(42:38):

How do social media apps make money? They’re technically free to download. Many kids have not really thought about that or what tricks do they use. I’m like, “Oh my goodness, they’re copying tricks from casinos and what’s the opportunity cost?” We don’t use the word opportunity cost, but how much time are you giving up to these companies when you start using their platforms? What are you not doing with that time? This stuff really has been resonating with kids. So another suggestion I always give parents is give your kids this book and then say, “Can you read this and teach me something because I listen to this conversation, whatever I’m curious and just teach me something because I feel like there’s a lot I don’t know. That’s a really good way to get into it. ” I’d also offer that I just created, I have a free resource kit on my website, which is catherineprice.com.

(43:24):

It’s a PDF that you can print out that has my suggested roadmap for how to introduce your kids to smartphones. And I guess I don’t recommend introducing them to social media, but like a tech roadmap and it has a lot of practical suggestions, but I made a whole seven day plan that’s like, it’s a downloadable workbook that actually is designed to help open up conversations just like you’re talking about as Family Guide to Screen Life Balance, which is like, it has conversation prompts for the dinner table that you can talk and has like worksheets for doing a tech audit. So even if you’re listening right now, one thing you could do is involve your kids in saying, “Okay, let’s look at what technology and screens we’re using, not just the kid, but in the whole house, like smart systems, TV, whatever it might be, like where the TVs are and how are we using these and how do we feel about them? Is there anything we want to change?” So I think there’s a lot of ways to make this a family discussion that, again, is not a confrontation. It actually is a productive conversation, but it comes from expressing a bit of vulnerability to say that your own habits might not be ideal.

(44:24):

And respecting your kid as someone who has insights and who has a perspective that’s worth listening to. And I will say from my experience, I mean, don’t underestimate your kid, like kids who are like five years old can blow you away with the things you say. So anyway, but I think I completely agree with you. That’s how you actually change behavior. You have to want to change behavior. And the last thing I will say on that note is also the idea of something that I’ve noticed in my own life from adults that I’ve worked with is that if you fill your life with more real fun, screen time’s going to go down on its own. So just really having that perspective in mind as a parent that to reduce fights about screen time, make sure you’re paying enough attention to making sure your kid has adequate real life experiences.

(45:09):

Because like let’s be honest, if you’re not allowed to go out of the house and you have no opportunities to hang out in person with your friends without an adult either present or telling you what to do like in organized sports, like of course you’re going to want to be alone in your room on your phone because you’re locked in the house anyway, and it’s the only way you can interact with your friends. And that’s kind of on us as adults and parents to change, to give them more independence and freedom and just ways to, again, do the things that are developmentally appropriate. But like it makes sense that they’re going to turn towards technology because the products are designed to suck them in and they’re meeting a need or they seemingly are meeting a need that is true for kids. So anyway.

Dr. Sarah Bren (45:45):

They are. They are meeting a need. And so if we don’t want the phone to be the thing that serves that need being met, we have to provide other opportunities for those needs to be met in other spaces. And it is hard, but it’s fortunately, like to our earlier part of the conversation, like there is resources that are like getting pretty creative. I think that there’s a lot of, just as much as big tech filled the industry niche, there’s like reactive industry is popping up to solve problems that tech is creating or solving, but solving in one big, bad way versus how do we take pieces like, I want to build, I want my kid to have connection, independence and fun and access to that without me making it happen that’s not on the phone or not the smartphone, not the internet, not social media. So like, there’s lots of resources, but my big takeaway from this conversation is at least in my home, like where can I build that in?

(46:51):

And I think I need to give my kids an opportunity to have access to speaking with their friends because there’s great value in that. It just, it doesn’t have to be on this one tool that does everything. I can break it up into little tools that do just one thing.

Catherine Price (47:08):

Yes, you can. And as you’re saying, there are all of these new companies. I mean, eventually I hope that Apple and Google will do this for their own phones, but there’s smartphone alternatives. That’s another thing I think parents don’t realize is you don’t, it’s not no phone or an iPhone. There’s a lot of smartphone alternatives. They’re known as basic phones, smartphone alternatives, dumb phones. I don’t like that term because they’re quite smart. But you know, when your kid is doing stuff out of their house on their own and you actually want to give them more autonomy, if you feel that it’s important for them to have a phone or a way to communicate with you in those moments, don’t go straight to iPhone, just get them a smartphone alternative and get other parents in your network to do the same. I guess what I keep coming back to is it can feel like a very daunting problem.

(47:48):

It is with very serious repercussions, but unlike many of the things that are happening in the world right now or challenges that we’re all facing, this is something we do have agency over and we do have some degree of control over and there’s positive things we can do starting even today that can help our kids. And it becomes so much easier when we work together, but everyone’s waking up to it now. So that’s where I have my most optimistic moments is where, no, this is something we can change.

Dr. Sarah Bren (48:17):

We moved into this higher level of conscious awareness around the problem and which opens us to the solutions as well collectively. And so it’s a really empowering time, I think.

Catherine Price (48:27):

Yeah, I agree.

Dr. Sarah Bren (48:29):

Thank you so much for being here. Everyone, get the amazing generation, you won’t regret it. Even if your kids are really little, I think even finding ways to just, even you reading it as a parent, I think will give you ideas if your kids are still a little young for this. But like honestly, I think as soon as your kids can read, they should be reading this. And we’ll post a link to your website and your resources as well in the show notes. So check that out and thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Catherine Price (48:59):

Oh, thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (49:07):

If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you. Share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on and let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me and just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how this show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.