410. Creating a calmer home: Using design and organization to support your child’s nervous system with Rachel Melvald

Dr. Rachel Melvald (00:00):

Because all the sciences I say, it’s neuroscience, ergonomics, color, psychology, biophilia, lighting, all that we know that affects our system we want to support.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:19):

Our homes are more than just the backdrop of our lives. Our environments actually shape how we feel, behave, and regulate every single day. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist, mom of two, and the host of Securely Attached. Each week I sit down with leading experts in psychology, neuroscience, medicine, and child development to translate complex research into practical, grounded insights that help you parent with more clarity and confidence. And today I’m joined by Rachel Melvald. Rachel is a licensed psychotherapist and the founder of Psychiture, a practice that sits at the intersection of trauma recovery, neuroscience, environmental psychology, and design. She’s also the author of the book, Neurodesign: The Art and Science of Harmonious Living. Through her work, Rachel helps people understand how the spaces we live in can either increase stress and overwhelm or become powerful tools for regulation, connection, and wellbeing. In this conversation, we explore how things like clutter, lighting, layout, and sensory input all impact our kids’ ability to focus, play, and regulate, and how small practical changes can make a big difference in how your home feels.

(01:31):

We talk about why fewer toys can actually lead to more creative and engaged play, how predictable spaces help kids feel safer and why something as simple as changing your lighting might be one of the easiest ways to support your child’s nervous system. This episode offers a different lens on parenting, helping you think more intentionally about how the spaces you spend the most time in are impacting the emotions and behaviors of everyone in your family and the small shifts you can make to your environment that can have a really big impact.

(02:07):

Hi, Rachel. Thanks so much for coming on Securely Attached. I’m so excited for our conversation today.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (02:14):

Me too. Finally.

Dr. Sarah Bren (02:16):

Yes. Okay. So maybe to start us off, why don’t you introduce yourself a little bit and maybe explain what neurodesign is?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (02:27):

Yeah, I know it’s kind of a heavy word. Okay. So my name’s Dr. Rachel Melvald. I developed a … I would say it’s like an art and a science neurodesign. My book is called Neurodesign: The Art and Science of Harmonious Living. My business is called Psychitecture. And basically my business psychoecture was working with couples and families in remodels and trying to understand how space regulates us. When I was working with trauma, more in particular, how the sensory environment really affects our mental health. So neurodesign came up with the advent of further studying how neuroscience and Western psychology in terms of the built environment, how that affects our mental health. So neurodesign is a word that really is born from let’s say environmental psychology, all the sciences that we know in social sciences that actually connect with space. To further that, we use the word now neuroesthetics. So that’s kind of more the buzzword right now is working with neuroaesthetics

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:54):

And what’s the difference kind of between … Am I understanding neurodesign is more being used in architecture structure and thinking about the whole, whereas neuro aesthetics is like a micro, all these little moments in our life and being intentional about how they relate to our nervous system.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (04:15):

Right, right. Because neuroesthetics, you’ll look at how do objects, beauty, anything in our design environment, how does that affect our brains?

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:25):

Got it. Okay. And so what are you finding? I mean, obviously environments influence our systems, right? Our nervous system, our brain, our body, our relation to space and like that space between us and where we meet the outside world. But what does the science say about how these surroundings, this environment shape our mood, our stress levels, even like our relationships?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (04:54):

Well, the science I would say speaks to how we were more in the primitive sense. So like looking at our brains like in the, let’s say the amygdala, going back into fight or flight, dissociation, states of how our primitive states operate as how we can be affected by our environment. So it’s looking at our nervous system, it’s looking at biofeedback, it’s looking at how our brains work in terms of cognitive overload. So basically we’re looking at, yes, if you’re looking at a bright overhead light, is that soothing to your body or is that overwhelming? And you could say science is anything from how our body gauges it and we get sensory cues to how our heart rate works, how pulse, our temperature. So the brain is a very undiscovered … It’s so still a mystery to I think even scientists. But what I think is really more tried and true is like Vessel Bandicore who wrote The Body Keeps Score, is that our bodies register the truth. And so I think looking at how we integrate into our nervous system is a good gauge of that, not just like our brains per se.

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:24):

Right. Well, because I mean, obviously the brain is involved in like the conscious mind versus like the more unconscious automatic sensory processing parts of our brain and our nervous system, right? So what I’m hearing is like if I’m sitting in a room like, okay, I have a pretty cluttered office space. You can’t tell from the back. You can’t. Well, that’s the magic of Zoom and the video screen, like this background looks great, but everything outside of the camera’s lens. It’s the beauty of production, if you will.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (07:01):

Absolutely.

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:03):

But that’s a really good example, right? So maybe the difference between this background that you can see behind me that is this kind of calm, well organized space and the direction that like I’m looking at, so you see is calm and organized. What I’m looking at is like 50,000 post-its of all shapes and sizes and colors and books and papers. I’m constantly getting inundated by like sensory input that is high sensory input, not particularly organized. Is that going to impact my nervous system in a different way than the background you see from your angle looking behind me where it’s organized?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (07:43):

Yeah, I think so because in terms of perception, like you said, the chaos that you would see, like we kind of want to look at, let’s say patterns in nature, organize, like there’s a coherence to nature, right? Our brains want to be coherent. So when you’re looking at like clutter, you’re starting to overly scan, you’re starting to not be able to focus, you’re already like in an overload. Whereas let’s say you’re looking at a horizon line of a sunset, you’re clear, you can see, you can scan, that’s just general orienting, right? So we’re not having to work as hard at it with a clean space.

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:32):

So the brain actually gets like a break. Like i’s not as much cognitive load.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (08:37):

Exactly. Not as much cognitive load. So a lot of what we speak to in the book neurodesign and in terms of neuro aesthetics is that decluttering is a big thing.

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:51):

Yes. And I’m sure everyone who’s listening is like on my to- do list, but probably also not urgent, not pressing, maybe always on my mind. I think that’s the thing is there’s a lot of like noise that comes from cluttered environments and it can, I think we can all agree it’s this like buzzing noise in the back of our minds, this load on our system, but it’s also part of reality, especially when you’re parenting little kids, like we’ve got toys all over the place and lunchboxes piling up and it’s how do we manage … like when you’re working with … How do you find that balance between prioritizing what’s good for the system, like what’s ease on the system, like the nervous system and the sensory system and the interplay between the person and the environment and like the reality of parenthood and the chaos that comes from those environments.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (09:49):

Yeah, that’s interesting. But why so many toys is my first question. I’m not an expert at that, but like I don’t think the sheer amount of stuff that kids are in is maybe too many.

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:06):

It’s not helpful. You know what’s interesting and I’m curious if you’ve heard of these studies, but they’ve done a lot of studies on play and introducing a child to a play space that has many, many, many toys versus introducing a child into a play space that has like just a few toys and children who are introduced into the play space with fewer toys play longer, their play becomes more complex, there’s more focus and attention and like complexity to the play, which to me makes.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (10:34):

That’s what I was thinking and I’m glad you cited that because I remember hearing that. So yeah, I think that just speaks to, again, we’re able to be more curious, more creative, more … And so the child’s brain is exploring better without chaos and routine. I mean, kids really respond to routine and structure, right?

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:03):

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how that plays into neurodesign, like routine and structure and predictability?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (11:09):

Yeah, because our brains really do want to be predictable, right? Let’s say in a design and a space, to be predictable is to wayfind, we call it in neurodesign I highlight wayfinding. It’s really your ability to orient and have predictable cues because when it’s predictable, we’re safer too. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That speaks to routine and that probably speaks to how you organize your toys, you organize your toy box, you have cubbies, you have labels. That would be more predictable.

Dr. Sarah Bren (11:55):

Yeah. Okay. So I’m hearing a couple things, right? There’s this idea that when we put intentionality into the amount of sort of sensory inputs a space has, less can be more organizing, more calming. It can also allow, when we have a sort of a predictable way of organizing, like if there’s a flow to the space or things have a home and we can sort of reliably and predictably navigate our space, I’m thinking more for kids, right? Obviously this is for sure true for parents too, but like I’m trying to think of like when you are considering how to create a home that is conducive to different like developmental needs of a child and especially if you have a child who might be really sensitive to their sensory input or their environment, that creating like predictable flows for them.

(12:54):

“Oh, in the morning I wake up and my clothes are sitting on this stool because we picked them out the night before and I know to go to this stool and this is where I get my clothes on and then I move into the bathroom and I have a place on the counter where my toothbrush and my toothpaste are and it’s the first thing I see and it’s like a visual cue to orient them to like the task. And again, with little kids or kids who struggle with executive functioning skills or who struggle with flow and transitions, like visual cues, whether it’s just the toothbrush sitting on the counter or maybe a little piece of paper with some pick art printed on it where they can check it off or just even look at it, like reference it.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (13:35):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:38):

You’re trying to think of things to help orient like this leads to this, which leads to this, which leads to this and helps them flow and organize themselves.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (13:48):

Absolutely. That creates more coherence. Yeah. The brain wants to go into coherence. So I think that’s an excellent example and visual example as to how to support a child in orienting to tasks.

Dr. Sarah Bren (14:04):

Because I’m also, I’m always balancing the reality of like what’s optimal versus what’s realistic. Because, I really, as a mom who has ADHD and also just has two … My kids are six and eight right now and like I would love a playroom that has a few toys in it, but we’ve accumulated so many toys over the last eight years of birthday parties and Hanukkah and all of the influx of stuff. Where do you imagine is a good place to begin when you’re thinking about like, okay, I need this to be realistic for me. I want fewer things because I know it’s better for my nervous system, it’s better for my kid’s nervous system, it’s better for the neuro design of the home, not just aesthetics for the sake of aesthetics, but because there is an actual impact on the way that we feel.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (15:03):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (15:06):

Where would you begin? Where do you balance optimal and reality?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (15:12):

Well, I think it’s great to declutter. I think optimal versus reality. Reality is things accumulate and it’s just crazy how they do. I’m obsessively expunging. I’m a minimalist. So even as a minimalist, I’m like, why is my closet this bull with this? I mean, it just things accumulate. So I do think it is important to like create a monthly ritual to start expunging, whether it’s with your kid and I just even remember being a kid when my parent threw away things like, why don’t you both do it together, right? You can decide, recycle it, give it to somebody that could use it. So I mean, that’s kind of even bringing in like, I always say I’m the Marie Condo of the West. Marie Condo is like the east in her fence.

(16:14):

I do think just the general accumulation to create rituals to expunge is probably not, you’re going to have a perfect minimal place. I don’t think on expects that, but I think generally speaking, knowing how our brains do so much better when we are not in clutter, it would behoove you to establish some of these rituals, just in terms of that’s just clutter that helps us feel better in our spaces, right? And then there’s the aesthetic value of it, but it is. It’s scanning, it’s orienting, it’s intentionality. I think what it says, it’s like, oh, hey, just because you have accumulation, there’s a psychological and mental health effect of it. So maybe it just hones in on that. So I’d say just simply starting to get rid of stuff and organizing.

Dr. Sarah Bren (17:17):

Yeah. And I like your suggestion to make it a ritual because I think that feels more attainable and manageable and fits into this idea of like a rhythm and predictability, right? Both for us and for our kids. If there’s a particular, maybe it’s Sunday afternoons or maybe it’s once a month, but there’s this rhythm to, okay, I’m going to be intentional about grabbing like a big basket and I’m going to go through, I’m just going to roam around the house and find some things that don’t live in their home and I’m going to sift through it and discard what I can or put back what needs to get put back. But it doesn’t feel as all or noth as like, there’s everything and I have to get rid of all of it or I don’t think it’s realistic for everyone to go minimal, but I think there’s this idea of having a rhythm to resetting the space and inviting our kids to participate in that and maybe that’s just in their room and we do it with them or the playroom or the shared spaces, but I could see that being something that feels like doable even with the chaos of parenthood.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (18:34):

Yeah, because everything is routine and if you’re establishing exercise and food and grocery shopping and all the things to establish a day of decluttering and getting rid of stuff. Yeah, if it’s a day, if it’s a month thing I personally, if I look at something and it doesn’t, like I love the Marie Kondo if it doesn’t spark you or if it doesn’t, like I do it in the moment. So I don’t even … I think once you get things clear, why not by the end of the day, “Oh, Johnny didn’t play with this toy. He hasn’t played with it all week. He doesn’t, should we explore if this is …

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:15):

Yeah. I think for kids it can be …

Dr. Rachel Melvald (19:24):

It’s a harder timeline.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:25):

It’s hard for kids to let go of stuff because they attach to it in a different way, but I do think, and I do this all the time where I’m like, I will go through my kids’ playroom and I’ll be like, “First of all, I should do this more often because there’s stuff in there that should developmentally not of interest to them anymore.” They’ve aged out of it. They might still be attached to it. So I do think sometimes it depends on your kid. I think some kids have stronger attachments to their objects than others and I also think at a younger age it can be, well, I guess it really does depend on the kid because some kids just don’t notice at all if stuff’s just missing and some kids can be like, it feels like something has been removed from their being if they’re like, if you don’t know, it’s like that pencil. Well, I didn’t anticipate that being so intensely attached.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (20:17):

Oh yeah, it’s surprising.

Dr. Sarah Bren (20:20):

So helping kids know that it’s something that you’re going to do I think is helpful, but then you get a lot of like, “No, we need that. We need that. Of course I’ll play with that. ” So I will often go through my kids’ playroom and I do it in phases. So I will first pick up all the things that I think they won’t miss or are not at all of interest to them anymore and I’ll put them in a bag and then I will put that bag in my garage or like out of sight, out of mind and then I will wait to throw it away because inevitably 99% of the things in that bag will never be referenced again, but there will be that one thing that they’re like, “Where is this thing? Where? I’ve been looking everywhere. I need it back. I can’t find it.

(21:03):

” And you’re like, “Oh, okay, that one had a spot. That one is important.” And because I do think if you invite them to do the decluttering with you, they’re going to say, “I want to keep everything.”

Dr. Rachel Melvald (21:12):

I want to keep everything, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:14):

But if you remove it, put it out of sight, wait a week or two, sometimes a month or two, because often I just forget that the bag’s even there.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (21:22):

That’s a great idea.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:23):

And then they ask for the thing, you can at least retrieve it, but you’re still de-cluttering.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (21:29):

I love that because then you’re like safeguarding that one thing that is like, no, you might not, that might have been an oversight. So that is a great way to test it out by just moving and putting the garbage bag in the garage. I love that. Because that’s at least moving it along.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:52):

Exactly. I feel like it also helps create that space for them in the play space, otherwise they would literally be in an ecological geological layers and layers and layers and layers of stuff because it just keeps getting brought in and brought in and brought in no matter how much I attempt to gatekeep, things just appear.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (22:17):

Just give crap everywhere. And that’s the thing is it’s all- Why is there a bag for everything? I know. It’s so wasteful and it’s so not environmentally great either. So there’s a whole sustainability discussion we could get into as well. But like if I’m like getting rid of my clothing, I do the same thing. I do a big bag and by the time I get to Crossroads or Wasteland, which is our vintage shopping or where I go to sell it or take it to Jewish Council Thrift, it’s sitting in the bag for a while in the trunk. So sometimes you do say, “Oh, there was that one thing I might have done.” So I think that system is a great system as a parent that’s great.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:02):

Especially if you’re ambivalent about getting rid of stuff. Obviously our kids are full of ambivalence around getting rid of stuff because that kind of fits their develpmental stage.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (23:09):

If you’re ambivalent, get rid of it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:12):

Yeah. But I’m ambivalent about getting rid of stuff too, but there is a way in like this forces me to just get in the practice of it, which is…

Dr. Rachel Melvald (23:24):

I think ambivalence though, if you’re even speaking attachment style, right, the ambivalence means you’re just not in it. I’m sure people do the yes pile, the maybe pile, the definite no pile. You can do that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:47):

Yes. There’s ways to do it gradually.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (23:50):

Exactly.

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:56):

I want to take a quick pause here because as we’re talking about being more intentional with the spaces we create in our homes, I think it’s worth naming that being intentional in our parenting can create that same sense of calm containment and support for our kids. But just like with design, it’s not always obvious where to start. Maybe you’re trying to respond differently to your child’s behavior, but in the moment it’s hard to know what to say or do or maybe you have a general sense of how you want to parent, but you’re not sure how to apply that in your day-to-day life. If that’s where you are, you don’t have to figure it out on your own.

(24:30):

At my group practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, we offer therapy and parent coaching to help you be more intentional in your parenting, whether you’re navigating a specific challenge like anxiety, behavioral or emotional regulation difficulties, or supporting a neurodivergent child, or you’re just wanting to feel more confident and aligned in how you’re showing up.

(24:52):

We’ll help you understand what’s driving your child’s behaviors, develop strategies that actually fit your child and your family and give you tools you can start using right away. With both in- person services in Westchester, New York and virtual sessions worldwide, we make it convenient for you to receive support wherever you are. If you’d like to learn more, you can schedule a free 30-minute consultation by clicking the link in the episode description or visiting upshurbren.com. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. Okay. Now let’s get back to my conversation with Rachel Melvald.

(25:33):

And so we’ve been talking a little bit about decluttering and organization and its impact on our systems, but what about, I feel like there’s so much more to this an organization, right? There’s like this intentionality and design and like you talk about ways that you can … It’s not just about what you don’t have, it’s about what you’re actively adding in. Are there things like colors or design elements that can have an impact on our system differently?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (26:03):

Yeah, absolutely. Color, we talk a lot about color psychology. We talk about biophilia, how nature and plants heal us, we talk about lighting, we talk about temperature. So these are all design elements that I unpack in neurodesign because all of those elements do affect how we feel. And again, it hearkens back to nature. There’s such patterning and there’s such coherence in nature that if we can emulate that in our spaces, we feel better. So like curvature, our brains really like curvature more than 90 degree angles. So there’s been studies on that. There’s studies on, I mean, in terms of color psychology, there are certain colors that will be more calming and certain colors that could be more activating.

Dr. Sarah Bren (26:58):

Does it depend on the person or is it like, no, these are universally calming colors or more or less?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (27:06):

I’d say there’s a universal, but yes, I think there is association that does happen with all elements, right? So what is to unpack, okay, like red. Red in our primitive brain was blood, it’s fight or flight, it’s emergency, but it also is passionate. It’s also activating in our cortisol levels and sometimes we need a little bit of that. Have we associated red with love, right? So there are cultural associations that, yes, I think happen with color for sure, but I think there is an underlying universality, but you’re right, it can be individualized and everything needs to be individualized with all of this for sure.

Dr. Sarah Bren (28:00):

Are there certain colors that if you are, maybe you want to be changing some part of your home or adding some throw pillows to your living room, or maybe you’re really going to paint the wall or maybe you’re having a new baby and you’re designing a nursery. What are some tips and strategies for considering what the nervous system tends to prefer and what it finds to be calming and creating?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (28:27):

Yeah. I’d say more of the natural hues, like warm tops, sages, lighter kind of, I would say like ivory’s tan, sand colors, like anything you find a light blue, like our ocean, greens, it’s really kind of the, I’d say natural colors really are more calming for us. Got it. Colors found in nature.

Dr. Sarah Bren (28:59):

Got it. And do you recommend that people sort of think about a space and what kind of emotional experience they’re interested in having in that space? I’m thinking the diference between like a nursery and a playroom or the kitchen where we actually are kind of in, we have different modes that we want to be in in different places in our home.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (29:24):

Exactly. And that’s what I find is so fascinating about this work is the intentionality of what kind of agency of the room, what is the goal? How does the room want to perform or how do you want it? Do you want to be productive? Do you want to be creative? Do you want to connect? Do you want to have respite? So we look at prospect and refuge where there’s times we want to go out and connect. There’s times where we need to go more internal and restore so we can design our spaces in terms of If like you said, the function of the room is what is our intention? Do we want to sleep? Do we want to work? So that’s very important to distinguish that goal of the space.

Dr. Sarah Bren (30:15):

Okay. I want to have a place where I work and I want to have a place where my children feel creative energy and feel like that’s their work. Probably slightly different, maybe different energy or vibes. I feel like in my workspace, I already told you guys it’s a cluttered mess. So maybe I want it to be kind of more clean visually, but you tell me, you’re the expert. If you were working with someone to think this through, not necessarily that there’s one prescription for every room or every intention, but if I was trying to think this through, what would be the questions you’d want me to be asking myself to design my office space versus my kids’ playroom or the place where they play and create and get into their flow?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (31:15):

Yeah. Well, like you said, for your office, your mode of production, you’re a psychologist, you are a podcaster, you have to be in performance and you’re working, you’re researching, you’re therapizing all the things I imagine that I do too. And so yes, like if you’re in more chaos and you have, we would say we’d want you to declutter and where are you orienting your furniture, right? Natural light is really the best for us. So where you’re orienting your desk towards lighting, looking at trees that move outside is very regulating to our nervous system. So if you’re in a productive space, you still want to be in a space where you get natural lighting, your furniture, ergonomics is important. So because all the sciences I say, it’s neuroscience, ergonomics, color, psychology, biophilia, lighting, all that we know that affects our system. We want to support in your office.

(32:29):

So organizing your books, having your files. If you want to focus and you have clutter on your desk, that’s going to be cognitive overload. So I would say quite simply, hopefully you have a window, hopefully you have a plant, hopefully your furniture, your chair is comfortable, ergonomically supports you.

(32:56):

And so with the playroom, which is a different productivity, I love how you say kids being productive is play. That is their work. Different color could affect, let’s say if you wanted some cortisol pop where you wanted some activation, like my mom has like an orange wall. T me that’s like crazy, but she’s more moody. She gets seasonal effective disorder, like she has her light, her seasonal effective light, she has that orange pop. So I say with kids color can be more playful to be curious in color, but would you want your whole room to be like red walls? So I think it’s important I think for a playroom to introduce sensory color and shapes and all the things like texture. We want to get into texture. Some could be overstimulating, some could be soothing, right? So maybe a rug that’s soft, but maybe toys that have more abrasion to it.

(34:13):

Who knows? It just depends. I think that’s where like I work with occupational therapists, that’s where sensory integration in a playroom I think is even more called for than an adult office. Although you need sensory integration too, but I think kids are much more wired for that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (34:34):

Oh, that’s interesting because I’m just thinking right now I have this footrest under my desk that has these like wooden roller thingies on it and I think that I don’t think I fully really linked this together although now I’m like, duh. I use it to regulate my sensory input. When I’m overstimulated, I’ll like use it to just kind of like subconsciously kind of titrate and regulate.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (35:01):

That’s great. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (35:04):

But there is that, that it would be like a sensory element to my office that’s … I also think actually I have it down here because sometimes my kids will play in here and also this has become kind of a hub for the discarded stuff that I’ve pulled out of my kids’ playroom. But I have like a pickler triangle, like you know those like if you can’t picture it, it’s like a little two small wooden ladders that join at the top to make a little triangle and it’s like a climbing piece for when my kids were really little, but now they use it to make a fort and whatever. It’s like pretty versatile toy. But putting that kind of thing into a playroom, having an element of sort of sensory input and physical movement, like something to climb on, something to create…

Dr. Rachel Melvald (35:57):

Movements.

Dr. Sarah Bren (35:57):

Yes, exactly. Not just the visual input, but the physical gross motor input as well can be really organizing.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (36:07):

Yes. Yeah. It can be very organizing. That’s a great point because I think with kids play and like you say, a gym, I think that is fascinating to get more into understanding the gross motor or fine motor and how a child needs to get their ya-yas out and to move and to … When you’re getting that out physically, the kids can focus more. It’s so important to get their energy out. And like you said, like with your footrest to regulate because like in trauma therapy, because I do somatic experiencing trauma recovery, and when you’re doing that kind of trauma work, you’re either, like you’re saying, titrating the system, regulating it, or you’re really discharging energy, right? Sometimes you’re wanting to just get it out. So it’s so important for kids, I think it’s true to go into a room and how can these objects and toys and play and structures do that? Like you’re saying that, what was it? The triangle you were saying.

Dr. Sarah Bren (37:22):

Yeah, the Pikler Triangle.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (37:23):

The Pikler Triangle. Okay.

Dr. Sarah Bren (37:25):

I’ll put a link in the show notes to the one that I like, but it’s just so you can see what we’re talking about. But it is quite frankly, I mean, my kids have been using it. My oldest is eight and a half and we’ve had it for about eight and a half years and it’s still being used.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (37:42):

I would like to explore those.

Dr. Sarah Bren (37:44):

It’s so versatile. Oh my God. It’s one of the best things because right now they use it for building forts. They put a blanket over it and crawl underneath and like read and stuff, but I mean it’s not huge, but they were using it for climbing when they were one, pulling up on it and then eventually climbing over it. And it’s got incredible versatility. It’s like a pretty well known toy in the sort of like probably occupational therapy world or the just gross motor freedom of movement and like creating play spaces that are both safe and like versatile and invite a lot of independent gross motor exploration of their bodies and space. So I’m a fan of that.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (38:40):

That’s great. I love that. I’m going to explore that more. Thank you. This is very helpful. I mean, what do you think of like a trampoline? What do you think about like trampolines or those?

Dr. Sarah Bren (38:53):

Well, they’re probably not that aesthetically beautiful. The backyard ones I know are linked to like the single most like incidents of ER visits ever. So I would say, I’m not highly recommended. I don’t tend to recommend the backyard trampolines, not that I am in a position to recommend or not recommend backyard equipment, but I will say the little trampolines, like the ones that have the bar that a kid can hold and that they can sort of like bounce up and down on while holding the bar, I think those are fantastic for sensory input and for like proprioceptive input.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (39:37):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (39:37):

Which is really regulating for the nervous system, especially if you have a kid who needs to move their body to organize their system. If they have a lot of energy, I think the trampolines can be … Again, I’m talking about those little … Do you know what I’m talking about? They’re like little trampolines. They’re like mostly for indoor youth. They have a bar that the kid can hold onto and just kind of jump up and down while holding the bar. So I think they’re a lot safer, but there’s so much like intense proprioceptive input, which is basically the proprio receptive input is when you … If you push your hands together, like isometric exercises, that pressure you feel in your joints, that’s proprioceptive input.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (40:22):

Right. That’s proprioceptic.

Dr. Sarah Bren (40:24):

And same with trampoline jumping, like that input you get from your feet and all of your joints compressing when you land and jump that- It’s vestibular. … really regulating. And the vestibular- Yes. The up and down is like vestibular input too. So I would say those types of trampolines, when you can account for the safety issue, because I know that they’re dangerous, because I’ve had pediatricians on be like, that’s like the number one reason for ER visits is like trampoline injuries in kids.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (41:01):

Okay.

Dr. Sarah Bren (41:02):

Yeah. But the little ones, different situations.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (41:07):

Also, it speaks to like back to your office, some people want a standing desk, some people if you have more hyperactivity to stand at your desk, move some people would prefer that. So that’s a way to support somebody.

Dr. Sarah Bren (41:26):

And I think if you have teens, like having a desk that can be converted to a standing desk or having like a wobble board or having like a balance board or something that they can use when they’re working. If your kid is old enough that they’re having a dedicated like academic space, thinking about that piece, about how they, if they have a hard time sitting still at a desk, how can you create opportunities at home at least to like modify that so that it’s more physically engaging because obviously there’s the aesthetic, which I think is … I think people maybe don’t quite always understand how it’s not just because it’s pretty. It has a very, to the work you do, it is very functional. It has an impact.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (42:23):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (42:24):

But not just the aesthetic, but the functionality I think of the environmental space, the design of the space on the way the system moves and regulates, I’m hearing is like not … So it’s not just about how it looks, which is important. It’s not just like vanity. It’s an interaction.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (42:45):

Yes. It’s an interaction with our environment and it affects how we feel. It’s not just design. It’s not just decoration. It’s literally how our bodies respond to it and our nervous systems respond to it.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:00):

And so taking that layer of not just what our sense is taken visually or physically tactile or auditorially or whatever, like even like sense, like the smells of the environment, olfactory.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (43:14):

Yeah, olfactory for memory.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:20):

Yeah. So all of that sort of sensory input is important to consider in your environment, but also the form and function of the way your body interacts with the space and uses the space to regulate, organize, stay engaged, manage that need to move as a push and pull of my attention. So if I need to stay and focus in a space, I might need to integrate ways to move while I’m focusing.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (43:52):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:54):

All of that would be neuro design.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (43:56):

Yes. Well said.

Dr. Sarah Bren (44:00):

Okay. All right. Well, if someone’s listening and they wanted to make one change this week to make their home feel either calmer or more engaging or just more supportive of their system’s needs or their kids’ systems.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (44:15):

It’s also social, right? We look at, like I said, prospect and refuge, connection and privacy, privacy connection. So boundaries, all of that. So it is, it’s sensory, it’s form and function, it’s how we navigate, it’s how we sense, it’s how we engage, it’s how we connect and restore. So I would bring in the social element and that’s why I’ve got harmonious living because there is the social and the individual self that is growing up developmentally in this space, designing developmentally and how to support the need for connection and not.

Dr. Sarah Bren (45:05):

That’s really interesting.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (45:06):

And having privacy. So to your question, the one thing I say this again and again, that lighting is really the easiest thing to really … It’s decluttering is one, but I think lighting is an important design element that really can help us calm, restore, and it’s so easy that you say, oh, typically overhead lighting is pretty overloading our system. So we talk about layering lighting, using lower lamps, using LED bulbs, using a dimmer, that’s a great way to kind of just say, oh my God, when we walk in a room, is it like overhead lighting bright or should we layer and do more ambient? And always connecting with natural lighting, making sure in the morning you get your natural lighting, it like sets up your cortisol for the day.

Dr. Sarah Bren (46:12):

So even things like behaviors in our interacting with our environment, like when I wake up, if I open my curtains so that I let that natural light in.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (46:20):

Yes. Right away, open your curtains.

Dr. Sarah Bren (46:25):

And then maybe use gradually introducing artificial light at stages in the morning. So it’s like, don’t turn the main light on, put a lamp on first so that you’re doing like a gradual introduction to light as you wake up throughout the day.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (46:41):

Yeah, exactly. And then as you wind down, ramp it up. Phones in your bed- Turn it off. Light is cortisol. So looking at, yes, the sensory input of lighting I think is important too because it’s like you know, the reason I even started this because I would say, well, why is a place a good vibe? Like what is a vibe? You go into certain places and you say, “God, it’s a good vibe.” There’s something about their home when they’re entertaining or when you’re looking at real estate. And I think there’s reasons, there’s cues that we’re in that feel good to our system.

Dr. Sarah Bren (47:27):

Yeah. No, that makes sense. And a lot of it, like we were saying at the very beginning, it’s subliminal. It’s not always in our conscious awareness. It’s like we’re not always thinking about this stuff, but it is entering into the system and it’s impacting us.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (47:44):

And it’s impacting us and I’m saying, well, there’s a reason. So if we know the reason, we know kind of the science and we know how the body responds and we look at all the social sciences, the neuroscience, I mean, even like I throw in anthropology, sociology, like where does this grounding, the element of grounding, how do you connect in a space and ground ourselves, right? So if we’re not grounded, we can’t orient, we can’t explore. So what grounds us are lineage, we’re artisan things in our home, like things that connect because when you’re in like all disposable, that doesn’t feel very connected, that doesn’t feel very real. So I also say that you’re bringing in all the kind of ways we know that people thrive in our social sciences and anthropology. So we’re bringing all of that into why do we feel good in a space? Why does it feel healthy?

Dr. Sarah Bren (48:51):

Yeah. Well, that sounds like this would be a really helpful book. You know, we talk a lot about parenting on this podcast and we don’t really … This is the first time we’ve really talked about this idea of like, well, creating this intentional space, it’s this sort of secondary piece. It’s not always the most obvious. And again, I don’t think I’m not getting a sense that like one must have like a minimalist zen, quiet, calm, neutral space to feel like you are having a say in the intentionality of your environment. It’s still this like dynamic individualized family, unique to the family’s needs system and way of thinking about it. But I think for me, it’s like the intentionality around it. It’s like thinking, okay, what would I like this space to facilitate inside of me?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (49:50):

And how does it mirror you and express you? It’s really, yeah. So intention, designing with intention. And you have control over it. It’s something we can control, which I like. That’s why I always got into it. I was like, okay, well, we can control our spaces. That’s something we can control.

Dr. Sarah Bren (50:14):

Yes. That is in a time where everything can feel very outside of our control, being able to say like, “Well, I’m going to figure out the lighting in my kitchen.”

Dr. Rachel Melvald (50:24):

I’m going to go get a dimmer for lighting.

Dr. Sarah Bren (50:27):

That is one thing in my control.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (50:29):

Exactly, exactly. I like that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (50:32):

Yeah. I like that. Well, thank you so much. If people want to get your book, Neurodesign: The Art and Science of a Harmonious Living, or if they want to connect with you, where can we send them?

Dr. Rachel Melvald (50:42):

You can go to my website and sorry, it’s another one of those words, psychotecture.com. I don’t know if you can spell it out.

Dr. Sarah Bren (50:51):

We’ll link to it in the show notes so can it.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (50:53):

Or you could just go to Amazon. It’s on Amazon bestseller, Neurodesign: The Art and Science of Harmonious Living. So my website’s psychotexture.com, or you can go to Amazon directly and yeah, purchase the book. I’d love that.

Dr. Sarah Bren (51:07):

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Rachel Melvald (51:10):

Oh, it was such a pleasure. I really enjoy this conversation. You really have such a great way of conceiving of your conversations and describing what I do. So I think this was great.

Dr. Sarah Bren (51:23):

I’m so glad.

(51:23):

If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you. Share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on and let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me and just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how this show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.