419. Q&A: How should I respond when my child touches herself?

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello, welcome to the Beyond the Sessions segment of the Securely Attached podcast where we answer listener questions and I have Dr. Emily Upshur and Dr. Rebecca Hershberg here. So nice to see you ladies. Welcome back.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (00:57):

Thank you. Always a pleasure.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:00):

Yeah. So this is a really great question. I actually don’t think we’ve covered this so much on the podcast yet, so I’m really excited about this one and I really appreciate that this parent wrote this in. So she writes, “Hello, my now three year old has been touching herself for the last five months. It’s turned into something that happens almost every night while she’s trying to get to sleep. We come in to check on her and she’s rubbing against a pillow. We’ve tried not to tie shame to this and use neutral language. We acknowledge that it feels good but it’s something we do in private and as a result she only does it in her room. We don’t necessarily want to tell her to stop, but is there anything else we should do? I assumed this would be a phase, but it’s lasting longer than I thought. She’s also sharing a room with her five-year-old brother who so far hasn’t noticed but will probably catch on soon.

Dr. Emily Upshur (01:50):

Good one.

Dr. Sarah Bren (01:51):

I know. I’m really glad that this parent wrote this in because I do, just first of all, I feel like it’s very … I just want to reinforce that this is really, really normal behavior, typical behavior, and we don’t talk about it very much in society. We don’t talk about it in the parenting space very much. So I feel like the fact that this parent was willing to just break that fourth wall and bring this to us and give us this really nice opportunity to talk about this out loud. Kids actually really do at many, many, many, many ages, far earlier than we realize they explore with self pleasure and touching themselves and it feels good and it can be a very easy and accessible way for them to soothe themselves. And I feel like as adults who have been kind of conditioned to think of this as meaning something very specific and perhaps even shameful from our own internalized narratives around this, we can be really perplexed with how to handle it and it can kick up a lot of our own stuff that we can project onto the situation. So I’m excited to kind of dispel some of those things.

Dr. Emily Upshur (03:01):

I also think it has like a really different gender. I feel like people have very different responses to their sons versus their daughters. There’s a lot to that that I think is really important to acknowledge that sometimes we react differently depending on the gender of our child and what’s behind that. All those back of our head narratives in that as well.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (03:31):

And the sharing the room piece is just an added dimension. I feel like this parent has already hit some really key points for me that I hit with families when they come with this question, which they often do as you said, Sarah, this is really normal, but to address it with neutral language, to not shame it, to talk about how it … To validate that it does feel really good, but it’s something we do and all that stuff they already covered and that’s usually where I start. As far as the phase part, I would kind of push back a little bit on that and just say it’s a phase and a phase can last a long time and certainly self pleasure and masturbation looks really different at different stages of life, but isn’t necessarily something that goes away.

Dr. Sarah Bren (04:26):

Phases out.

Dr. Emily Upshur (04:26):

You grow out of.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (04:30):

Right. So I don’t know. I wonder if we were to talk about what is the part that’s a phase? Is it doing it this often? Is it doing it this time? Is it doing it … But I am a little bit struck by the sharing a room piece because that is potentially a little bit more complicated. And often when I’ve told families to talk with their child about how it’s something that you do in private in your room, it hasn’t been a situation where it’s a shared room.

Dr. Sarah Bren (05:01):

Because that’s the thing is the thing that’s tricky here is the privacy part. Usually when we say it’s something you do in private and so therefore you go into your room, that kind of predicates the room is private. So you need to find this kid a private place where she can be able to do what she’s interested in doing.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (05:22):

That’s where my mind went is like maybe instead of saying it’s something you do in your bedroom, which we normally say precisely because the bedroom is private, we say it’s something that you do in private and maybe that means the bathroom, maybe that means in bed before your brother goes to bed, maybe that means … But the idea that it really isn’t something you do around other people, including people in your family. Again, recruiting people in your family. In a really neutral, non-shaming way, that it’s a private place and a private activity. And so it’s so great that you are loving how it feels and it’s something that we need to start doing more when we’re by ourselves. Something like that. I don’t know, what do you guys think?

Dr. Sarah Bren (06:05):

I agree. And I think trying to understand a little bit about the function it might be serving at this developmental stage is helpful because this is a three year old. There’s a lot of exploring sensory input at this age that’s just really on track for what the whole function of development is in like so many places. So that all tracks. I think the fact that it’s happening almost every night while she’s trying to get to sleep tells me that it has something to do with self soothing and sort of down regulating and the comfort that we tend to seek at nighttime when we’re trying to fall asleep and also the fact that it’s happening almost every night makes me also think that it could be somewhat habitual at this point, that it could maybe not even really … It could have taken on a secondary functioning of just like, this is something I’ve now associated with my sleep cues and it’s kind of more of a habitual pattern than a self soothing, like, oh, I have this cue or this urge to soothe myself.

(07:02):

And so it’s not necessarily that one to one anymore. It could be like a one to two, if that makes any sense. But I guess the reason I’m saying this is because I think we can find alternatives for this child to use at this setting at this time if that setting is not a private setting for her. If she’s just habitually touching herself at nighttime or rubbing against a pillow at nighttime, I think we could try to help her transition that behavior to something else that can work in the setting that’s a shared bedroom at bedtime kind of thing that helps her go to bed and relax.

Dr. Emily Upshur (07:46):

Yeah. I like the idea of like not taking something away, but potentially transferring it to some mother self-soothing thing so that the touching herself can be a private thing, right? So you can still do self-soothing. There are lots of … I like expanding the notion she’s only three. She’s like, ” I found the self-soothing. “There are lots of ways to self-soothe. And I think helping expand that repertoire for her might be sort of a nice way to broaden that and also decouple to your point. I am curious, I wondered the same thing, like is there some thing about the transition to sleep that’s needing more soothing, right? It’s super common. And so can we help with other ways around that? Or can we explore what that might be about a little bit more to have a little bit of a more color on what’s behind that?

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:36):

Yeah. I think a good way to maybe bridge that is not at nighttime when it’s time to go to bed, but like in a chill non bedtime moment, like engaging with her around like, what feels good? I noticed that at nighttime you can go and rub against your pillow a lot and that helps you feel relaxed. What else helps you feel relaxed? So we’re not even really getting into the privacy or the boundaries around a particular behavior yet. We’re just saying like, I think you might be doing that because you’re getting sleepy and you’re trying to relax. What else helps you relax? How do we try to help them expand exploring what their toolbox could be in a moment that’s not related to the actual thing? Because I think we could get into a little bit of a … I feel like we’ll get more friction if we’re trying to change a behavior or expand a behavior when the urge to use it is high and like we also are trying, we have a different agenda, which is like, we need to get everyone to bed.

Dr. Emily Upshur (09:42):

Yes. Strike when the iron is cold for sure.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (09:46):

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Emily Upshur (09:48):

Yeah. I couldn’t agree more.

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (09:50):

And I think I also just wanted to touch on when she said the brother hasn’t noticed, but probably will. First of all, it’s possibly he has noticed and that it’s not that big a deal. But second of all, if he does notice, that’s okay too. It’s not sort of this thing to be like, oh God, we have to nip this in the bud before he notices. Because again, this is normal and it’s okay and there’s a frame where you don’t even have to talk about anything complicated. It’s like, ” Yeah, that’s something that she does to help herself relax and fall asleep. We’re working with her on finding some other ways to learn to do that. What are some things you do to relax? “That doesn’t have to be a complicated conversation and it’s not one they need to live in fear of all within the context of course, as we’ve all said, that it should be something that we move toward having her do by herself and using these different approaches.

Dr. Sarah Bren (10:46):

Okay. I think just to recap because we’ve covered a bunch of different things. One is obviously, which this family’s totally already doing is being really neutral and shame free around it and anchoring it in developmentally appropriate behaviors when we’re talking to ourselves about it, when we’re talking to her about it, when we’re talking to the brother about it, all of that. The other is to recognize the function as perhaps having something related to down regulating and helping her fall asleep and if we can expand her repertoire for what can help her feel relaxed at night and give her some things to practice and use as substitutes and add-ins, that that can start to increase her options at night and you could even be very explicit about setting a boundary that like we’re going to put the pillow away and we’re going to use snuggling with your lovey instead or we’re going to have a fidget toy that you can play with at bedtime or we’re going to whatever, things that you can come up with together.

(11:50):

One thing we didn’t mention that I think is also partly relevant to this is the tactile and sensory stimulation part of this because if we’re talking about the function of it being self soothing and down regulating, but it also could be a function of like sensory seeking too that like if we could give her a sensory substitute where like a fidget toy or something tactile to like have access to like a squishy or weighted blanket or some things that you could like get that sort of sensory input from it’s just different sensory input. I just wanted to add that before I forgot. But the other thing that we talked about was trying to give her a place to do this behavior and protect her space and privacy and options to have a protected place to do this where it is appropriate so that she has that outlet.

(12:47):

It just doesn’t sound like in her bedroom where she shares the room with her brother is the best place when her brother’s in the room. Any other thoughts before we say goodbye to this lovely family?

Dr. Rebecca Hershberg (13:04):

Just another thank you for bringing it to the surface in such a sort of open and honest way.

Dr. Emily Upshur (13:11):

Yeah, I really appreciate it. I mean, boys play with their penises all the time and I think it feels less heavy. I don’t know. As a mom of both, I feel like it feels a little less heavy. So I think this is a really well regulated family with doing a lot of really good things and I think it’s nice that it has a little girl that we’re addressing right now.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:36):

Yeah. I think this is good for little girls everywhere to be able to have everyone give them permission.

Dr. Emily Upshur (13:41):

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:43):

I agree. I agree. Thank you so much. It’s great talking to you. Keep writing in your questions. We love them.

(13:50):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.