432. The gut-brain connection: How food affects your child’s mood, behavior, and mental health with Dr. Uma Naidoo

Dr. Uma Naidoo (00:00):

Generally, Americans are not eating enough fiber. We worry about protein, but we’re really not eating enough fiber. So the biggest bang for your buck is adding in fruit, vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, legumes, healthy whole grains. Just adding in a serving one or two a day compared to what you are eating will help nourish that gut microbiome.

Dr. Sarah Bren (00:26):

When we think about supporting our children’s mental health, we often focus on things like therapy, parenting strategies, sleep, or school. But one of the most powerful influences on how our children think, feel, and behave is something they do every single day, eat. Hi, I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist, mom of two, and the host of Securely Attached. Each week, I sit down with leading experts in psychology, neuroscience, medicine, and child development to translate complex research into practical, grounded insights that help you parent with more clarity and confidence. And today, I’m joined by Dr. Uma Nadu, a Harvard trained nutritional psychiatrist, professional chef, nutrition specialist, and bestselling author of This Is Your Brain on Food and Calm Your Mind with Food. Dr. Naidoo is a pioneer in the field of nutritional psychiatry, studying how the foods that we eat influence our brain health, mood, anxiety, and overall mental wellbeing.

(01:28):

In this conversation, we explore the truly fascinating science behind the gut-brain connection and what it means for parents. Dr. Naidoo explains how nutrition can influence everything from mood and emotional regulation to attention, anxiety, and behavior, not as a replacement for therapy or medication, but as another important tool we can use to support our children’s mental health. We also talk about why the goal isn’t perfection or restrictive diets and what most parents misunderstand about protein and ultra-processed foods. We also talk about simple ways to add more brain supportive nutrients into your family’s meals and why focusing on abundance instead of restriction can make healthy eating far more realistic and sustainable.

(02:12):

And one of the things I love most about this conversation is that it reinforces something we believe deeply at our practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group, that there is rarely one single solution when it comes to helping children and families thrive. Nutrition is one important piece of the puzzle, but so are relationships, emotional health, development, family dynamics, and understanding each child’s unique needs. That’s why at Upshur Bren Psychology Group, our clinical team takes a whole child, whole family approach to care. Whether you’re looking for therapy, parent coaching, neuropsychological evaluations, or supporting, navigating the everyday complexities of parenting, we’re here to help. With both virtual and in-person services, we make it easier for families to access comprehensive, evidence-based care all in one place. You can find a link to Upshur Brend Psychology Group in the episode description wherever you’re listening, or visit upshurbren.com to learn more. Okay. Now here is my conversation with Dr. Uma Naidoo.

(03:10):

Hello, Dr. Naidoo. Thank you so much for coming on. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (03:23):

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here and talk to you today.

Dr. Sarah Bren (03:28):

I am too. I’m very excited about this conversation. I’m very eager to learn from you. You have such an awesome wealth of knowledge on this topic. Can you just orient everyone a little bit to the work that you do and kind of how you got to this connection between food and mental health?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (03:50):

Thank you. So my work is in nutritional lifestyle and metabolic psychiatry. And I first got into it really from observations as an early resident and trainee. I realized pretty early on that food and nutrition is very important. My family, my mom’s a double boarded physician now retired. So healthy eating was just a part of lifestyle cooking from scratch. I was very fortunate in that way. And I love to tell people, when I moved to Boston, it was the first time I met a Pop Tart. So prior to that, I really didn’t understand these types of things. But of course, these sugary treats make an impression. But nutrition is an important part of my life. And so I recognized in residency, especially when we were going deep into psychopharmacology and the side effects, that we were not talking about, well, if you developed weight gain or these side effects, how do you combat it?

(04:45):

Because you desperately need that medication. And I immediately saw that as a gap. And that then panned out into a patient encounter where someone very early on in training kind of accused me of causing him to gain weight. And he was very upset, but he also had this massive cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee, favorite in Boston, in his hand, 20 ounces. And I said, “Well, I understand you’re worried.” And clinically I understood we had not caused the weight gain from the SSRI because he’d only been on it a few days. But he’d read the side effects. So he was informed. And so I explained to him, “Well, I understand this is a problem, but first, can you tell me what’s going on and what did you put in your coffee?” In part, I was really trying to distract, but it also occurred to me what I’d been wondering about.

(05:34):

We’re giving out these medications and prescribing them, but we’re not offering people other tools. So I really valued what he was asking. And he said, “Oh, this amount of creamer, my favorite is hazelnut and eight packets of sugar.” And I was like, “Okay, hold on for a second.” And I showed him on the computer. I’m not a huge calorie condo, but in this instance, it was to prove a point to him. The number of empty calories and unhealthy ingredients he was consuming before he even ate breakfast and how that might be contributing to a lot of weight gain before he even ate an actual solid meal. And his eyes lit up. It was like an aha moment. And I saw the true power of interpreting a simple nutrition fact to someone who really didn’t know or understand it, but that it had such a powerful impact that he wanted to change.

(06:26):

He wanted to understand, well, what can I change to drink healthier coffee, to still enjoy the things I want to do and help my weight because that had been bothering him. And we grew to have a long-term therapeutic relationship. We didn’t need to increase the medication because he was willing to adjust what he was eating and think about it with me. And honestly, this ended up being a test case without my knowing it. And it really deepened my interest in the gut brain connection, the ongoing research. What do we know about it? How to put together my studies as a chef and my studies in nutrition. How could we really put this together for people? And that was really what led to me over time starting my own clinic. But it’s essentially nutritional psychiatry is the study based on the current evidence based on ongoing research of the connection between mood and food.

(07:23):

So how nutrients, supplements, micronutrients, spectral nutrients, all types of elements that make up food impact your mental wellbeing. And it is not independent of medications that you are prescribed or forms of therapy, all of which is hugely important. So it’s really offering someone more tools in their toolkit to feel emotionally stronger. And really that was how this came into focus for me.

Dr. Sarah Bren (07:50):

Yeah. That’s so interesting. And I’m curious this, because you were saying this patient sitting in your office and he’s saying, “I’m frustrated because I’ve gained weight as a side effect of the SSRI.” And the SSRI is treating, I would assume, depression or maybe anxiety in this case.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (08:10):

Combination of both, yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (08:11):

So in his situation, what he’s saying is, “Okay, I’m seeing you, doc, for my depression and anxiety. You gave me a medication. This medication is causing weight gain,” which I recognize what you’re saying is that wasn’t the case. And I follow that. But in his perception, he’s saying, “Hey.” And then you’re working with him to sort of recognize, “Hey, not only is the food and the coffee drinks and whatever, these things that you’re putting into your body, they might be actually the thing that’s changing the weight, but is it also that you’re saying that those foods might also be the reason we might have put you on the SSRI in the first place?” Causing the symptoms of, not causing, but certainly interacting with and maybe amplifying, or maybe even to some degree, causing the symptoms of anxiety and depression that caused us to put you on the SSRI in the first place? It’s a little circular where my mind is at, but like…

Dr. Uma Naidoo (09:10):

Sure. I think that’s a great question. I think the reality is that we don’t know enough to know which happened first. Here’s an example. There’s a huge rise in neurodivergent diagnoses in treatment of ADHD with medications and other symptoms. And I have to wonder, compared to when I was first in training, what is the reason for this massive surge of these types of symptoms and cases? And as a nutritional psychiatrist, one thing, not the only thing, but one thing is how are we eating? How are we eating that may be impacting this? How as a society, as parents, as family members, are we eating and how are we feeding kids? That’s not placing blame. It’s more asking the question. Well, in a similar way, I think we don’t necessarily know if the way he was eating and his weight gain impacting his metabolism, his immunity, and so many other factors, was that driving the symptoms versus a primary mental health condition?

(10:15):

And as you know, with psychiatric diagnoses, we don’t have a tissue diagnosis. We go on a symptom cluster based on bodies of research and committees that come together and put together the current DSM-5 TR manual. And I’ve always had an issue with that, to be honest, because I feel as though maybe we’re misdiagnosing people, maybe we don’t understand all of the symptoms. Often someone has a touch of depression, some anxiety, problems with focus. It never is just easy to fit into a diagnostic coding yet that’s how our system functions. So I think what I learned from his case and also from others is when you address the nutrition and you improve how someone is eating, it’s not just the weight loss or maybe an improvement in cardiac health or some other condition the person may have, but it directly does help lowering anxiety and improving mood over time.

(11:19):

It’s not overnight and someone has to work with a person to be consistent. I really think it’s related to underlying mechanisms of inflammation because now psychiatric research is showing that conditions like depression, anxiety, evening cognitive disorders and focus, mental clarity, all of that are related to underlying inflammation, which we know starts in the gut. And so it’s not the inflammation from a wound, it’s inflammation that gets set up in our gut. So the short answer to your question is we don’t know with the chicken and egg which comes first, but I do know that intervention wise, it will help you if you start to include improved nutrition as part of how you’re addressing a mental health condition.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:02):

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I think I agree fully that we are working in a bit of a black box with the brain and the psyche and all the interlocking bits that we still don’t know that much about with psychology and psychiatry. And so the DSM, which if you guys are listening and aren’t familiar with that, that’s like the diagnostic manual. DSM. What does the S stand for? Diagnostic?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (12:29):

Diagnostic and statistical manual. And TR is the text revised or something like that. So it’s like the manual and then an updated version.

Dr. Sarah Bren (12:39):

Yeah. So it’s the way that we diagnose. It’s the manual for like how we classify different diagnoses in our current industry. But it is limited. And it’s sometimes we’re doing kind of like. I mean, I say this with both love and disdain, but we’re doing the best we can with what we can name. But it really does miss a lot of the nuance.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (13:05):

It misses so much. Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (13:06):

And so it makes sense to me that there is a bit of a, well, if we can’t exactly pinpoint the etiology of everything and we’re going to accept that we’re kind of shooting in the dark a little bit, why not? And we know the SSRIs are safe and indicated. So why not do SSRI plus looking at the food? I love the way that you are very both and. You’re not saying like, throw out the medicine and let’s do this. You’re saying like, if we have multiple evidence-based efficacious treatments, why not layer them together? We don’t have to know which one’s working on what exactly. If we know they work and we know they work better together, why not add that?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (13:55):

I completely agree. It’s almost like stacking. So he was a great test example. We didn’t need to go to a massively high dose of an SSRI or add on a second or third medication, which when you take a step back and look at the medications being prescribed, many people on more than one medication without symptom reduction. And that I definitely have an issue with because it is how our medical system is set up. And I don’t blame doctors and I don’t blame the person on the receiving end of that prescription. I think it’s a system wide issue. And I think that when you can add in a tool, that’s not harmful because we eat. So unless you have an allergy or an intolerance, you can generally eat food. But if you think about it in that way as a mechanism that you’re using for the betterment of your health, but specifically your mental health for yourself and your family, that becomes a huge point that we can pay attention to.

(14:57):

And just in a slow and steady way, no one is saying give up cake on your birthday. No one is saying you’re not running through an airport and the only food you can see is a fast food place. It’s really not about judging ourselves. It’s how can we take the system we live in and adapt our lives to be healthier using the foods, using the knowledge about the foods, how do we navigate the supermarket? How do we feed kids who want different types of food? Because often as parents, what you’re buying and feeding your kids, you’re eating a little snack from here and then you’re having your meal and you’re busy and there’s so much going on. So how do we make it easier for us? And how do we bring in healthy options without making it not taste good and feel like we’re eating cardboard or things we don’t want to eat?

(15:50):

Because like I said, cravings, when someone’s craving a food, they’re not looking for broccoli. As much as it’s one of my favorite vegetables, people are not reaching out for broccoli. It’s usually a candy bar. It’s usually a piece of cake. It’s a donut or something like that. So it just helps to put it in context for people.

Dr. Sarah Bren (16:06):

Yes. And I think it would be super helpful to get into kind of like the tactical thing that may be just helpful for parents to think of in terms of like adding in versus feeling like you’re restricting. But I’m also curious, just to like set that conversation up a bit with the why, because when I think about healthy foods, quote healthy foods, I think a lot of times we associate that with nutrients. “Oh, you eat your broccoli because it has these vitamins in it and it’s good. It has antioxidants, whatever. It’s good for you. Which is totally true and great. But what I’ve learned in listening to your work more is it’s not just about adding in nutrients. That’s one piece. The food does a lot more than that. It also takes away certain things. It reduces inflammation or creates a different level of functioning for all the parts of our system, like our neurotransmitters and our. For things to be working optimally, it facilitates that process.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (17:18):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (17:19):

And also that there are certain foods, probably mostly in the category of like ultra processed foods that can basically just jam up that system or interfere with that system. So there’s actually not just about like eat your food, the food gives you fuel, but it’s actually part of the actual systemic function. And can you talk a little bit in like layman’s terms about this? What is this food doing or interrupting depending on what kind of food we’re eating?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (17:56):

So I think that I usually start by explaining the gut brain connection because it’s certainly one of the main mechanisms in nutritional psychiatry. It’s not the only one, but it’s one of them. And it helps people. The gut brain connection helps explain the mood food connection. And when I say mood food, I also mean conditions like anxiety, which is the most common mental health diagnosis worldwide still. And so it’s important for us to know that and understand it. Well, the gut and brain originate from the exact same cells on the human embryo. And then they divide apart and form two separate organs, which then remain connected by the vagus nerve, which is the longest nerve in the body. And also acts as a two-way bidirectional messaging system for neurotransmitters between the brain and gut and gut and brain. Then you need to understand that where the food is being digested, there are hundreds and trillions of microbes that make up the gut microbiome.

(18:56):

There are positive microbes that love healthy food. And there are also the bad guys, the negative microbes that love all the stuff that is unhealthy. Then you realize that there are serotonin receptors in the brain as well as in the gut, but 90% of serotonin, peripheral serotonin and 95% of receptors are in the gut.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:17):

Can I translate that really quick for people who are not super up to speed on neurotransmitters and like serotonin? So let me see if I’ve got this correct. So basically like as we’re born, we’re developing all this stuff kind of at the same time. What is eventually going to become our brain and eventually like our gut are all starting in the same place and they’re kind of…

Dr. Uma Naidoo (19:39):

Exact same cell line.

Dr. Sarah Bren (19:40):

Being formed from the same materials. And then they’re still communicating with each other because they’re not distinct and separate organs anymore or systems. They are basically just, it’s like a tin can with the cord in between? Yes. They’re like connected. And they use the same tools to talk, right? The same radio frequencies. Neurotransmitters are what we used to think of as living just in the brain, but clearly are not. They’re in the gut. Are they all over the whole body or are they just in the gut and the brain?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (20:15):

The gut is a main focus and the brain is another, but it varies per neurotransmitter. But another way to think about this loosely is like twins that don’t look alike. I don’t want to categorize it into a certain type of twin because it’s very specific to the signs, but loosely translated. They originate from similar cell line in the embryo and then they divide apart. They don’t look alike. The brain doesn’t look like our gut, but it comes from the same tissue. And then they remain connected by the vagus nerve. The thing we need to understand, because it does get confusing, is that the serotonin and SSRIs like we mentioned. The serotonin in the brain is what the SSRI medication is targeting.

Dr. Sarah Bren (21:05):

Right. Because SSRI is an antidepressant that’s used to treat depression and also anxiety and OCD. Yes. And it stands for serotonin reuptake, selective serotonin inhibitor. So it’s basically trying to make serotonin last longer in your brain so that you have its impact more effective, efficiently. So that can help with mood symptoms.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (21:30):

Yes. Now, I have to also tell you that in the last few years, there’s a major research paper published in the British Medical Journal by a pretty claimed well known research group that kind of upended the serotonin hypothesis. That being said, that does not mean you stop taking your SSRI, does not mean it’s not effective, but it challenged that hypothesis upon which many of our medications were designed. So all to say that, yes, it is one way we don’t know all of the science. And that’s again, a little bit of that ambiguity in mental health and in psychiatry, which is why the tools that we can add that are safe, like eating food, hydrating, exercise, sleep, all of that holistic and integrated care is so powerful. So you are correct. There’s the serotonin in the brain and that’s what the SSRIs are targeting. But there’s also serotonin in the gut.

(22:32):

The serotonin in the gut really can’t cross the blood-brain barrier. It needs a little bit of help. It needs to maybe be supported by tryptophan, which is a precursor to serotonin. But it does have a mechanism through that vagus nerve to impact the brain. So it’s not that it doesn’t impact it entirely. There is a mechanism. It’s just not the same one as where the SSRI medications are acting. So for example, the biactive compounds in serotonin rich foods can support brain serotonin through some mechanisms that are, for example, vitamin B6 in food is an essential co-factor for serotonin synthesis. There are other pathways that actually help lower inflammation. So it’s more complicated than just how it appears, but you’ve mentioned how the nutrients in food are important. It’s the plant polyphenols, the carotenates from carrots or the antisyanins from blueberries, but it’s also the antioxidants in foods.

(23:40):

So it’s a system. It’s all of this. And how does it come together on a healthy plate versus just a single blueberry or eating a carrot? It’s how do you put it together?

Dr. Sarah Bren (23:52):

And it’s funny because I can’t help but think about how the medical system is by design, very reductionistic. It’s trying to find like the one thing.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (24:00):

And siloed, yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (24:01):

And food is by all intents and purposes, the opposite full end of that spectrum where it’s like it’s a symphony, it’s an orchestra. Isolating these individual compounds doesn’t really capture the intricacies of it all because they actually do have to work together and they’re designed to work together. Our evolutionary biology has designed it so. When our ancestors would hunt, gather and eat foods, it was the interaction of all those things, elements working together that would create the functional health. So we have this bad habit of trying to reduce it like, ah, well, there’s this one thing in a blueberry that’s really good for you. So take this extract and just take a lot of that. Instead of just being like, well, let’s have a salad with a lot of other things in it. Throw some blueberries in it or have whatever. It doesn’t need to be a salad. You could have burger and fries and some side of blueberries. I don’t know. But I just feel like we forget that we don’t have to isolate everything.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (25:10):

We don’t have to isolate everything. And I think there’s a lot of talk about what a superfood is or a single nutrient. And I’m really trying to move the conversation to what’s on your plate.What’s a nutritional psychiatry plate look like? If you’re going through a menopause transition, what do the foods look like on that plate? It’s thinking about a dietary pattern than a single food. And that’s where it allows for flexibility of you may eat vegetables and seafood, someone else may not eat seafood. Someone else may only. So maybe plant-based. Someone else may favor a certain type of diet. I think it’s adaptable within that as long as they’re not rigid exclusions of entire food groups. That I do have an issue with because even though there are people who consider themselves or their clients successful on certain diets, I do think it’s about eating many foods and having a balance of how much you eat of each portion size, the quality and source of the food versus the quantity, which I think is always shocking in our portions in the US.

(26:28):

But those types of things become important. The source, the quantity, the portion control, to get in the foods because those will contain the nutrients we need. We don’t have to isolate. And we also don’t have to take a whole food and make it into a product that. So I have an issue with orange juice sold on supermarkets because the fiber is removed and it actually has added sugar. It has some vitamins and nutrients, but it has added sugar versus eating an orange where you’re just going to get the fiber and the entire fruit and its vitamins and minerals. So those are principles to think about. You don’t have to exclude these entirely, but learn to read a label. Look at what is in that juice. Look at this added sugar. Think about having that on one day and the actual fruit the other day. These are ways to kind of create more balance while not making it harder for yourself.

Dr. Sarah Bren (27:22):

Yeah. And I’m thinking too, as a mom of two kids who. It’s so interesting kids. Certainly there’s the extreme cases. We’ve done a couple episodes on this podcast about ARFID where we’re really talking about kids who are eating five types of food at most. And so we could talk about that too, but I’m talking more about even your average, just kind of like developmentally picky. There’s such pickiness that comes with raising most kids. It can be really hard sometimes to be. I feel like we get in food ruts where we’re just like, “I am so sick of getting the lunchboxes home every single day for four days and they’re still packed full and they didn’t eat anything.” And then there are days or weeks where they’re like ravenous and they eat like. I’m like it’s feast and famine with these kids. They eat like bears one day and they eat like birds the next.

(28:21):

So one thing I do to keep my own sanity is remind myself like, okay, it’s what they eat in the aggregate, not in an individual day, but also which helps me feel less pressure. What are some strategies for parents who’s like. I think as an adult, I’m more like, “Okay, I need to think about what not to eat.” With my kids, I’m more like, “I need to figure out how to add more with that because that’s where my challenge is with my kids.”

Dr. Uma Naidoo (28:56):

Yeah. No, I think that’s well said. I think that one of the principles I really try and encourage in nutritional psychiatry in the work I do is how do we all feel more abundant with the foods we can eat rather than restrict and remove? Because even if say there’s something as an adult you want to cut back on, you can cut back on it and still add in more servings of leafy greens and vegetables and fiber and other sources of healthy fats and protein. So I think that abundant mentality helps us because when we have to restrict and that’s the issue I have with diets that take away entire food groups is it’s mentality thing. You either crave it or have people go back and eat all of the food that they excluded, which is the problems. And with kids, I completely agree. It’s how can we make it more nutritious?

(29:45):

How can we make a meatball, but add in minced up leafy greens or broccoli, things that they may not identify, carrots that are. So added in veggies to that meatball if they’ll eat it and Then have it with the sauce that they’ll like or whatever it might be. How do we almost help encourage them to move away from the cookies? Because if the cookies are on the counter, they’re going to come home and want to eat that. But if there are almonds or fresh fruit, crudite and veggies available and that’s what they see, then those are the choices. I’m not saying it’s easy, but I think it’s also how we create the environment around it. Because same thing with us. If there’s a cookie there and I’m running out between my Zoom meetings, that’s what I’m going to eat because I’m hungry, I need a snack.

(30:36):

I’ve been on Zooms for three hours and what do I eat next? Similar thing. So I think it’s what are they picky about and how can we add in the things that they’re not getting? And how can we often disguise it in a safe way? Can we put it in a little smoothie? Can they get their greens that way with some fruit? Maybe they like the flavor of the blueberries, but you can add in the spinach. Can we create a meatball or other dish that has those vegetables slightly disguised so that it doesn’t look like a piece of carrot if they don’t like carrots, but it’s minced in or it’s added in that makes it more interesting because they actually will eat that lasagna because they think of it as lasagna. But you’re actually adding in other layers of nutrients to it that makes it helpful for them.

(31:25):

Same thing with different types of hummus. Will they like a color? Will they dip it with a carrot? And then the other dip is almond butter that has a sweet taste, but they can also kind of eat that and be interested in it. So I think we have to. It’s a little bit of experimentation finding what they will eat. It’s certainly not easy. But I think the more times we can kind of do it for the whole family, it does become easier that way. And that way you’re not pretty. Obviously you need to eat as an adult, but what I’m saying is the snacks and those common things that we’re reaching out for, same thing with bottles of water or water fountain or filter, just encouraging just hydration through a little sustainable cup that they have or a little water bottle that they take to school. But just encouraging those types of habits becomes important.

Dr. Sarah Bren (32:21):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that abundance mindset is really very. I relate to that too as an adult in addition to thinking about what I feed my kids. I always do better when I think about what can I add versus what can’t I have? If I think about the things that I do like and I just add a little bit of that to whatever it is that I’m eating. The question is often that I find helpful for myself is like, okay, what else could I put on this plate to bump it up a little bit in terms of its nutrient density?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (33:00):

That’s right. And it makes it easier.

Dr. Sarah Bren (33:01):

Yeah, it does. Because like you were saying, it does not elicit that restriction or that depriving. It doesn’t make me feel as deprived.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (33:12):

That’s right. And it also makes it less overwhelming if you say, “Well, today I could have two extra servings of vegetables from leafy greens in my fridge and from canned chickpeas, which I have in the cupboard. I can rinse out and roast them or toast them or saute them and have that as two extra servings of vegetables. Plus I’m getting protein and fiber and folate from the leafy greens.” So it chunks it down even for us as individuals to add in those healthy, sustainable habits, because what we want to happen is to create these lifestyle changes that we can sustain. So that every time you look in your plate in three weeks from now or whenever it is, like, oh, I need to add more greens. I have canned black beans. I’m not saying I have to cook everything from scratch. Use some easy ways to do it.

(34:09):

Oh, I have frozen cauliflower in the fridge. Frozen vegetables and fruit are flash frozen in the US. So they’re actually frozen at their peak. So they’re pretty nutritious. If there’s a sauce packet, just ignore that because that’s usually not great ingredients. But you can steam or roast that broccoli or brussels sprouts or whatever the veggie may be and add that in because your mindset has changed. And now you’re thinking, well, this looks a little bare with just my piece of salmon or my grilled chicken or my grilled tofu. I need to add a few more colors to this plate and I need to add a few more vegetables to this plate. Because you’re starting to think that way. And I think that incrementally that’s usually what works for people versus add 10 things. It’s too overwhelming, whether it’s for the kids in the family or for the adults.

Dr. Sarah Bren (35:01):

Yes. And what else have you found in terms of like good bang for your buck in terms of like a small ad or a small swap that has a big impact in terms of like the gut brain health?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (35:18):

Right. So one nuance to mention is that fiber is a very, very important nutrient for our gut health. Fiber feeds the microbiome and the gut microbes. But that being said, if you have IBS-IBC, Crohn’s, ulcerative colitis, a gut condition that needs treatment or help, there’s several more. IBS-IBC fiber just suddenly increasing, it could really upset your GI tract, your gut, make you feel uncomfortable because you have an underlying condition which your doctor should be treating or helping you figure out what the underlying factor is. Separate from that, generally Americans are not eating enough fiber. We worry about protein, but we’re really not eating enough fiber. So the biggest bang for your buck is adding in fruit, vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, legumes, healthy whole grains. Just adding in a serving one or two a day compared to what you are eating will help nourish that gut microbiome.

(36:21):

So maybe it’s steamed broccoli and cauliflower and some leafy greens. Maybe it’s extra greens in your salad. Switch it up, add in some romaine lettuce and arugula and other things to make it more interesting, add more colors. All of those actually bring in different nutrients, but the main one I’m speaking about is fiber. So I think that would be something that can help all of us through many, many different types of food. Then as an additional layer or a stacking effect, you still can get the protein, the vitamins, minerals from these foods as well. And say you’re adding in beans and legumes, you can get some protein in there too. If you add in nuts and seeds like chia seeds or flax seeds, you get protein and fiber from that as well and plant-based omega-3s. So you’re getting this stacking effect on your nutrition just from the choices you’re making.

Dr. Sarah Bren (37:13):

Yeah. It’s interesting because you mentioned that we really hyper focus on protein right now, but we’re not getting enough fiber. And I think that parents also have a lot of anxiety about their kids getting hungry. They come home from school hangry. And so we are thinking like, okay, protein, protein, protein, protein, protein. And so maybe like you’re adding protein powder to smoothies or extra protein to just make, because I think the thought process may be if I keep adding protein, they will stay hungry longer or stay full longer. Is that the case? Is it possible that it’s a bit of a red herring? Or is that helpful to be bulking up our kids’ protein? I feel like kids can get a lot of protein just from their typical diet without the added stuff, but I’m actually not sure.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (38:11):

So I think that the more times we can actually just add to their food through how they’re eating, crispy chickpea snack, which you can make in your oven, little chicken nuggets which you make at home, which don’t have to have the breading and the processing that a store bought version would have very easy to cook in an air fryer or an oven. More times we can add whole food sources, the better. Protein is definitely filling. But remember, it’s also the healthy fat. So adding in a slice of avocado, adding in that as well. And then the fiber. So there’s no harm in protein assatiating and filling and helps their bodies grow. But I would maybe pair that with a vegetable or pair that with other things as well. If they don’t consume meat, then chickpeas, legumes, making snacks from those nut butters, hummus and those types, that idea of foods will help.

(39:09):

I understand what you’re saying about making sure they’re full, but also getting them to eat things like celery sticks with a nut, but making it interesting or making it a color, making it the idea of ants on a log or all those little things that we had as kids. How can you make it healthy that they are interested? Colors and textures make it more interesting. I think that way, if it’s prepped and in the fridge, it’s there and it’s easy for you and it’s easy for them. So simple ideas like that. I do like the idea of if they’re like a crispy crunchy snack, then using a vehicle like tofu that can be crisped up if they’ll eat it or chickpeas, which is a little bit more attainable.

Dr. Sarah Bren (39:58):

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I see, it’s almost like this marketing, this fierce, fear tactic marketing to parents. Yeah. They’re like, parents are, we believe we get this message. Okay. Kids need more protein, more protein, more protein. And so then we’re getting sold all of these snacks, like very hyper protein. But they’ve got 18 grams of added protein.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (40:25):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah Bren (40:25):

So it’s like, oh, I’ll buy that verse. And I fall pray to that as well.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (40:31):

I think you make an excellent point. I think we all do. I think we all do, but it is also the marketing. It’s all the marketing, right? Because you can have a protein chip, but it’s still ultra processed. And if you read the other ingredients, it may have the 10 grams of protein. But if you read the other ingredients, they’re not only ultra processed. They’re not that healthy for the child or the gut or their weight or anything else. So I think that being careful about which snacks you choose, here’s a thought. Cheer seeds have protein and fiber. And all you need is two ingredients to make a little cheer pudding and you can batch make them on the weekend for the whole week. You can add cacao flavonol or cacao powder to make it a chocolate flavor. You can add berries, nuts and seeds. You can add coconut flakes in it.

(41:17):

You can add fruit, whatever you’d like. But in a very small container, that’s a pretty nutritious snack for a kid that can be made really interesting. And it brings both protein and fiber, but you’re getting it from an actual food source. I think that’s the issue I have with these snacks is that yes, they’re adding in protein, but you’re also getting 19 less healthy ingredients with it. And so absolutely once in a while or however you spend, but let’s not rely entirely on those because it’s kind of when there was a gluten-free craze. I thought the most hilarious thing was seeing a bottle of water that was labeled gluten-free. So similar now, protein, everything has protein. So I think it’s being selective about the snack, finding a cleaner snack when you can.

(42:04):

Understanding that we’re busy. So if this is the week where you’re super busy, well, that’s the week we’re going to use these snacks to help us out. But the rest of the time, what can we do to balance out some other stuff? Little things, right? So how can you take an egg scramble? Instead of making it an omelet, use your cupcake pan and make little mini quiches. Bake it in the oven, freeze them and throw them for the family during the week. That’s a little snack you can add in spinach and veggies. There’s protein right there as a healthy snack, which if they heated after school with a little bit of sauce that they like can be a healthy snack, but it’s an actual food. Yogurt, cottage cheese, flavored at home with cinnamon and berries and seeds and snacks make it interesting for them or chopped fruit. And it’s actually a good source of protein. So these are ways to just think out of the box and make it easier for yourself and cut back on the processed snacks when you can.

Dr. Sarah Bren (43:09):

Yes. I very deeply appreciate your middle of the road validation approach of like, do what you can when you can. Be thougtful and mindful of it. Understand the why behind it. Don’t make it crazily hard for yourself either. And don’t beat yourself up. Because we got to be realistic. And I do think the goal of perfection can sometimes stop us from even bothering to try the little pieces.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (43:41):

Exactly. I’m a big believer that it’s about excellence and not perfection. And when I say excellence, I mean improving where we’re from, the baseline from which we are coming. So it’s, can we add in something more? It’s not about do I have the perfect plate, the perfect fruit, the perfect food, the perfect balance because none of us do. That will in itself psychologically will make us feel unhappy, resentful, upset, irritable, and very unhappy with ourselves. And I think if we can just come from a place of what can we do to improve things along the continuum? And I have years of saying when patients do this, you are more likely to succeed. One of the greatest things for me is getting an email or a message from a patient who 10 years later is following the plan and came back from vacation and was like, “I had the drinks that I like and the food that I enjoy at this location, but I was also exercising, practicing mindfulness, adding in my servings of vegetables.

(44:46):

And I didn’t gain that much weight. Maybe I will work it off in the gym this week or I didn’t gain weight at all because I just followed what I usually do, ate of my healthy habits. And 80% of the time I did what I usually do. And 20% of the time I enjoyed whatever my husband and the rest of the family was eating.” So we’ve shown that getting to that place of consistency and balance, it’s also helped by your attitude, that sense of abundance and not feeling restricted or not standing in judgment of yourself. And I think it’s hard to get through the day as it is because we’re all so busy. So what can we do to make our lives better?

Dr. Sarah Bren (45:30):

Yes. Oh, I appreciate that so much. And you talk a lot about all of these great strategies you have in your book, This Is Your Brain On Food. And if people want to get that book, get connected with you, learn more about your work, how can we connect them to you? Where can they go?

Dr. Uma Naidoo (45:48):

Thank you. So I have two books. The first book is This Is Your Brain on Food. And both books have an entire chapter of recipes and plans to follow. And that book is really about many different conditions in mental health, how to eat to help and the things to cut back on to help those conditions as well. And the second book is really about anxiety, which again is so common, but how to eat for anxiety. It has an anti-anxiety shopping list, a protocol and recipes as well. Recipes match the protocol. So it really is trying to make it as easy for you as possible. And that book is called Calm Your Mind with Food. So a combination of both those books will really just help you to create easier strategies for yourself and your family. You can always find me at D-R-U-M-A-N-A-I-D-O-O, which is social media, but more importantly, go to my website and get my free newsletter, which is umanaidoomd.com. And you’ll be able to find my Substack newsletter where I write about free information every single week.

Dr. Sarah Bren (46:57):

Amazing. Oh, sign up for that newsletter. We’ll put links to all that in the show notes too, so it’s easy for everyone to find. And thank you. Thank you so much.

Dr. Uma Naidoo (47:09):

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Dr. Sarah Bren (47:10):

This is a pleasure.

(47:11):

Thank you so much for listening. I hope this conversation has helped you to see food in a new light, not as something to perfect or stress over, but as one more meaningful way that we can support our children’s brains, bodies, and emotional wellbeing. One of my favorite takeaways from this conversation is that supporting our kids is rarely about finding one magic solution. Whether we’re talking about nutrition, relationships, sleep, therapy, or parenting strategies, it’s often the small, consistent choices we make over time that have the biggest impact. Progress, not perfection is really what helps families thrive. If you’d like to learn more about Dr. Naidoo’s work, I’ve linked both her books. This is Your Brain on Food and Calm Your Mind with Food, along with her website and newsletter in the episode description.

(48:05):

And if today’s conversation left you thinking about the many different pieces that contribute to your child’s wellbeing, I’ve also added a link to our practice, Upshur Bren Psychology Group in the episode description. At Upshur Brend Psychology Group, we take a whole child, whole family approach to care, offering therapy, parent coaching, neuropsychological evaluations, and specialized support for children, parents, and families all in one place. With both in-person services in Westchester, New York and virtual sessions worldwide, we make it convenient for you to receive support wherever you are. You can find a direct link to Upshur Bren Psychology Group in the episode description or visit upshurbren.com to learn more or schedule a free consultation. That’s U-P-S-H-U-R-B-R-E-N.com. I’ll be back again on Thursday answering one of your parenting questions in our Beyond the Sessions Q&A episode. And until then, don’t be a stranger.