Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. Welcome back to Beyond the Sessions segment of the Securely Attached podcast where we answer your listener questions. I have Dr. Rebecca Hershberg with me today. Welcome back.

Dr. Rebecca (00:54):

Thank you always. I love this.

Dr. Sarah (00:57):

My favorite way to spend my Thursdays.

(01:01):

So I got a question from a mom who is clearly an avid listener of the podcast because her question is very specific and I really love it, and it’s going to ask us to come up with some very specific examples, which I think is going to be really fun. Okay, so she goes, in many of your podcasts you describe the difference between permissive parenting and authoritative parenting styles. I understand the difference in theory, but in day-to-day practical situations, it’s often hard for me to determine if what I’m doing is permissive or not. Could you please share a lot of specific examples to compare in common toddler daily situations, how a parent can respond in a permissive style versus an authoritative parenting style?

Dr. Rebecca (01:52):

Before we dive in, and I have so many things to say, I’m sure you do too. Do you want to take a second just explaining to listeners who may not know what all three of those words mean?

Dr. Sarah (02:03):

Yes, yes. Okay, so this mom is bringing up, she mentions two types of parenting styles and there’s a third that you’re alluding to. So she’s talking about permissive parenting, which basically means we’re really, really warm and really connected to our kids, and we’re creating that safety, but we’re missing the boundaries. We’re lacking that piece where we have really clear expectations that we’re communicating with our kid and we’re holding them right limits and boundaries. So then there’s the authoritative, which he talks about. That’s where we have those limits and boundaries, and we’re still warm, right? We’re still prioritizing the relationship. We’re using the relationship and our attunement with our kid and our ability to co-regulate with them, but we’re using that as a vehicle to help them stay in the lines, help them know where the lines are and stay inside of them. It’s very containing, right?

(02:59):

I hold the boundary, I let you know what the boundary is and I’m holding it. You can get upset, I could stay warm, but I’m going to not let you do this thing, right? That’s not safe for you to do or not part of our family values, whatever that’s authoritative. The third one that shouldn’t mention that you’re talking alluding to is authoritarian, and that’s where you have the boundaries. You’ve got a lot of boundaries and limits, and you’ll hold them, but you may do it in a less warm way. There’s more of a punitive quality, a more of a sort of hierarchy, power dynamic. I set the rules and I will not accept you. You’ll do what I say, and I’m not necessarily going to get into that warm relational place with you to help you understand the boundaries. I’m just going to hold them and say, you need to figure this out.

Dr. Rebecca (03:53):

In my book and in talks that I give and whatnot, I just talk about love and limits, right? Research shows that the best way to be a parent for all kinds of positive outcomes for our kids is high love and high limits not a great way to be is either high love and low limits or high limits and low love, and then certainly low love and low limits is not ideal. There’s a little bit of nuanced cultural research that certainly at some point we can get into or people can Google or whatever. But the bottom line is that generally, I think this listener is saying, I really try to have high love and high limits. I try to be really warm with my kid and set a lot of rules, but sometimes I find the rules slipping a little bit and I’m a little more permissive that I want to be. How can I tell the difference and what do I do about it?

Dr. Sarah (04:41):

Is that that was such a perfectly succinct description. Thank you.

Dr. Rebecca (04:48):

And I think part of my being succinct is also pointing out what I wanted to say first to this listener, which is like I find myself saying this a lot to your listeners who I think are some of the most devoted a plus students, but honey, you don’t have to worry about the words. We’re all of them all the time kind of course, we need to strive. Big picture. I always say we need to trend toward high love and high limits, and whenever we get lost in the noise of parenting, if something’s not going well at home, doesn’t feel good, our kids are behaving in a way that’s challenging. That’s the first place we go. How are we doing on love? How are we doing on connectedness, on time together, on warmth, and how are we doing on limits on having clear expectations and boundaries? And typically not always one of those is a little out of kilter. And so you correct, and it’s almost like you’re walking this tightrope as a parent and you are always slipping on one side or the other. It sounds like this parent is feeling like she mostly slips toward the permissive, but I may have a weekend day, a Saturday in which I’m bouncing back and forth.

Dr. Sarah (05:57):

So let’s go into that Saturday. I think she wants also very specific examples of what does permissive parenting look like in the moment versus an authoritative parenting. And I think it is important to say the goal is not to always be authoritative, even though we know that that’s going to be our compass. Like you said, we want to be trending towards high love, high limits. That’s authoritative, but also it is not a straight line. In one afternoon, I could totally go from being permissive to being, well, usually it looks like I start out authoritative and then I go permissive, permissive, permissive, permissive, authoritarian. That’s usually my pendulum. I sort of start out with my energy and I’m like, I’m going to set a very specific expectation. I’m going to tell you what the, let’s just use an example. I was about to say, I want to give an example.

(07:05):

So we’re in the kitchen. I’ll use one from today. We’re in the kitchen and we’ve still have so much Halloween candy in my house from late months later, and my kids keep wanting to, they know where it is, which is probably my problem. I don’t put it where they can’t find it. And they wanted candy before we were going to go to breakfast. And I was like, there’s no candy before breakfast. My love. I was fine. I was like, sweet. No, no, there’s no candy before breakfast. There’s my authoritative limit, right? I am not. It’s just simple. And then there was a lot of asking for candy anyway, and we moved on, but then there was more there. Can I just have one piece now? How about one piece when we get home, how about one, I’m going to put some pieces of candy in my bag and then I won’t eat them, but I’ll have them later and I’m like, whatever, fine.

(08:05):

Just put the candy or bag. I don’t care. I want to get out of the house. I want to go to brunch. I’m hungry. Leave me alone. And so then there’s all this disaster permissive, I don’t whatever. Do what you want. Don’t follow my limit. I just don’t care. And then there was a fight in the car about who is going to hold the bag that had the candy in it. And I was like, okay, that is it. Give me the candy right now. We’re done. And there was my authoritarian break. Do you feel like that happens with you sometimes where it’s like,

Dr. Rebecca (08:42):

Of course it’s always in that order. Always in that order, which is a way of saying we all start out great, exhausting. If it were easy, we wouldn’t have our careers. But I was thinking because she asked for toddlers, I was thinking about when my kids were toddlers, they’re a little older now, and I was thinking about, there’s a swing set. We don’t have a swing set, but our neighbors across the street who are close friends have a swing set. And one of my kids would, my younger one would always be doing something that wasn’t safe. And I would start out like, oh, honey, I know you want to go up there all by yourself and bare feet and do whatever. It’s so frustrating not to be able to, you can’t. I’m here to keep you safe saying all the things and setting the limit on what he would do on the swing set.

(09:33):

And then he’d be so excited. I mean, it’s like the candy with your kids. He’d be so excited. Please, can I do it? Look, I won’t hurt myself. I won’t hurt myself. I won’t hurt, goes up, does the thing, falls down, hurts himself. And instead of doing what I usually do when my kids are hurt, oh sweetie, I’m like, well, look what happened. As if it wasn’t my fault that I let the boundary go. It was like, well, what do you think was going to happen? He’s like, I am three. I didn’t obviously know, which is why I kept begging you to do it. I mean, he didn’t say this. I, so I think that’s a really, really common trap. And I think when I try to put myself in the position of this mom who’s asking the question one way to tell, again, a very imperfect way with the understanding, we’re all kind of fudging it all the time.

(10:26):

But one way to tell if you’re being too permissive is to sort of check in with your body and your feelings. Am I giving in a thoughtful and intentional way because I’ve rethought about this situation? Or am I just throwing up my hands because I’m a exhausted and I can’t deal? And to me, that’s the difference between permissive and authoritative. That becomes important if you’re struggling. So in my book, I talk about, I will never forget, I may have even talked about it on this podcast before, but when my older son actually when he was three middle of the night shrieking and yelling, I go into him, I’m like, what is happening? He goes, I need some more ice in my water. Very sophisticated palette, my son.

(11:12):

And my immediate response was Absolutely not. No way. This is not an emergency. I’m not getting you ice. You can’t believe you woke me up for that, whatever it was. And he keeps screaming, I want the ice. I want the ice. And I actually, and this is kind of the premise of my book, I was able, this is not something I can always do to pause and be like, wait, what do I want to do here? What makes the most sense? And I realized I have an infant sleeping next door. I have a big presentation the next day at work and that it made most sense for me to give in and get him the water. And so I said out loud, I am making a decision to go get you water so that your brother doesn’t wake up and whatever it was, and he was three, he wasn’t going to take him in, but it was good practice for me, and I went to get him the water.

(12:06):

To me, that felt okay. It felt still in line with authoritative because I was framing this as given the situation, which is not ideal. My kid is having a tantrum, but I am present enough and grounded enough to make a choice about what I want to do and to do it. If I had said in a frazzled, dysregulated moment, you know what? Fine, forget it. I’ll get you water enough. Which again, there have been plenty of times I do that feels more permissive, and that becomes a place where then it’s hard to rein it back. In the first one, parents will say, well, what if then he asks you for water, for ice in his water every single night, or isn’t it a slippery slope? But if I frame it as my decision and that I’m changing my mind, then I always can make a different choice the next. It doesn’t come across as inconsistent. So I think it’s the same thing. If I think of your candy example, my guess is if you had said to your kids, hold on, let me think about it for a second. Okay, we have a lot of Halloween candy. It’s this time in the morning. It’s not my ideal candy time, but it’s also not that different. I can always give you less later. Okay, fine. You can each have a piece of candy.

(13:22):

My guess is if when they would start fighting about the bag in the car, you wouldn’t have been so upset because you would’ve made an intentional decision.

Dr. Sarah (13:33):

Totally. And I think because what I’m thinking about as you’re talking is when you, and this is I think to your point about checking your body and see how you feel, because usually when we are being permissive, it’s a reactive thing either to being exhausted and not wanting to deal, or it’s like building up resentment. If I’m very permissive a lot of the time, oftentimes I then feel resentful of my kids for what feels like them taking advantage of me yet, and then that’s when if I get frustrated enough, I flip over to that sort of authoritarian low love, high limit kind of unreasonableness, just do what I said because I said it and stop whining, which I say usually because my resentment at being taken advantage of because my boundaries were being crossed gets me resentful enough that I flip over to frustrated and angry, but it’s my responsibility to protect my boundaries. And that’s the thing that’s…

Dr. Rebecca (14:45):

And that happens with adults too.

Dr. Sarah (14:46):

Totally,

Dr. Rebecca (14:46):

I mean that’s a dynamic in friendships or in marriages. I think the other thing that comes up for me around parenting, which I talk about a lot, is this idea of triage. You can’t do all the things all the time. You can’t always be an authoritative parent who’s helping your kid develop autonomy, who’s getting everywhere on time. Something’s got to give. And so again, if you can stay grounded enough to pause and much like a nurse, let’s say in an emergency room, which is why I use the word triage. What do I want to do here? Another specific example, your kid is screaming and crying because they want another cookie. Your 2-year-old is screaming, crying because they want another cookie. Can you pause and say, what’s happening here? Oh, we have to be at the pediatrician in 10 minutes. And that might be like, okay, I’m going to give my child a cookie even though they’re tantruming because that’s my priority.

(15:50):

It might be we’re just hanging out at home, I’m going to hold the line. Or maybe we’re hanging out at home, but there’s a sleeping newborn, and again, you want to trend, I always use the word trend, trend toward consistency. It’s not like every single time you’re making a new rule, ideally you are setting a clear boundary in a loving and warm way. That’s what you’re trending toward. That’s authoritative parenting, but a given situation that may not make the most sense if you have to be at the pediatrician or if your newborn is screaming and yelling in the other room, and that’s a crazy way to set a boundary. You’re allowed to say, no, you can’t be scanning right now and go get your cookie and go get your newborn. These are all choice points that are one-offs, and I think there’s often a fear.

(16:42):

It’s like, well, if I do this thing that’s not perfect, it all comes back to this, then am I going to ruin everything? No, it’s one choice point where you can’t, and again, and that’s why I feel like the best tip we can give this parent that I try to utilize myself and tell my clients is, can you narrate out loud If you can just pause and narrate out loud that you are changing your mind and here’s why. You’re in a really, just the exercise of doing that puts you in a really different state of mind and prevents, in my opinion, a lot of that kind of fallout you’re describing of the resentment. And if you can just say, I know I said I’m not giving you another cookie. I just looked at my watch and realized we have to be at the pediatrician in 10 minutes, so right now I’m going to give you another cookie. I’m changing my mind. Even if your kid is two and has basically no idea what you’re talking about, just that energy, just your ability to tell yourself and ground yourself in your position of authority and flexibility is so powerful.

Dr. Sarah (17:51):

But this is what I mean by the building up of resentment. In a way, we talk about permissive and authoritative and authoritarian in terms of love and limits, but in a lot of ways we can be really loving and know what our limits are and change, like you said, our limits in the moment. If I feel my subjective perception that my limits are being unattended to, even if I’m the one who’s not necessarily holding them, I will build resentment and then I’m being reactive. When I can slow down and notice how I’m feeling, what I think is the most important thing in this moment and make a decision, have that choice that’s not reactive, that’s responding, that’s not knee jerk, right? You are embodying a sense of agency in that moment as a parent. And so when you do that, you are less likely to feel resentful because what’s happening is not your boundary is being ignored either by you or by your child, but your boundary is changing.

(18:57):

I’m changing my boundary or my limit to fit this situation better for all of us doing mental arithmetic in the moment, live adapting, and now because I have consciously changed my perception of what my boundary needs to be in this moment, I now don’t build the resentment. I’ve just moved the boundary, and that’s okay. I think parents get really nervous about moving boundaries. Like you were saying, we think, oh God, I’m going to teach my kid that they can’t rely on what I say or that I’m going to set a tone, then they’re going to always want ice in 3:00 AM and expect me to give it to them. It’s like, no, we can change a boundary in this moment that does not get permanently placed. Now that we’ve moved the goalpost and it will never go back. We can give context to your point, you know what? And that’s why the narrating out loud is really important. You know what? This isn’t working right now. You’re showing me that you can’t handle this, or I’m realizing how much time we have left, and so I have decided we’re going to change the plan.

Dr. Rebecca (20:03):

Or I didn’t realize just how badly you wanted a cookie. And again, it may be that it gives your child the sort of green light to protest in the same way the next day, but it may not, may be that the next day they do the same thing, in which case you say, okay, now I’m going to start holding my limit a little firmer because that clearly opened the door to them thinking that they could scream and yell and get another cookie. And so now I’m going to change course. Or they might not scream and yell and get another cookie. It turns out that actually they did really want one super badly on a Tuesday and they don’t want on Wednesday.

Dr. Sarah (20:39):

And I wonder if it’s helpful too for this parent who’s asking, and anyone who’s interested in this idea gets confused by this idea is maybe we need to think about, again, not that permissive is no limits and authoritative is good limits, but the permissive is saying it’s more like authoritative for me is the embodiment of authority in getting to decide where the limits get put. And if I am trying to be an authoritative parent, I also understand that I get to decide, and I trust that my child trusts my authority, not where I think the authoritarian parent gets kind of stuck in. It could be a bit rigid if that’s your predominant style, is that I don’t actually trust in my authority and my ability for my child to trust my authority and that it can move around. It’s more that the limits are the authority and they have to be rigidly held versus having, if it’s really not about the actual limits in authoritarian parenting, the limits are so fixed that they hold all the power.

Dr. Rebecca (21:48):

Right, exactly.

Dr. Sarah (21:50):

Versus I move it, I decide, and I’m going to be flexible, but it all kind of lives in me.

Dr. Rebecca (21:58):

Yeah, no, I think that’s a great way to put it. I was just going to say that I remember when I worked in the city, I’ll never forget, this woman comes into my office, my patient comes into my office, she looks like she’s been through active combat. What’s going on? She’s like, I was up till however late at night, and I was like, what’s going on? She’s, she was like, I argued with so-and-so my child about taking a bath for three hours. And so I said, without even thinking about it, child psychologist, parenting expert, I was like, why didn’t you just tell me you could skip a bath? I was like, why didn’t you just tell him no bath? And she looked at me, why didn’t, she was like, wait, I’m allowed to do that. She was so stuck on this idea of, but I thought, because again, it’s all these parenting things that we read. I thought once I set a limit, I wasn’t allowed to change my mind and I’m picturing this poor woman, I just wanted to give her a hug. It’s like, you did this for three hours. It’s okay to just say again, as you said, Sarah, this isn’t working. For whatever reason, this just isn’t working. I call time of death 7:30 PM we’re done with the bath thing.

Dr. Sarah (23:09):

And I do this in situations. I’ve talked about this a lot. For another example of this, if you want a really clear example in my house, toothbrushing has, especially during the toddler years, it’s gotten a lot better now, but it’s still fucking, it’s really tough. And my kids really hate brushing their teeth, but when they were toddlers, it was the time of day I dreaded more than anything because it was always going to be a fight. And I’ve done all kinds of things to try to make it better, but at the same time, there would be moments where I would literally say, and I know if my dentist is listening, please don’t get mad. I know that brushing your teeth is very important and it’s a value, but it’s also a health thing. It’s a thing that cannot be up for negotiation in general. And I think in my family, a lot of times there would be situations where I was like, I can’t do this, and I know that if I keep fighting with you, I have a choice here.

(24:08):

Basically, if I want to go permissive, I can say, alright, I don’t forget it. I’m not brushing your teeth tonight. If I was going to go authoritarian and say, the limit is the limit and I’m bound by this and I feel hamstrung by the fact that this limit is set and we cannot deviate from it, I could be like the mom in your example where I could sit there for five hours and fight my kid, or I could hold them down and force brush their teeth, which I’ve definitely done, doesn’t go very well, and I don’t like how, I just doesn’t feel good to anybody, so I don’t want to do that. And then I feel like there’s this fourth option that to me could look permissive if you are kind of sticking with the limit is the limit, and if you move the limit, that’s permissiveness, but how you move the limit to your point that we’ve been talking about is really important.

(24:59):

And so there are times where I will say to my kid, knowing full well that I’m breaking a mom rule, like a cardinal parenting rule of brushed your teeth. And I’ll say, you know what? You are showing me you can’t handle this right now. It is too hard. I hear you. I’ve decided that we are going to change the plan tonight and we’re going to brush your teeth in the morning because you’re going to have more energy and I’m going to have more energy and we will deal with it then. And now we’re going to go to bed. And that to me could be seen as permissive in the sense that I moved the limit.

Dr. Rebecca (25:34):

But you have so much confidence and poise and ease and calm, and that’s what communicates again, that you are the authority, which is what you’re aiming for in a warm and loving way.

Dr. Sarah (25:48):

And so for me, that feels authoritative because again, this is where I think we can get stuck on what’s the boundary. The boundary is a red herring. I actually think it is the way that you make the choice. Are you being reactive or avoidant or are you being responding responsive, thinking it through and making a decision? And does the onus of the authority live within you in the moment, even if you choose to move the goalpost? So that would be another example of where you could see this happen and where I’ve certainly done it, even with things that feel like I’m breaking a rule that I’m not allowed to break.

Dr. Rebecca (26:31):

Yeah, I’m just trying to think. I got a little bit stuck on is the boundary, the red herring? I don’t think so. I think that’s taking it one step too far. I think you’re right that it’s not always about the boundary, it’s about how you think of the boundary. But I also think there’s a version of permissive parenting where parents just don’t have boundaries and boundaries themselves are very important. And I don’t want to…

Dr. Sarah (26:53):

The relationship to the boundary is the boundary rigid? Is the boundary the one that’s deciding who’s making the rule or is the parent deciding who’s making the rule?

Dr. Rebecca (27:03):

I think that’s a better way to put it. Right?

Dr. Sarah (27:06):

Yeah. So I hope this answers her question, and I love when people ask us…

Dr. Rebecca (27:14):

We may have answered the question this time.

Dr. Sarah (27:16):

I know. I think we did. It took us a bit. We got there, we got there. So please keep writing in questions. We love it. We love it when you make us give you something very specific, and I hope we delivered. So we will see you guys all again soon. I’ll talk to you soon.

Dr. Rebecca (27:36):

Thank you. Always. So fun.

Dr. Sarah (27:39):

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca (27:39):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (27:41):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.