376. How to build a family culture of play: Raising self-directed kids who play independently with Lizzie Assa

Lizzie (00:00):

There’s so much discourse on social, on TikTok, on all these things. You should always play with your kids. You should never play with your kids. I know. And the truth of the matter is you should do whatever you want with your kids because they’re your kids and that’s the best part of parenting is that you get to decide, but you can be intentional about your own role in their play.

Dr. Sarah (00:24):

So many of us parents feel pressure to constantly guide, structure, or engage our children. But some of the most important developmental work actually happens when kids are given the space to play on their own. In those moments, children are building imagination, problem solving skills, a ton of executive functioning skills, and they’re beginning to internalize their own sense of confidence in themselves. Hi, welcome to Securely Attached. I’m Dr. Sarah Bren, a clinical psychologist and mom of two. In this podcast, I’ve taken all of my clinical experience, current research on brain science and child psychology, and the insights that I’ve gained on my own parenting journey and distilled everything down into easy to understand and actionable parenting insights so you can tune out the noise and tune into your own authentic parenting voice with confidence and calm. And joining me once again on this show this week is Lizzie Assa.

(01:26):

Lizzie is the founder of The Workspace for Children and one of the leading voices helping parents understand and support independent play. Her new book, But I’m Bored: Discover the Power of Independent Play to Raise Confident, Resilient Kids, is out today, and it is an inspiring real world guide to fostering independent play in children of ages one to eight, both as a vital skill for kids’ development and an essential act for modern parents’ wellbeing and sanity. In this conversation, we talk about what independent play actually looks like across different ages. We talk about how to create simple play environments that invite creativity and what types of play can really reveal about what a child might be working through emotionally and very specific and doable ways that parents can support their own child’s unique play style so that independent play lasts longer and feels more successful. I’m so excited for you to hear this conversation.

(02:33):

Hi, Lizzie. Welcome back to the show. I’m so happy to have you here again.

Lizzie (02:37):

I’m so, so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sarah (02:40):

Yay. And so you have a book coming out. I do. It’s called But I’m Bored. And I am so personally excited about this book because you are someone who I have been as a parent. I follow lots of people as a professional in the parenting space, as inspiration because I agree with things and whatever, peer to peer. But I follow your content as a mom. I’ve always have. I’ve always been like, okay, you help me solve my problems that I have with my own children. And so when I saw that you were coming out with a book, I was like, cannot wait because I just really like the way you present things. It’s so accessible and realistic and non-perfectionistic, not fake. It’s just like, okay, yeah, this is my vibe.

Lizzie (03:37):

Thank you. Thank you so much. That means the world.

Dr. Sarah (03:41):

So wait, I really, I know so much about the way you approach play and parenthood, and I definitely recommend going back. I’ll link in the show notes, our last episode where we talked a little bit about this as well. But for people who are new to your work, can you share a little bit about your journey and the work you’ve done with families and how that ultimately led to this book?

Lizzie (04:08):

Yeah, sure. So I mean, I’ve been in the parenting and play space for maybe like 12 or 15 years sort of online, but before that I was an early childhood teacher and I really, I had the opportunity to work in some of the best preschools in New York City with people who really, really understood the true nature of child-led play-based environments and how that can impact a child’s whole development. And really I learned how to learn about children. And so once we connected that to play and play being, as you hear all the time, a child’s work, but really believing in that, that kind of put the pieces together to me to be like, okay. And as I started to write this book, there’s so much noise in the parenting space and it’s really a lot. And I resisted writing the book for a long time because I didn’t want to add to more shoulds or do it this way, not this way or any of that stuff.

(05:09):

But then I realized like this is actually kind of simple and not only does it help kids play more, which we know is so important, but it helps the entire family culture. It helps the entire family vibe because when you have kids who love to play and can play independently, then you have parents and caregivers who get time back for themselves and can show up better and it kind of really helps everyone. And I’m not talking about setting up complicated sensory bins or art projects or crafts. I’m talking about just kind of plugging play into our everyday lives in the same way that we reserve time for the soccer, for soccer or for the tutor or for ballet class. You don’t have to revamp your entire world. You don’t have to reboot your parenting. These are just ideas that you can assimilate into what you’re already doing.

Dr. Sarah (06:01):

Yes. I think that’s why I liked your approach to play so much because one, I think it comes from this core understanding of child development and cognitive development and social emotional development and even like a gross motor development. Play is the vehicle by which all of that stuff happens. And we, I think of parents, and I’ve fallen vulnerable to this myself of like this belief like, “Okay, it’s our job as parents. We have to create all these opportunities for enrichment and for skill development and we want them to be able to be really good at these things so we need to do that. ” But if we think about it, making that thing play actually allows for the broad spectrum development of all those things. It does triple quadruple duty and I think we sometimes forget that and we get really stuck on like this enrichment class or this one toy that’s supposed to do this thing where it’s like, no, if we just create a culture of play in our family, much like we create a culture of being outside or eating nutritious food or taking care of one another, whatever, these values, it becomes habit. It becomes part of the fabric of family life.

Lizzie (07:23):

Yes. And it becomes part of the fabric of who our kids are. And I had a conversation with a therapist who works with college age kids and she had said to me, “All of these kids come from like these really high achieving areas and they were really brought up on club sports and enrichment and activities and tutors, but now they’re in college and they’re really struggling with basic things like decision making, feeling like every little thing could possibly be the end of the world and afraid to take risks. And they’re not sure what to do if someone doesn’t tell them how to start. And to me, I felt immediately like, wow, I don’t think that’s really a college problem. That’s a play problem.” I wonder so much about what play looked like for these kids when they were four or five, because play really is the thing that builds deeply.

(08:12):

Like you were saying, in the fabric of who they are, their executive functioning skills, their confidence, their ability to start when no one has told them what to do yet, right? Right. And they’re okay making a mistake because they already have that confidence to know that they can take a step back and start over.

(08:30):

And when we don’t make space for that in our kids’ lives, and they’re so used to being constantly told what to do and when to do it, it does get really tricky to figure it out on your own. And I don’t say this to scare parents and say, “You shouldn’t be in club sports or you should, of course you should. You should do whatever your kids love, but just remember in the back of your head that play is not an extra. Play is the most important work.

Dr. Sarah (08:56):

Yeah, it’s foundational. The metaphor that I keep picturing in my mind is like if we wanted to give a kid, like help a kid build strength, we wouldn’t start with like the machines at the gym and like lifting weights. We would like think about like core strength. Play is like core strength and then you can build these like extremity skills outside of it. But like if you, if you do this, like if you create the space for this very fundamental play all the time, it’s just like, I don’t know, it just feels like foundational and then you can build upon that so much more easily.

Lizzie (09:36):

And they practice and they practice and they practice and they get better at it because I can already hear people in their head being like, “Well, that sounds great, but my kid’s not a kid who plays.” Some kids … And you know what? It’s true. Some kids play is easier for them. It’s true, but all kids can play and we need to step back and sort of provide that opportunity. And even like you were saying, if you wanted your kid to get strong, you wouldn’t start with a huge weight machine at the gym. You would start really small. The same way when our kids are learning to read, we don’t hand them a Harry Potter book. We read to them, right? We give them little tiny opportunities to see reading in their world and it’s the same thing with play. And I love to tell parents that just are like, “Well, it’s too late for me and I don’t know where to start.” So really, it starts with us and it starts with this most simple act of just observing your kid.

(10:30):

Take five minutes, even when you’re in the car driving to preschool or to after school and just say like, “What are they looking at outside the window? What are they talking about? Like what is really lighting them up?” And it’s okay if that thing is a show. It’s okay if that thing is a character, right? Because we want to use what they already feel good and excited about and plug that into opportunity for play.

Dr. Sarah (10:56):

Yeah. And I would imagine just like you can hear the parent listening to this being like, “Well, my kid just doesn’t like to play and where we can start with that family because we can still start somewhere.” I also hear a parent listening and be like, “Well, my kid’s too old.” That window has passed. I’ve got an eight year old or a 10 year old or a 15 year old, and so this is too late for us. And I think, and I bet you can bust that myth too.

Lizzie (11:26):

Yeah. I mean, you can always start where you are. And I always want to remind people that it’s our kids’ jobs to push back. I want my kids to push back, right? And so if someone asks you to do something that you are not used to doing, again, like I’ll go back to the book example, like if you’re not a very confident reader and someone hands you a massive book, of course you’re going to push back, you’re going to avoid it, you’re not even going to be able to dive into it if you wanted to, right? And so even if our kid is 10, we still want to approach it from where they are in their play confidence, right? So say you have a 10 year old and they … I’ll give you an example from the book, which is that I had a very good friend whose child was very into hockey.

(12:10):

He loved hockey. He wants to watch hockey all the time. He loves sports. He loves facts and statistics. And she was like, “This kid needs downtime. I don’t know what to do, but he’s not a kid who would like play independently.” He’s so social and all those things. And I was like, “Okay, well let’s start with what we know. We know he loves hockey. How can we transfer hockey, all of the things he knows about hockey into play.” And so we just started with pulling out hockey, his little hockey figurines that someone had given him for his birthday years ago. And we just put that on the table with markers and paper and sat down with some snack and she didn’t say, “It’s time for you to play with your hockey guys or for 30 minutes you’re going to play, you’re going to do this.

(12:52):

” No, she just put it out in a location where the family is and what do you know? Suddenly these hockey guys are here and he starts drawing out a hockey rink and suddenly he’s drawing hockey plays, right? And so now mom, dad or caregiver can say like, “Oh wow, you really know so much about hockey plays. I knew you knew how to watch it, but now you know how to draw it. ” And we’re going to start to see them as the expert in their own play using what they know and you’re going to give them repeated opportunity to do it over and over again. So if that was the thing that drew him in, don’t reinvent the wheel, do it again the next day and the next day. It sounds counterintuitive. Parents often will be like, “Oh, so should I buy a hockey game and a hockey…” And I’m like, “Nope, use what’s working and let them master what they already know.

Dr. Sarah (13:42):

Yeah. Okay. There’s two things you said in there that are so critically important. One is that we often, we’ve been indoctrinated to think that if something works once, we have to like now re-up it and up it and up. It’s like, no, just kids, that’s a grownup way of thinking, that’s a how do I make it better? How do I make it better, better, better versus a kid way of thinking is, I want to revisit, I want to revisit, I want to revisit. Kitchen is incredibly attractive to kids. So that’s one thing I thought was super important. And the other thing is I hear this all the time where parents want to have their kids start to play more independently and so they think, okay, we’re going to have independent playtime and it’s going to be right after nap or instead of nap or if I have an older kid and I’m trying to introduce this, it’s going to be from like four to 4:30 every single day and we’re going to put this frame around it.

(14:40):

And I think that that’s such a good idea and theory, but what it does to a kid who isn’t used to playing is it saying here is, and we might think 20 minutes feels like a tiny blip of time, but for a kid who’s like, “I don’t know what to do for 20 minutes,” you’re saying here is an enormous, enormous sandbox with nothing in it, now play. It’s like what we really want to do is say like, so it’s top down instead of bottom up and like what you’re describing is like, no, no, don’t give them a giant space to fill. Say, forget about the space entirely, give them one thing to do like a target.

Lizzie (15:25):

Yup.

Dr. Sarah (15:26):

Instead of saying like it’s playtime, now you’re going to play, you’re just saying like, you’re just like leaving something to be found.

Lizzie (15:33):

And I’m going to peel that back even another layer is like, if our goal, right, if say a parent’s goal is for their kid to have that quiet playtime from 4:00 to 4:30 every day, then I want you to start so basic by plugging in little opportunities to practice playing nearby to where the adult is all day long, right? Because before we’re going to ask our kids to go away on their own and do something that’s hard for them alone in a room, we need to help them build those skills first, right? And so often parents miss that step and they’re like, “Well, my kid just can’t do it. They just can’t.” And I’m always like, and it’s true, they can’t yet. They can’t do it yet because they need those foundational skills. And actually building those foundational skills and will make your life so much easier as a parent. And in the book, we talk about setting up PlayPockets around your home. And basically what that means is just instead of putting all your toys away in the playroom, think about it, observe when they are playing successfully, where are they? What are they playing with?

Dr. Sarah (16:42):

Whatever you’re doing.

Lizzie (16:43):

Yeah, exactly. Because kids want to be where we are. And so what we want to do is we want to learn how to basically parallel play. We want to play next to them. We want to do our work while they do theirs and we can, yes, sure, we can converse back and forth. And I can already, again, hear parents going, “No, but my kid the whole time is going to be like, Mommy, play with me, mommy play with me. ” And that’s so super normal, right? That’s what kids are supposed to do. They’re supposed to seek our attention and then it’s our job to notice what they’re playing with, to observe and step back. And we want to change our role of how we play with our kids. There’s so much discourse on social, on TikTok, on all these things. You should always play with your kids. You should never play with your kids. I know. And the truth of the matter is, you should do whatever you want with your kids because they’re your kids and that’s the best part of parenting is that you get to decide, but you can be intentional about your own role in their play.

Dr. Sarah (17:40):

Yes. Can you talk more about that? Because I think that people, again, we’re looking at what we want the end result to be and then we’re starting there and we’re not always so good at deconstructing it and starting at the beginning. And I think that’s exactly what you’re describing is like, so how do we start at the beginning? I want my kid to be able to play independently and it starts with them playing with me, but it starts with them what they want is my attention and my direction because that’s what they’re used to.

Lizzie (18:10):

And they should want that, right? That’s really healthy.

Dr. Sarah (18:14):

It feels good. It’s connection, it’s bonding and there’s time for that. And if that’s where you’re starting and you want to get to there’s 30 minutes of dedicated independent playtime every day and my kid is like looking forward to it.

Lizzie (18:31):

Yes. I mean, our society, our culture tells us that a quote unquote good mom is interacting with her child all the time. So I want you to even just picture like an infant and a parent, right? And they’re playing on the floor and it’s great. But I think what parents are conditioned to do is to take the rattle and shake it in their baby’s face and say, look, look, this is how you do it. You shake the rattle. Do you hear the noise? Whereas I want to encourage … And if you’re doing that, that’s great. That’s fine sometimes. Not trying to make anyone feel bad. But if your goal is that eventually you want to teach them how to play independently, we want them to be in charge of their own play. We want them to be confident in their own play. And so one thing we can do is see them on the mat, notice what they’re noticing, right?

(19:22):

Oh, you see the trees outside, the wind is blowing, the tree breeze is going. Oh, you’re reaching for the rattle. Do you want me to bring it closer? Are they going to answer you? No, they’re a baby. But what happens is you get into the habit of seeking their observation first. Let’s fast forward this to like a four year old who now is like, “No mommy, play with me. Play with me. You be the duck.” I think a parent who is going to entertain and get stuck in that loop of entertaining all the day long is going to become the duck and quack and be really funny and take over the game. A parent who wants their child to, you know, wants to build those skills on their own can say, “Oh, you want me to be the duck? What does the duck do? What should the duck do in the game? Where should the duck go? You want to just keep putting it back on them because that tells them your ideas matter. You are in charge of your own play. I’m here, I’m interested, but I’m just like a supporting cast member. I am not the star of the show.

Dr. Sarah (20:22):

No.

Lizzie (20:22):

And I like to help parents think about that. Just think of yourself as a mirror. Whatever they say, you say it back. And so if you see their building is about to fall, I know we’re parents and we want to be like, “Don’t build it like that. Do it this way. This is stronger.” We want to have a teaching moment, but when you realize step back and think about it, what are the real teaching moments? Real teaching moments are when kids learn things on their own, right? And so we can let that fall and be there for them when they’re upset. And we can, again, mirror how they’re feeling about it falling because then they are building frustration tolerance and all of those things. And we can say to them like, “You get to be in charge of your own play. Are you going to choose to clean it up or are you going to choose to build it again? Or are you going to say like, Oh, I really need to cry and have a tan troop because this really stinks.” I know. But you’re not going to swoop in and say, “Don’t build it this way. Let’s build it this way.” We want them to learn on their own.

Dr. Sarah (21:20):

Yeah. I mean, and this is such a metaphor or symbolic for the bigger things, right? Because if we stop the tower from falling or we swoop in to correct how they’re placing the blocks to prevent the tower from falling in the first place, what we’re also kind of doing is we’re rescuing them from any adverse thing. And the best way to learn how to deal with adversity is to practice it and play. Play is the safest place for stuff to go wrong and for us…

Lizzie (21:58):

That reminds me too of, I think for parents who are feeling like, “Oh my God, I get it. I know play is so important, but also I work and I have these really busy schedules.” I want to sort of also step back and say anytime you can add in that play, it really gives children the opportunity to have control in their world where they normally don’t, right? I mean, think about your kindergartner who is now in a big new school and there’s so many expectations on them and the teacher tells them when to eat, when to raise their hand, when to go to the bathroom and how to write and where. They’re losing so much autonomy. And we know that developmentally kids are craving autonomy and when they don’t get it, their behavior becomes really tricky because they are driven to seek that autonomy, right?

(22:54):

But when you give them the time and space to play, that’s when they create a world that they can be in charge of. And so when you’re feeling like, “Gosh, I know play is important, but they need to get on this soccer team and we need to be at this birthday party.” I want you to also remember that again, that foundational piece at the basis of all of it is they need some control back in their own world and play is the place that gives that to them.

Dr. Sarah (23:18):

Yeah. And it’s like play is, oh my God, play so many things, but like I am literally a play therapist. I do therapy with kids and we play all the time. That’s what we do and it’s like, that’s the therapy, right? So if that’s what I’m doing with kids, think about how valuable it is when they’re doing it at home and in their spaces, right? When I use play as a way for a kid to process something really challenging that happened to them or something they’re really afraid of, right? I was working with a little girl who has a lot of medical, complex medical issues and has had to have a tremendous amount of medical interventions in her life and very understandably, very scared of going to the doctor. And we were in my office with mom and dad. She’s four, she’s a little kid and she pulls out a doctor’s kit and dolls and she’s doing all these things to these dolls and walking us through kind of her trips to the doctor. We weren’t talking about her trips to the doctor. We were talking about the dolls and the dolls had to go to the doctor and they … That’s how they make sense of stuff. That’s how they work it through.

(24:46):

Hey, I want to take a quick pause here because if what we’re talking about today is resonating with you, I’ve got a free resource I think that you will love. I created a guide filled with simple, connection-based games designed to help kids strengthen their emotion regulation skills all through play. And the best part is these games are broken down by age. So whether you have a tiny human or a big kid, you’ll find strategies that are just right for your child’s developmental stage. These activities aren’t just fun, though they definitely are. They’re grounded in neuroscience and designed to support your child’s developing brain and nervous system. They’ll help your child learn strategies to calm their body, name their feelings, and build resilience over time. You can grab the link to download the guide right in the episode description, or head to drsarahbren.com/games to get it sent straight to your inbox. Okay, now let’s get back to the episode.

Lizzie (25:44):

Parents say like, “Gosh, my kid just started preschool. I have no idea what they do all day.” And every time I ask them a question, they just say, “I don’t know, ” or nothing. And what I say to those parents is observe their play, put a little dollhouse out, put a couple of figures and watch how they play. They will play about school and you will learn so much about how they are interpreting their world at school because now you’ve given them this container to put all their ideas and questions and confusion into, right? And so they can play about that. And you as a parent, oftentimes people will say to me like, “Lizzie, I followed everything you said and it’s amazing. Now my kids play independently and I actually feel like a really bad mom because now I am sitting there doing my own thing and my kids are playing and I feel like I’m supposed to be playing with them.” And I mean, I get that, but also, I think the piece that’s missing there is, and in a book we call it Closing the Loop, but that’s really coming back after a great independent play session and really saying, “Hey, I heard those baby dolls crying up in your room and I was wondering like, wow, I wonder what’s happening.

(26:54):

It sounds like someone’s really taking care of them. That sounded like really important game.” And so then they can choose. Do they want to share with you about their game? Usually they do because you are the person that’s saying like, “Wow, your play is so important. I didn’t even want to interrupt it, but I heard that and I knew you were doing important things.” And it’s true, it’s authentic. You’re not compliment … That’s real. They are doing really important work and now you are recognizing them for that important work and not only is it important because they’re learning play skills and executive functioning and being creative and you’re having time back for yourself, but also because they’re learning to recognize themselves as someone who can come up with an idea, make a whole game out of it, change their mind, like come back to it later if they want or not. It gives them back that piece of autonomy and now my grownup even sees how important that is. Well, I’m going to do that all the time now, right? Yeah. And it brings you closer and closer with your kid because you understand what’s important to them.

Dr. Sarah (27:56):

But it also, it does something else that I think is maybe equally important. And if your kid doesn’t want to do this, it’s not like, “Oh, you didn’t close the loop.” But when you talk about closing the loop, and if your kid does want to talk with you about it, what you’re also doing is you’re helping them integrate because when a kid has an idea and is constructing that idea through play, and then the play ends, they’ll naturally do this on their own too. If you watch a little kid playing, you might notice, you see this a lot with really little kids, but after they’ve finished an idea, after the kind of arc of the construction has been completed for them, they’ll put their head down on the ground. There’s like a physiological release, a rest, a pause that their body just wants to take. It’s like the end of the cycle for them.

(28:52):

And when we are able to, in that moment, help kind of, I call it like rest and reflect, like they naturally will rest and reflect, they’ll definitely want to rest. But if we also can facilitate that reflect part of like, how was that game? How did that go? How did that feel? What did you like about that game? What went well, what didn’t go well? Ask one question, not five. I’m just giving an example. But if they want to talk about it, then what you’re doing is helping them integrate just not even intellectually, but physiologically, integrate, organize the experience of I had an idea, I did something and now I finished. And that actually helps organize the nervous system.

Lizzie (29:39):

Yes, yes. And something I love to a tip I love to offer around this is for parents, especially if they have kids who don’t want to be … They don’t want to talk about it or they don’t want to talk, it feels tricky for them, is to say like, “Can I take a picture of your work?” And so just take a picture with your phone and then lay You’re at dinner saying to your partner or whatever in front of them, “Hey, look at this thing that Sam was working on earlier. This is so interesting.” And then Sam can choose whether Sam wants to say, “Yeah, and I was doing this and then this happened.” Or they can just sit and bask in the admiration of their work. But either way you’re again saying, “I notice you, your work is important, your interests are important.” And this doesn’t have to be a huge black building or something major they accomplished.

(30:32):

It can literally be the way they lined up their cars on their bedroom floor. It doesn’t have to be a big, huge accomplishment. It’s just the small things. And I just want to touch back on that also. The simplest, I was working with a client the other day and she said, “My girls have been fighting so much after school and I took a tip that she took a tip that I’d given her, which was to just think about these are kids who love magnetic tiles.” And I was like, “You know what? Don’t say anything. Just take a couple of magnetic tiles and two metal trays and just put them on your kitchen counter where you’re going to be making dinner. Don’t say anything. Put out a little snack. You know their blood sugar is low or whatever.” And she was like, “I did that over and over for five days in a row.” And she was like, “And my kids just started coming and sitting down at the counter and actually eating the snack because the toys were grounding them in their space so they actually could sit there and focus on eating the snack, which helped immensely.

(31:31):

But then they had something to do with their hands. And then they could also recreate what they needed to create, not a craft project that mom said, these are the instruction, these are the rules. This is how you’re going to do it. ” Because they’ve had that all day at school. They don’t need that when they get home. And so by the time it was time for dinner, like mom had made dinner without the girls bickering and fighting and whining at her. And they’re able to sit down as a family now because everyone’s sort of regulated in their own way because they could come at it, they could come at those tiles at the table as an anchor, but they could take from it whatever they personally needed. And that’s going to be the same for a two year old or a six year old or these girls were 11.

Dr. Sarah (32:13):

Yeah. And I like that because again, the open endedness of it allows them to … It’s an invitation. I feel like this I’ve really taken from you. I’ve really appreciated this. God, it’s been like years that I’ve been watching your content about play, but you would cover your kitchen table and butcher paper and then just draw lines on it and leave markers out. But you would do, your kids are very different ages and you would kind of like have stations for each of them. And again, I’m very clear, this is not elaborate Pinterest stuff. This is like a piece of paper and a jar markers, but there would be like some lines to say like, this is where one person’s going to make their build and whatever. And maybe a little something that would speak to each of them so they kind of were invited to their spot.

Lizzie (33:12):

Yes. And that’s the thing too. That’s what I was saying to my client. If these had been girls who actually really love drawing, then I wouldn’t say put out magnetic tiles or wooden blocks, put out the thing they already know, love, and are good at. Because we want them to come to something feeling like the expert, not having to come to something waiting for someone to give them the directions or to learn how to use a new tool or to work on something that’s hard for them. That’s not the time and the place. It’s right before dinner, everyone’s had a long day. Let’s just do something that feels good. And even like a really simple way, I love to tell parents, everyone is giving their toddler or their preschooler a bath, right? And I think for a lot of us at that bathtime, it feels really special.

(34:02):

And we get those phone letters and numbers. And what happens? As parents, we start to think, “Oh, this is a great time for me to work on my kid’s alphabet because I’m supposed to be doing that. I’m a mom.” And so they’re in the bath relaxing and we’re saying like, “Oh, what’s this? What color is this one? Yay.” We’re quizzing them. We’re quizzing them. Instead, I really want to invite parents to step back and use bath time as a time to really observe like, what is my kid doing? Just be quiet and watch them. Are they splashing? Are they watching how the bubbles pop? Are they building something with those film letters? Are they starting to spell? Those are all clues and cues for you as a parent to be like, “Oh, okay, my kid does love letters. You know what? I’m going to put out those alphabet puzzles and maybe some crayons.” Or, “My kid is really noticing how the water is flowing.

(34:53):

I’m going to actually give them tomorrow in the bathtub a couple of funnels and a bucket and see what happens.” And instead of jumping in and saying, “Oh yes, the water is flowing this way because that’s how waves work or whatever we want to impart on them.” I think instead we want to say like, “Oh yeah, you are noticing that. Tell me more about what you notice.” We want to know what they know so we can see them as the expert in their own play, but bath time is really a time where you know you’re doing it almost every night. So it’s a great time to take three minutes and just watch them. Are they singing a song? Are they talking to you about a character? Use that as clues into how you can plug easy play in.

Dr. Sarah (35:33):

Yeah. And I think I’m saying this as the parent who definitely needs to hear it myself, not just the parent or not just the person saying, “Don’t do this thing.” But these are really, really important pocket micro moments that are best done with full presence and attention. And so leaving the phone out of the bathroom at playtime, it gives you 10X the benefit, I promise. Then I’d much rather you take five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes before you do bath time to check your email to do what you need to do, like get it done or even just scroll because you just need to like, “Okay, I need a little me time before I do that. ” But like do it, put the phone away and come into this very short period of time saying like, “I’m going to be here for this because you’ll get so much information if you’re paying attention.”

Lizzie (36:34):

And also your kid will feel … I like to explain it as almost like there being a hole in the bucket because oftentimes kids will say, “Play with me, play with me. ” And that parent is so burned out from playing with you. So we’re like, okay, and we’re like laying on the floor, like half moving the Barbie and half staring at our phone, right? And then there’s a hole in that bucket, right? Because everything you’re pouring into that play with them is coming right back out because kids, they know they don’t have your undivided attention, right? And we also know their developmental drive is to get your attention. And so if we can say to them like, “You know what? Right now I am putting my phone away and even if the dishwasher is done and even if the baby cries because she’s awake, until this timer goes off, I am going to play with you.

(37:20):

And when the timer goes off, you might be upset, like you might cry, you might be … ” Whatever it is, and that’s okay, but just to name that time for them of like, “I’m not looking at my phone, I am paying attention to you, whatever you are telling me. ” Then you’ve plugged the hole in the bucket and it can fill up.

Dr. Sarah (37:39):

Right. And it’s temporary. It’s more work for you. It is. And for your kid when you try to fill their bucket while also allowing there to be a hole in the bucket and so that 50% of your attention all the time nets way less than 100% of your attention in very small pockets of time.

Lizzie (38:05):

I would rather you be all in for five minutes than half in for an hour.

Dr. Sarah (38:11):

Totally. And I’m like, again, I will repeat this because I think it needs to be underlined and highlighted and starred, but I’m telling myself this because I do that all the time. I have my phone in my hand when I want to be present with my kids because it’s very, very sticky for me.

Lizzie (38:28):

Yep. Everyone, myself included, all of us. And again, these are all things that are just like little micro ways that you can plug into your child’s play and your relationship with them. These are not things you need to be doing 100% of the time by any means. These are things that you can just plug in, be intentional about, and guess what? If you didn’t do it for a month, okay, that’s okay. Pick one or two.

Dr. Sarah (38:54):

Even if you’ve been doing it for four years, it’s okay. You can start now.

Lizzie (38:57):

It’s okay. It’s literally not something that you’re like, “Oh my God, I haven’t done this since birth. I can’t do it. ” And I’m saying it like that because I was the parent when my kids were little that would have been like, “Oh my God, I messed this up. Now I’m doomed.” This is not that.

Dr. Sarah (39:15):

No, that’s the nice thing. It’s still at the end of the day, it’s still play. It’s light stuff. It’s easy to find ways to do it. And fortunately, it’s appealing to children.

Lizzie (39:29):

Also, it looks different for every kid. So let’s be really upfront with this. The way your kid plays is going to look completely different than the way my kid plays and both count, right? So independent play or productive play does not have to mean a child building quietly with wooden blocks. It can also be like a kid bouncing a ball against the garage, a kid singing or zoning out or reading in their room. It can be drawing. It can be anything that comes from within your child that feels good to them that they are doing on their own. Do not compare what you think play is supposed to look like.

Dr. Sarah (40:09):

Right. And even between kids in the same family, I think, like you were saying, observe your child to see what they’re interested in, but also observe your child to see how they physically engage with play. There are kids who want to play with little titty, cutty little things and they don’t move a muscle. They don’t get out of their seat. And you have kids who the best way to get them to play is for them to literally destroy the living room and play every single cushion in a giant pile and like body slam it. Both are play. One might be more stressful for a parent than another, but if you want your kids to play and that’s the way they play, sometimes we also have to kind of be able to tolerate that my kid might need to play in a way that stresses me out a bit and we have to figure out how do we get all of our needs met, but like be willing to kind of do that.

Lizzie (41:03):

Yes. And there’s a chapter in the book called Decoding Your Child’s Play and it kind of just helps you break down like, how do I even know what kind of play is best for my kid? And a lot of it is going to be trial and error, but you know your kid best. And so when you can have these few things that are like, does my kid like to sit and play, pretend with little teeny tiny figures? Awesome. Put those teeny tiny figures all over your house. Do you have a kid who loves to make huge movements with their arms and perform and act? Great. Get rid of three quarters of the toys in your playroom so that they have the space to move around and be large and in charge. So we really want to think about like, who is my kid and how can I support their play?

Dr. Sarah (41:49):

Yes. I think that’s so helpful. And what do you do if you are, like your inner child is like the teeny tiny, I’m super clean when I play and I put it back as soon as I’m done, but you have a child who’s going to just completely turn your house into a jungle gym. How do you reconcile that?

Lizzie (42:06):

Yeah. I mean, I think at the forefront of that, number one is really understanding like, why do I even want my kid to play? Is it like this hazy thing that it just feels like pressure from like the internet and like wherever people being like, “Play is so important. Play is so important.” Or is it like, actually like this is who my kid is. These are the important things about them and I want to like support this specific thing or I want to learn more about who they are. Because when you reframe it into like, we’re not playing just for play’s sake, right? It’s like a really important way to understand your child’s development, understand their interests, right? And when you start to think about it that way, it can be really helpful to understand that like, yes, sometimes there’s a mess. And sometimes I’m going to say like, “You know what? I can’t today. I cannot deal with the mess and you can watch TV, you can watch a show because that’s intentional, right? You’re making an intentional choice and that’s allowed.”

Dr. Sarah (43:02):

Yeah. And I think that’s the other part that I really like about your approach in general is that it’s not, yes, we want to give our kids an opportunity to engage in play because it’s the really, really foundational for their development across all skillsets. But also, we are a family system. It’s not about the spotlight on the child at the exclusion of the rest of the family. It’s about how does play fit into the family system because it’s good for everyone and it’s also a way of connection, but if it’s feeling like a disconnection, then we need to kind of evaluate that role. Reexamine.

Lizzie (43:47):

And they’re actually in the book, there’s an entire chapter on understanding the culture of your family. And so it really helps you sort of break down like, are we a family that actually loves to travel and team sports and that’s how we connect and all of those things and great. Then like you want to design your world around that, right? Or like are we a family that says like, “We love to travel and we love to do all of these things, but also like we’re scheduling all of these other things so we never travel.” Or like are we a family who, you know, whatever it is, right? But really breaking it down and understanding how play fits into that world because it’s not the other way around. This is for the whole family. This is not just about your kid. And again, like also I just want to hammer this home.

(44:35):

You can have a child who enjoys screens and a child who loves to play. It’s really just about the intentionality behind it and setting some rules and boundaries, seeing if they’re working and if they’re not, it’s okay to go back and change your mind. It’s okay to revisit it. There are no hard and fast rules.

Dr. Sarah (44:52):

Yeah. No, my kids love screens. So do I.

(44:56):

Me too, I do. But also my kids play and I’m so grateful. It’s funny because this morning, right now Lego is everything in my family, in my home. And they have a bunch of Legos, right now we’re in a phase where like if they wake up in the morning and they get dressed and they get their teeth brushed, there’s time to play before we go out the door, which was great for me because now they’re actually getting up and I’m like drinking a cup of coffee in the morning, packing the lunches while they’re playing, fighting a little bit for sure.

Lizzie (45:34):

That’s part of play.

Dr. Sarah (45:36):

But playing. And I was thinking to myself, wow, I’m really grateful right now. Yeah, I was grateful that I had a minute to have time to myself, but like really what I was grateful was that my kids like play and wait, and again, if their kids don’t play Legos this way, that’s totally fine. But my kids build the Legos and then they play with the Legos, like they make up worlds and stories and engage with them. And I was like, I had this moment of just really being very happy that they have a space in their day where they can actually process stuff in that exchange that their characters are having because they’re working stuff out.

Lizzie (46:33):

Yep.

Dr. Sarah (46:33):

But, if they don’t have that space, it might not come out and it seems like come out in other places. And I had this thought like, wow, the more our kids have space to think through and in their case play through stuff they’re holding onto or making sense of or that’s feeling sticky for them in their inner world, the more release they get, right? Whereas if there is a lot of like turning off the thoughts or there isn’t space for the thoughts, like there’s just either too much going on so there isn’t time to slow down and think about it or there’s a habit of, “Well, this doesn’t feel good, so I’m going to shut it off and just distract myself with something else or something that feels a little easier.”

Lizzie (47:24):

Yes.

Dr. Sarah (47:26):

That muscle doesn’t get exercised either, the muscle of processing. And I was just like, “Whoa, Lego is a gift that I did.”

Lizzie (47:39):

And even think about like how amazing it is that … So now like you as the parent have created this time and this routine, right, that this is what they do because yes, some kids might naturally do that, but for most kids, there’s a grownup involved there who’s saying like, “This is important, this is how we’re going to set up the routine. There’s going to be pushback in the beginning, but I, as the mom, know how important this is so I’m going to push through it. ” So now they’re in this routine, right? And now not only have they have this time and physical space to process everything in their brain, but it’s with their own creation. Imagine what that does to them for their confidence and are they going to turn around and be like, “Mom, thanks. They feel so good. I’ve really worked through my stuff and feel real confident today. Now I have to go to school.” Of course not. But you know as a mom, getting them in that practice is everything. I mean, grownups, we all across the world are dealing with burnout at levels that are out of hand, right? And kids know the answer is play. And so when you can build that into their routine and protect it, you are protecting them from that burnout. And that for me is such a gift to give my kids.

Dr. Sarah (48:51):

Yeah, it is. And I will be very clear, it doesn’t always look like it did this morning and our life doesn’t always look like it does on these mornings. This is a good morning, but I have plenty that aren’t. And I also have worked really intentionally and it’s to build in the play. I mean, since they were born, it’s always been like one of the biggest priorities I’ve had for them. So it’s been years in the making that we’re looking at this at six and eight years old right now, but…

Lizzie (49:21):

That’s right.

Dr. Sarah (49:22):

It doesn’t mean that if you haven’t started yet, you can’t get there.

Lizzie (49:26):

And it does mean like you can start … The way that starts though is in the very little moments of having a few of your toddlers favorite toys on the floor in your kitchen. And yes, you are right there, right? Of course you are watching them, but they are also in charge of what they’re doing, which is like to a two year old, everything, right? And that builds their confidence and that is the beginning stages of what you’re talking about now at six and eight.

Dr. Sarah (49:56):

Yeah. Yeah. And like, oh man, I could ask you a million questions, but like your kids are older and I’m curious, what does it look for them now? I imagine play is still very much a part of their makeup because they’ve been exercising this muscle for so long, but I also imagine it doesn’t look the same.

Lizzie (50:14):

Not at all. But I’ll tell you a real quick story, which is that my oldest who is now a freshman in college and he is a runner, he runs at the D1 Big 10 level and this is a kid who, when he was in second grade, we had done kiddie soccer, we had done peewee basketball, we’d done all the things and he was a kid who he was fine with it and he was okay, but like he was standing on the soccer field like staring up at airplanes. He was a kid who, he’d go to basketball practice, but like he wasn’t excited about it in the way that like he was excited to come home and build airplanes with his Legos. He was excited to come home and get binoculars and like watch the flight patterns. He was excited to come home and work with tools or tinker in the garage, right?

(51:01):

And so by second grade, we said to him like, “Nate, Nate, if you don’t like these things, you don’t have to do them.” And he finished out whatever season we were in and we never signed him up again. And what ended up happening is like now he’s 18, he’s a licensed private pilot. He had such a passion for flying that he poured everything into that, right? He worked at the bike shop starting when he was 14 years old because he spent so many hours taking apart bikes and putting them back together and teaching his sisters to ride because he had that time and his own passion. And when he was in high school, we moved states and we were like, “Listen, just join the cross country team, you’ll meet people. They’ll be nice to you. ” And he was like, “Eh, all right, whatever.” And he just found a complete and utter passion.

(51:51):

But I will tell you in part, I really think his success as a runner is attributed to all of those hours that he spent doing his own thing, managing his own time, managing his own interests, figuring out what was important to him and seeking that out because then he found running and he loved it and he was able to sort of really reverse engineer his training plans and like really think about like what this could look like for him in a way that wasn’t about us. It was about him. We weren’t the ones who were like, “You have to win and do all these things.” We weren’t that invested in it. We were just invested in him.

Dr. Sarah (52:28):

Right. And I think that’s the special sauce here. I’m going to take one thing away from this conversation or if you’re listening, what I really want you to hear in this is like, if we, we might have an outcome in mind as a parent, we all do. It’s okay. Like this dream that our kids- Of course. … or whatever or whatever, whatever, right? But if we want them to be able to have the potential to do that thing, whatever it is in the future, starting early and drilling it and drilling it and drilling it and drilling it, for some kids that might work, but really if we think about play as this broad spectrum foundational core muscle development that builds the raw material upon which all of these other bigger, higher level, sophisticated, serious skills might emerge later, and we also support this communication early on in our relationship with our kids that like, I am interested in your interests, I’m interested in your ideas, I’m interested in what you do with your time and what ideas you follow and how you construct.

(53:45):

It’s the constructing that is the magic and the building blocks, right? It’s like this is the DNA. And then if we give them space and support that value and that culture in our family early on, then it’s like stem cells, you know what I mean? Yes. We turn it into whatever they want later. We don’t have to get stuck and pick it now when they’re little.

Lizzie (54:09):

Not even close, not even close. And at the end of the day, I think all of parenting comes back to our relationship with our kids and going in, all in on your child’s play says to them, “I see you as the person you are. You are evolving, you are changing, you are making mistakes, you have interests that are different than mine and the best way to support those things is to let them play.”

Dr. Sarah (54:33):

Yeah, it is. It is. It’s such a respectful … It’s like the highest level of respect, your ideas are so interesting to me, let’s see what happens.

Lizzie (54:47):

And I think all parents can agree with that, right? Everyone loves their kids and is interested in their kids, right? And so if you can kind of back that up a little and say like, “How can I use play to learn more about my child and our relationship?” You’re going to make time for it. Of course you are.

Dr. Sarah (55:05):

Yes, I love it. Thank you. If people want to follow your work, you have an incredible Substack, you have great, like this book, I’m so excited this book exists. How can people get connected with you?

Lizzie (55:18):

Yeah. I mean, you can find me mostly on Instagram. I know a lot of parents are off, which is yay. There’s just so much noise. But yeah, you can find me on Substack, you can find me at my website, workspaceforchildren.com and of course my book, But I’m Bored.

Dr. Sarah (55:35):

Yay.

Lizzie (55:35):

Comes out in January.

Dr. Sarah (55:37):

I’m so happy. I’m so happy for you.

Lizzie (55:39):

Thank you.

Dr. Sarah (55:40):

Thank you for coming on the show.

Lizzie (55:41):

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sarah (55:42):

If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, I want to hear from you. Share your thoughts and your feedback with me by scrolling down to the ratings and review section on your Apple Podcasts app or whatever app you’re listening on and let me know what you think of this episode or the show in general. Your support means the absolute world to me and just a simple tap of five stars can make a real impact in how this show gets reached by parents everywhere. So thank you so much for listening and don’t be a stranger.