377. Q&A: What should I do when my child lies?

Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

Hello. Welcome back to Beyond the session segment of the securely attached podcast where we answer listener questions. I’ve got Dr. Emily Upshur, Dr. Rebecca Hershberg, two of my dearest friends. Thank you for coming. How are you guys?

Dr. Emily (00:58):

Good.

Dr. Rebecca (00:58):

Good. Thanks. Always such a pleasure.

Dr. Sarah (01:03):

I have a question for you. Are we ready?

Dr. Emily (01:07):

Ready.

Dr. Sarah (01:08):

Feeling good. Okay.

Dr. Rebecca (01:09):

Feeling ready.

Dr. Sarah (01:11):

So this listener writes in, my seven-year-old has started lying a lot and I’m not sure how seriously to take it. He’ll lie about little things like saying he brushed his teeth when he didn’t or that he didn’t hit his sister when I literally just saw it happen. Sometimes it feels like the lie comes out of his mouth before he’s even thought about it. Is this kind of lying normal for his age or is it a red flag and what’s the best way to handle it? So he learns? To be honest, that’s a very relatable question, I feel like.

Dr. Rebecca (01:41):

Relatable and also common. I mean, I feel like I hear this all the time and it’s so funny. I often hear it at the end. We’ll be talking about something else and then parents are like, wait, one more thing. By the way, one thing that keeps happening. Yeah, I mean I can jump in.

Dr. Sarah (01:58):

Do. I want to hear what you thoughts are on this?

Dr. Rebecca (02:01):

I think this is a giant red flag. Just kidding. I was like, what?

Dr. Sarah (02:08):

The most non alarmist of the three of us. It’s like buckle up.

Dr. Rebecca (02:12):

Sorry. I’m feeling punchy. Yeah, no, this to me is incredibly typical behavior, especially around this age, especially the examples that this parent gives. I think, and I don’t even honestly, when parents call it lying to me, I say, I don’t even think of it as lying, really. It’s sort of trying to get out of something they don’t want to do or trying not to disappoint you. It’s often to preserve the relationship. I have this vivid memory of my son, gosh, he must’ve been, I don’t know, five, and he was holding my laptop computer and a pencil.

Dr. Emily (02:50):

You’ve told this one before.

Dr. Rebecca (02:51):

I’m sure I have my laptop and there’s pencil marks all over the laptop, and I’m like, Zeke, what did you do? He’s like, nothing. And I’m like, you clearly drew all over the laptop. He’s holding the pencil. And he’s like, no, I didn’t. And he looks like baffled, mystified, what could have possibly happened here? And in the moment, and this is not always the case, but I was able to sort of realize what was happening, which is that he had done this thing because his impulse has got the best of him. We did this, and he’s my kid who’s going to do that over and over again? What would happen if I took this rock? And I threw it at the, then he realized from the look on my face that I was really upset. And so he just sort of took the closest route out of there. If I say I don’t do it because he knew that I was angry. And that’s hard when you’re a kid, even if I often have parents say to me, but it’s not like I get so angry at my kids. Why would they be scared of me?

(03:55):

It’s not like I’m going to beat them. But I think even just the slightest bit of disapproval or disappointment, our kids pick up on ’em. They can be really sensitive to. And if they have a choice, which at that age they think they do, of just avoiding it by pretending the whole thing didn’t happen, why wouldn’t they take that path? And I remember I said to him, I know you wish you didn’t do it. I know you wish. Now that you see that I’m really upset. I know you wish you didn’t do it. We both know you did it. I forget, watch the laptop or whatever. But I think that’s how I off the top of my head, would recommend parents handle it often is not as a district attorney trying to get a confession that I saw it happen. Now, of course you did it.

(04:42):

Say it, say it. It’s much more like, we both know this happened. I’m not going to argue with you about it, and what’s our next step? It might be, and I know you feel bad about it, I know you wish it didn’t happen, or we both know you haven’t brushed your teeth, so let’s make a plan. I’m going to turn my back and I bet by the time I count to 10 you’ll be in the bathroom brushing or moving away from the idea of the lying as the center of the conversation. Because I think at these ages and in these contexts, it’s really not.

Dr. Emily (05:15):

Yeah, I love that. I love that you said the wish because I actually, that’s what I call it in treatment. I say, oh, well it’s the wish, right? So just hear their lie as, I wish I didn’t color on your laptop. I wish I didn’t have to brush my teeth. I wish I didn’t hit my sister. Right.

Dr. Sarah (05:34):

I wish you didn’t catch me. Hit my sister.

Dr. Emily (05:36):

Exactly. I actually love this. I call it a little bit tongue in cheek, the lean in because I think if you really try to challenge kids in this, you’re sort of at a standoff, which is never going to be productive or helpful. So if my son’s like, oh, I hit my sister, I’d be like, oh yeah, I think you probably did hit your sister, but lean on into that. But maybe you can pour her a glass of milk and give her an olive branch and see if that makes it a little bit better, as opposed to you have to apologize and this is finger wagging. I think that that really sort of helps ease that. And remember lying is a learning growth mindset experience. So we want them to make these quote mistakes so they can learn. It’s really in the effort of teaching them.

Dr. Sarah (06:32):

Right. Well, if you think about it, what both of you’re saying is I’m looking at lying as the byproduct of an attempt to solve a problem at pretty clunky, right? Badly. But if you want to trace it back the lie, if we can accurately say the lies is the byproduct, let’s go back a step further or two steps further. I hit my sister and got caught and now I feel either ashamed or scared, scared I’m going to get in trouble or ashamed, embarrassed, guilty because I actually feel bad that I did it. And then in response to that emotional sensation of either shame or fear, I try to problem solve by telling a lie. Because if I’m feeling ashamed and I tell a lie, I’m trying to live the wish that absolves me of the shame. It distances me from the shameful feeling. I feel shame that I hit my sister.

(07:40):

And if I say I didn’t hit my sister, I can kind of exit that shame and live in that fantasy if I’m scared that I’m going to get in trouble. And the lying is an attempt to manage the fear, control the scenario, control the outcome, control the response of the parent. If I tell you I didn’t, maybe you won’t get mad at me. I’m still problem solving. So at the end of the day, I think we can get distracted by the lie, which is just another behavior, which is just another kind of red herring. And if we can go to like, oh, you’re solving this problem not so well, let’s figure out a different way to solve this problem. To your point, Emily, you’re helping your kids say repair with the sister. So it’s a different way to solve the problem of feeling ashamed or afraid that they’re going to get in trouble or whatever it is.

Dr. Rebecca (08:34):

Yeah. I just sent you guys an article from ADDitude Magazine, which I love, which we can maybe link to in the show notes. But it was really interesting and I sent it to a lot of clients. It’s from this past summer, but the title is Fight Flight Freeze or Fib. And it basically talks about in kids with ADHD, but not just kids with ADHD, also just generally kids who are not fully developed with regard to executive functioning, which is by the way, all kids can, we think of F as a fibbing, excuse me, fibbing lying as something you do the same way when you respond to threat that it’s the same way you do fight flight or freeze lying is this way of escaping threat, right? It’s a self-preservation strategy, it’s a protective strategy, and there’s actually neuroscience research to potentially suggest that it can fall into that category. So I think again, if ever there was affirmation for this listener that this is common, this is okay, this is biological, this is evolutionary. And again, I think the biggest pitfall parents fall into, which gets to the end of her question is like, okay, but how do I teach them it’s wrong?

(09:50):

How do I teach them? It’s not a good strategy. It may be self-protective and all. And I think as we talk about a lot on beyond the sessions, it’s about sort of scaffolding over time. It’s not a one-off, not going to be through lecturing. It’s going to be about revisiting perhaps the moment at a later time. I know how tempting it is when you don’t want to brush your teeth to tell me that you’ve already brushed them. I totally get that, and I would do this midday when you’re not near any brushing teeth episode. I totally get that. And it’s important that we brush our teeth. And I also always frankly know when you have, so just FYI, let’s aim for honesty.

Dr. Sarah (10:38):

Yeah. I think other tools that live in that timeframe after or before the next time, not the during, but might be thanking them for ultimately telling you if they did and being like, even if you have a hard time telling me the truth at the beginning of the moment, when you eventually are able to tell me what really happened, I want you to know I really appreciate that honesty.

Dr. Rebecca (11:10):

And I say that in the moment now, my son just lied. I’m going to use the word lying. He is older and because he lied to get out, he had broken the neighbor’s window. He wanted to see what would happen if he did.

Dr. Sarah (11:22):

This is the same computer computer scribbler.

Dr. Rebecca (11:24):

Yeah, when I, same kid. Exactly. And he tried to tell everybody involved that it was a bird and it wasn’t surprise, surprise because birds don’t actually break windows when they fly into them anyway. He did not tell the truth, and we all knew what would happen. And so there was a reminder in the moment, not I let a few minutes go by, let his adrenaline go down, whatever. And then it was sort of just a reminder, I, it’s going to be a lot easier for you and for everybody if you remember that when you tell the truth about something that happened, we can all work together to problem solve it. And when you don’t, you end up feeling a lot worse and it works for the moment. I just reminded him about all those things and then sure enough, he did ultimately tell the truth. And then as you just said, Sarah, it was a lot of praise for, look, look, you did it. I know it’s so hard. It’s so hard to say when you did something that you just know was a really bad idea. Thank you for telling me. It means we can absolutely still run this family on a principle of trust, and now let’s think about what we can do now that this happened. That’s how you sort of teach the benefit of being honest versus dwelling in the, I can’t believe in the first 10 minutes this happened. You didn’t tell me the truth, which is just not going to get you anywhere in the long game.

Dr. Sarah (12:53):

And I think I get a lot of parents, to your point earlier, people are like, but how do I teach them this? And what if the lying is a sign that something is a bigger problem or we need to teach that lying isn’t okay.

Dr. Rebecca (13:07):

Right? What if they learn it’s okay?

Dr. Sarah (13:08):

Exactly right. And I think that is a fear. I am first just for the record, I am in 100% agreement with your approach. That’s the approach that I take. That’s the approach I take with my kids. It’s the approach I take. I have encouraged parents to take with their kids, and the pushback I often will get is they need to learn that lying isn’t okay, and what I frequently have to remind them is when they’re regulated, when they’re not fighting with a feeling of intense shame or fear of getting in trouble when they’re really integrated and just their best core self, do they not know that lying is not okay? Do they think that hitting is okay? Do they think it’s okay to break people’s windows? My guess is no. My guess is when they’re in their best self, they really understand for the most part how these rules work. And obviously the older they are, the more they’ll understand. Younger they are, it might be time to teach that, but generally speaking, most kids who do things outside of the realm of what is acceptable aren’t doing it on purpose as a result of not knowing it’s not okay, they’re doing it because they’ve lost control over their breaks. They’re not operating off of their reasonable mind that knows the rules. They’re usually doing something out of impulse or really intense curiosity that’s overriding some of their more rational thoughts or rage.

Dr. Rebecca (14:38):

No, but that’s not the, but you’re talking about the thing…

Dr. Sarah (14:41):

I’m talking about the thing that happens, that then a child lies about, right. This is like we’re still pulling back more.

Dr. Rebecca (14:49):

But even the lying I would say, I think is that they’re not operating from their reasonable brain. They’re operating, as we just said, from the self-preservation escape the threat. Right, exactly. I think that’s why they did the thing in the first place, I don’t think is the key point here. I think maybe they did the thing from a reasonable place and then just regretted it later. Who knows? But in the moment, the lying is not that they don’t know it’s wrong. I mean, I say that to parents all the time, do you really think they don’t know? If you went to go ask ’em right now, Hey, how do you feel about lying? Most kids are going to say, it’s bad, I shouldn’t do it. Most grownups are, and sometimes grownups lie. You really do something, you know.

Dr. Sarah (15:30):

And usually when grownups lie, it’s because we feel either intense shame and it’s so we are trying to get out of this state of deep incongruence with our values. If we do something that is not congruent with our sense of self and our values and we have to confront the feeling of shame that comes with that discordance, we often feel compelled to lie and we might inhibit that lie. We might not, but we will feel the urge for sure. Or if we feel deep fear that we are going to lose some type of connection, some type of safety respect.

Dr. Rebecca (16:12):

Absolutely. I mean, when I ding the car all I wanted, I mean that’s such an obvious example for me. It’s like when I accidentally hit something very, very minor that it’s, I know my husband.

Dr. Emily (16:26):

You tell him it wasn’t you, you’re like, it wasn’t me.

Dr. Sarah (16:29):

I don’t dunno how that happened,

Dr. Rebecca (16:33):

I mean I want to do now say, but I definitely, the urge is like, I don’t, I didn’t even notice that. I have no idea how that happened or Oh, I was parked in this really crowded lot. I imagine something because it’s just in the moment it’s like, Ooh, then I can escape this feeling of shame. I can escape the fact that he might be mad at me or disappointed in me. I can escape my own shame around having grown up in New York City and not be a great driver. All the things, it’s like it’s a human instinct and I think the fib thing is…

Dr. Sarah (17:07):

And you remember that when you are in your most regulated state, integrated state, right?

Dr. Rebecca (17:11):

I go back to him, I say honey…

Dr. Sarah (17:12):

Capital R Rebecca is saying, I know it’s not okay to lie. I spend a lot of my time in my professional life helping people understand it, whatever. It’s not like you are questioning your morality or your capacity for honesty and good values because you’re pretty good at that stuff.

Dr. Emily (17:34):

I won’t, okay. I was going to say, I’m going to take us totally left, and that lying isn’t always bad either. I don’t want my kid to be like, I don’t want to play with you because you smell right. I do think there’s a little bit of an art to reading the room, but that aside, I do think that it is about fear and some sort of lack of safety, whether big S or little s, right, and I think that the reason why people do it, and it’s particularly children when they get caught, I always say, well, that is kind of the punishment, right? Yeah. I don’t know that you need to do something more. Sitting with them in that terrible feeling of being caught in a lie is kind of the consequence right there. It is, and I don’t know that you need to punctuate that with anything else.

Dr. Sarah (18:25):

Well, I also think in that moment we have to pick our next step and their next step is going to be based off in some manner what is our bigger goal, what’s our higher order goal, and if we believe that the goal is to teach them that lying is bad in this moment because we don’t know they know it, then we might go one way, which is I have to really push now I have to really punish this and I have to really press on this more because I have to really make sure they get it. Doubting that or to the example you were giving earlier, Emily, like how do we problem solve this in a different way, and so you’ve now caught them in the lie. They’re feeling that kind of inescapable discomfort of having been caught lying. The fear and the shame is present. You suddenly, you checked the box now of them having an organic consequence, and now you can go in a different direction and say, let’s build some skills. Let’s help you bridge this gap. Let’s help you repair with your sister that you just hit, or let’s go brush those teeth, or whatever the fill in the blank thing is because now we’re working more on the bigger higher order goal, which is building skills, building problem solving skills, building executive functioning skills, building repair and social skills, whatever the thing is, not learning how to get curious. I’m trying to think of what’s the skill with the rock in the window in the lie that came with that one.

Dr. Rebecca (20:02):

I don’t want to think about it anymore, having just gotten the estimate for what the replacement will cost.

Dr. Sarah (20:08):

And we can also talk about that, but to your point earlier when I was conflating the action they were lying about and the lie itself, it gets muddy. Usually two things involved. Whenever a kid is lying, it’s the lie.

Dr. Rebecca (20:26):

Or the absence of what they’re lying about. Question the absence of the, it was the not having brushed teeth.

Dr. Sarah (20:33):

So the avoiding, avoiding an expected behavior, breaking a rule, doing just some type of behavior or the absence of an expected behavior, and then there’s the lie about it. I still think the problem solving is going to go, I would focus the problem solving on the precipitating thing that the kid then lied about, not how do you not lie, although you could also build that skill, which is more about what we were talking about, of if they do say the truth, to reinforce that, to model honesty. When you want to lie to name that urge, Ugh, I made this big mistake and now I really want to say I didn’t, I would feel a lot better.

Dr. Emily (21:16):

I actually think that’s a really important distinction. I find that my very impulsive child lies a lot about really insignificant things, but does not lie about important things. It’s a little bit of like, no, I didn’t hit my sister or I didn’t do anything. It’s my favorite. I didn’t do anything. I didn’t do it, but if he’s had a trouble with a friend or he’ll say to me, I called somebody something I’m not proud of and I need to tell you about it, which is to me sort of more important and I do a little bit of the wink, wink, nod, nod with a, I didn’t hit my sister. I’m like, okay, that’s a little bit of a predicament, but I don’t really sort of hold him to task on every single one of those things because it’s not helping him feel that I’m a safe person to hold the space for the shame of that situation.

Dr. Sarah (22:16):

The big things that it’s like if we don’t nitpick all the little lies, while still it sounds like not ignoring that it’s a lie.

Dr. Emily (22:27):

No, yeah.

Dr. Sarah (22:28):

We’re naming, it’s a lie. We’re just not going to bash him over the head about it and get into admit, admit. Then you get into that power struggle. We’re like, admit you’re lying. No, admit you’re lying. I know you’re lying.

Dr. Emily (22:42):

It’s harder and harder, right?

Dr. Sarah (22:43):

Don’t pick up that rope. That is one very hardcore, or I would say hard and fast tactic that I feel like is worth naming is that, that I’m going to get you to admit that you lied is just a very futile path to take. Instead, I always like to go up over and above and name the situation, not get in the nitty gritty, so to be like, that’s the you wish it wasn’t true. You’re not getting, you don’t need them to admit to you that they’re lying. You’re just going to name that it is and move on with yourself like, ah, I understand you wish that that hadn’t happened and now I’m moving on, but you are acknowledging that you do not believe that what they’re telling you is the truth, but again, not getting in the power struggles around that and not making all those little lies a litigation when they do something big, they might otherwise need to feel like they have to lie about. It’s like, I know that mom or whomever I am to them can be someone I can talk to about this stuff. They’re not going to get stuck on the nitty gritty.

Dr. Rebecca (24:06):

Right? Yeah, and I think it also, what you just said, Emily brings to light so beautifully the concern about how do I teach my kids? It’s not okay. It’s not like your kids are going up in a vacuum and then you check back 15 years later. It’s like you’re always aware of what’s happening, and the fact that your son comes to you for the big things is your quote proof or data that you’re teaching him and teaching him. Well, even if you can’t necessarily put how you’re doing it into words, something is working, and so sometimes I find that parents feel like unless they’re being really concrete and didactic, kids aren’t necessarily getting the values that they want them to get, and I just think we have all kinds of ways in real life to see whether that’s true or not.

Dr. Emily (25:01):

Totally. Back to, I think the listeners, and I think it was one of you said earlier where it doesn’t feel like we’ve done anything if we don’t address the lie or ask them to apologize and we’re not doing our job as a parent, I think if we sort of make it an understanding and that can be nonverbal, that can be a look, that can be that this is a lie and that it is not. I think there’s a way to address it without being hyper punitive or shameful or raising those sort of defenses that don’t allow them to learn the lesson or to feel the safety within the relationship that they need ultimately to come to you. I call it, in my adolescent cases, I always say, you get an amnesty, right? If you’re out at a party and you need your adult to pick you up, you get an amnesty. I think that that really helps people feel like they can utilize their supports in areas where they don’t feel proud of their behavior.

Dr. Sarah (26:03):

Yeah. Yeah. This was really helpful to me. I love this conversation, so thank you.

Dr. Emily (26:12):

You’re liars. That’ll be…

Dr. Sarah (26:13):

I know.

Dr. Emily (26:15):

There’ll be lots more.

Dr. Sarah (26:16):

Oh, yes. Thank you guys. We’ll talk soon. I can’t wait until the next week’s episode with some more questions for you.

Dr. Rebecca (26:26):

Absolutely. It’s always such great conversation.

Dr. Emily (26:28):

Yeah. See you then.

Dr. Sarah (26:30):

Bye.

Dr. Rebecca (26:32):

Bye.

Dr. Emily (26:32):

Bye.

Dr. Sarah (26:34):

Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.