Dr. Sarah (00:02):

Ever wonder what psychologists moms talk about when we get together, whether we’re consulting one another about a challenging case or one of our own kids, or just leaning on each other when parenting feels hard, because trust me, even when we do this for a living, it’s still hard. Joining me each week in these special Thursday shows are two of my closest friends, both moms, both psychologists, they’re the people I call when I need a sounding board. These are our unfiltered answers to your parenting questions. We’re letting you in on the conversations the three of us usually have behind closed doors. This is Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions.

(00:41):

Hello. It’s Beyond the Sessions on the Securely Attached podcast where we answer your questions. I’ve got Dr. Emily Upshur and Dr. Rebecca Hershberg here. So good to see you guys.

Dr. Emily (00:56):

Hi.

Dr. Rebecca (00:56):

It’s great to be here. Hello.

Dr. Sarah (00:58):

So I have a question from a listener and she writes in, hi Dr. Bren, my husband and I religiously listened to your podcast. Thank you. We love to hear that. On this week’s episode of Beyond the Sessions you chatted about navigating different rules when around different people. So for those of you listening, I’ll put a link in the show description of that episode too so you guys can go back to that. Then she says, but you touched upon something that my husband and I have been struggling with for years with our four-year-old, how to regulate a child once they are dysregulated from excitement, there are what feels like millions of pieces of advice on how to regulate win in a tantrum, but our boy genuinely gets overly excited in situations, especially around his cousins and there’s no backing down. We’ve tried getting ahead of the situation, trying to stop the train from falling off the tracks, but there are still specific situations that nothing seems to work. Any words of advice, especially going into the holidays?

Dr. Rebecca (01:57):

Such a good question.

Dr. Sarah (01:59):

Yeah, it’s such a good, I mean I feel like this is, we always talk about dysregulation in the context of negative emotions, but it’s really good feelings can rev us up too.

Dr. Rebecca (02:10):

I wonder if it was the birthday party episode where we talk a lot about when you’ve got 15 four year olds in a room, it’s like dysregulation central even if they’re having the best time of their lives.

Dr. Sarah (02:24):

Yeah. Well we were also talking about, the episode she’s referencing was the one when we were talking about different families have different rules and I think it was a parent that had asked, when my kid gets together with this other kid, they behave in a certain way and it’s tricky. And so I think we did talk a little bit on, ooh, sometimes it’s just really exciting to be around your friends and it could be hard to hit the brakes and that was how to talk to kids about that and I think we could just really hone in on that piece, which is when kids get together with their buddies and they’re kind of sharing that zippy energy and it’s sort of building and building and building, we can see a lot of wheels start to fall off the car.

Dr. Rebecca (03:14):

Yeah, and it doesn’t have to just be with buddies. I mean it can also be your kid is realizing that their birthday is only a week away and they start right before bedtime. They get crazy, crazy energetic and excited and kind of shrieking a little. I mean it depends on the age of the kid, but I don’t think they necessarily have to be around their friends.

Dr. Emily (03:35):

I totally agree. My kids, the doorbell will ring. It doesn’t matter who it is. It could be the UPS deliverer and all of a sudden the energy gets really spicy in my house. Everybody’s like, so I totally empathize with it.

Dr. Sarah (03:48):

That’s funny. It’s like my dogs when the doorbell rings.

Dr. Emily (03:50):

Well, right. I mean I feel like that’s why kids so even or somebody’s just coming to drop someone off for a play date or pick someone up and my kids are literally bouncing off the wall and I think to this person’s question, but behaving in a not regulated, not typical for their, you’re like, what happened? Cousins are coming and now you’re being bonkers. And I think that that’s a really important sort of aberration from normal life that they’re touching upon in this question and I think they’re already working hard. They say that they’ve tried to get ahead of it, which I think is always a great strategy. There’s one, can we pre-teach cope ahead, talk a little bit about it, but my other suggestion is also to lean into it so everybody’s really excited. Can we be really excited for a few minutes and then try to down regulate? I think trying to fight it from the start can be a little tough.

Dr. Rebecca (04:55):

Right. Let’s have a dance part. You’re so excited your birthday is coming up in a week. Let’s put on a great song and dance it out. Is that what you’re talking about?

Dr. Emily (05:01):

Yeah. Or I think of this especially this person also was asking in terms of having, it sounds like hosting, having people come over and then you’re like, oh my god, the kids are running around maniac. What’s happening right now? Loss of control feeling. And I do wonder if you can sort of lean into it, but maybe that has a little bit of plan ahead of like, okay, we’re going to throw you guys all outside in the trampoline for a few minutes or we’re going to do a dance party or sort of lean into that dysregulation that then allows for the come down to be more planful, I guess.

Dr. Sarah (05:36):

Right. It’s also like a release. You can let them have kind of a big explosive release altogether like a trampoline or a dance party and then that’s also a discreet thing and so then you transition out of it. So okay, the trampoline time is done and that was really fun. And now I think co-regulation is also something to really think about here for these transitional things. If you’re doing a dance party, can we make the last song of the dance party a little bit slower or a freeze dance or something that’s going to introduce a little bit of a pause for them. And then when I do dance parties with my kids, I do them before bed, which is a little taboo. They get real riled up right before bed, but it’s one of our favorite things to do at night, but the last song we always play and they now have a little ritual where they pull all the pillows off my bed and lay on the floor and they turn out the lights and I play the song from Frozen two that Elsa’s mom sang to her.

(06:41):

It’s like this pretty lullaby song and I will play that at the end of our dance parties and they chill out a bit and then we transition to bed and that happened organically just because we kind of just happened. But that idea of, okay, one, I’m going to give you this sort of contained sort of semi-structured space to lose it to go bonkers and then I’m going to find a way to dial that back down when it’s over and then transition out. And I’d also think in terms of some of this is easier said than done, but could you then orient them to something again that’s a bit more semi-structured and contained, like, okay, now we’re going to do coloring books or something that gives them a place to focus on again, to keep that sort of anchoring them down in that sort of excitement, channeling it on something more specific. That’s not going to work for all kids at all, but it’s something to play with.

Dr. Rebecca (07:47):

Yeah, I agree with all of that, with everything so far. The only thing I would add I think is that because looking at her question or she’s saying with the cousins, this always happens with the kids’ cousin, but I mean yes, check and I think there’s a way to do everything you’re saying but also plan the dysregulation. Maybe this is what she means by getting ahead of it, but it’s going to happen at some point and so why not start with it? Why not sort of you as the grownups be the ones to say, okay, we’re going to get there and the first thing we’re going to do is I’ll have a pillow fight or something so that you can kind of try to plan so that it doesn’t happen let’s say right before bed or it doesn’t get totally out of control at the time that you’re excited to sit down with your sibling or in-laws and have some wine and cheese and that’s when they get all crazy riled up and one of you has to get up and it ends up being a disciplinary thing.

(08:47):

It’s like if you’re spending the day with the kids and their cousins, they’re going to get dysregulated and so you can’t necessarily prevent that per se, nor would you want to. I mean it’s honestly kind of adorable and nice, but it can be perhaps on your schedule more than theirs. You can put things in place not just to keep them calm and regulated, but to sort of say, okay, it’s nice out right now, it’s light out outside. Let’s go outside and do the trampoline now, even if they’re in a calm moment, you don’t have to wait for them to get crazy, I guess is what I’m saying, 25 different ways over the course of 10 minutes.

Dr. Sarah (09:31):

Yeah, I love that too and makes me think about, okay, when I get together with my sister and my kids are with the cousins, it is insanity so fast and I have learned that I have kind of two choices I can or a hybrid of the two, but realistically these are kind of the things I grapple with. One is I can chill with my sister and my brother-in-law and my husband and do our grownup time and know it’s going to get ridiculous at some point and the wheels will fall off and I just am like, that’s a price I’m willing to pay for some wine with my family and just like to chill or I can separate from the grownups and be a bit of a co-regulating containing presence for the kids. Now obviously I can hybrid that I can come in and out and in and out and in and out or tag team with my husband or the grownups can sort of have an agreement.

(10:41):

We’re all going to do that and sort of regularly check in and just keep the low pressure atmosphere, keep it chill. If it’s starting to rise up, we are going to help it sink back down. That can feel really futile and frustrating though if all you want to do is hang out with your adult friends, so it’s like a tradeoff and I also just want to give parents permission to phone it in, but also it’s like the trade off I guess is I am willing to give myself permission to phone in it a little bit and I understand that means that it can get out of control for the kids and it’s like are we all okay with that? Do I have kids that can handle that or cannot handle that? Some kids getting too out of control even with excitement can lead to someone getting hurt or things getting broken or just harm. That’s like we actually cannot allow that. They need us to be those bumpers for them and they really cannot handle us not supervising them. I also have the youngest of that cohort of the cousins and my kids is four and a half and the four and a half year old will come in and out with the grownups, but then it’s my daughter who’s five, so we’re not talking about really little kids or toddlers who need a whole lot more support in this area and can’t just be left to run around with zero parental.

Dr. Emily (12:26):

Yeah, I think you are talking about, like, ertainly the ages are really important, but I think you’re just talking about do we want to be structured or unstructured? Those are like, do I want to be teacher mom right now and set up a craft and go and really regulate it by giving it some boundaries, like a task that’s discreet and starts and finishes. Do I want to phone it in and not do that at all and let chaos reek and sort of accept the fallout? I think that’s what I hear you saying. If there’s a fallout, accept that fallout. I think either path is okay and I think maybe the question is asking how do I go into this with the right mindset and I think managing expectations and going in and saying, okay, it’s going to be crazy. It sounds like a situation like this might be cousins, which is maybe not as often.

(13:22):

I’m not sure I’m speculating here, but maybe it’s a little bit novel. It’s not your everyday play date. It’s like all your cousins are coming over and I think then you choose between these two choices that we’re sort of illustrating. You either go a little unstructured and as much and sort of let that happen and sort of accept, and I think this is really important, accept that it might fall apart, which means you might have to step in and that type or there might be a mess that’s more likely or do something a little bit more co-regulate, which might mean more structured or more presence, your own presence as a parent physical presence and emotional presence as a parent or setting them up. That’s a thing I like to do is doing a little front loading, setting my kids up with something to regulate them and then sort of doing the phone in trickle away, trickle out type of thing. But I think you just have to kind of decide and go with that whatever path you go down and give yourself a little grace. It’s okay. Either one of these options.

Dr. Sarah (14:33):

Right. And also…

Dr. Rebecca (14:35):

You need to know you’re kid. Sorry.

Dr. Sarah (14:36):

I was just going to say you have to know your kid. That was hundred percent the words.

Dr. Rebecca (14:39):

Okay, Brent mind melt. I mean you have to know your kids. I have one kid, so my nephews are old. I mean they’re, what are they? I’m like, who are they eight? I think they’re nine and I don’t know, 13 or something. My 8-year-old gets crazy dysregulated when he sees them. He’s so excited they’re not dysregulated. It’s like, okay, you know what I mean? And so it’s like I love that. I don’t think it’s always all or nothing. Sometimes one kid is overstimulated out of his mind and running around going bananas and it’s actually disruptive not only to parents but to the other kids and so again, we don’t have to talk about it in detail, but I think knowing your kid and setting up a particular kid, let’s say for success in some way or another, or removing your kid again in a kind way but in a like, whoa, whoa, whoa, bud, let’s go outside and take a couple deep breaths. We are really excited to be here and that’s awesome, but it’s read the room. I think there’s nuance in there too.

Dr. Emily (15:44):

That’s a great point, Rebecca. I think that that’s probably where this question is coming from, at least from my experience. It’s like when you have the kid who is bouncing off the wall and everybody else is kind of okay, they’re going with the book, so I think one of the other only other tasky things I’ll do again, cope ahead. I love that they’re trying to plan ahead, say, manage the, try to set a stage, illustrate a picture for your child. This is what it might look like. This is what it might feel like If you get really excited, this is what you might be able to do. My only other little tricky concrete tip is I also think giving a role or a job helps with these types of things. I’m like, great, you put away all the coats, right? A little bit of a sensor, a little bit of a heavy work yoga job. Yeah, heavyweight.

Dr. Sarah (16:36):

Especilly for a 4-year-old. I mean for a 4-year-old that is, that’s great way to channel some of that buzzy energy.

Dr. Emily (16:44):

So sort of giving it a capacity that is helpful and containing also has, so what we circle back to the beginning has a discrete beginning and end and might help with that transition stage of that excitement.

Dr. Sarah (16:59):

One other thing just to piggyback on that in terms of a concrete strategy is what I’ll sometimes refer to as pro-regulation, so it’s like I’m not going to wait until my kid is actually full on 10 out of 10 zooming around the house to step in and regulate, not even a seven out of 10 when it’s like I’m just going to set a timer on my phone to go off every 15 minutes and I’m just going to go connect with them even if it’s just I want eyes on them, but I’m going to just tweak their nervous system a little bit. I’m going to distract them a little. I’m going to pull. It’s almost like, because I think what happens too with kids that get super dysregulated excited is do they get of sucked in a little bit of a vortex with the fun things that are happening?

(17:54):

And so it’s almost like, if I can break that spell a little bit, kind of like how when kids are watching tv, they’re zoomed in and they’re gone and it’s like if you interrupted that every 15 minutes, if you did interrupted a TV show every 15 minutes, they would going to get really irritated with you, but you can do it so much more subtly with play if they’re playing and having fun. You can wait for a quick little moment where you can catch eyes and then you just come in and make a contact with them and what that does to their nervous system until the train that social play connections driving and building on is it’s almost like hits the brakes for a second. It just slows the momentum of that speed that’s building. So kind of just doing a quick before they’ve gone too far, just sort of regulating them with your kind of just pulling them out and pulling them back into your energetic level for a moment. And it could just be like you walk in the room, you come up, you give ’em a high five and you leave, but you’re doing that sort of pro-regulation maintenance for them so that they’re never going too far high up before you’ve come in and done a reset.

Dr. Emily (19:15):

I agree. Yeah. I call that the death stare. No, I’m joking.

Dr. Sarah (19:20):

But you only have to do the death stare if they’re already out of control.

Dr. Emily (19:23):

I’m joking. I do think though, that if you just pop it, your physical presence, if you’ve coped ahead a little like, oh, you’re going to get really excited. Let’s try to read the room and if you pop in, they’re like, oh, right. Got to, you’re like a reminder, right? Even just seeing you.

Dr. Sarah (19:44):

Yeah. It’s like you’re queuing up that part of their conscious awareness by your presence like, oh, that’s right. We talked about that. You don’t even have to say anything.

Dr. Emily (19:51):

Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Sarah (19:54):

Awesome. Well, I hope this is helpful for everyone going into the holidays where these zoomies are going to hit us all at these parties and maybe try some of these strategies. Let us know what works. Let us know if you have any other creative things that you tried. You can always DM us at Dr. Sarah brand on Instagram, or you can write us in Instagram or on our website, dr sarah brand.com/podcast to submit a question of your own and we will answer it on our Thursday Beyond the Sessions. Happy holidays everybody.

Dr. Emily (20:26):

Happy holidays.

Dr. Rebecca (20:26):

Thank you. Happy Holidays.

Dr. Sarah (20:30):Thank you so much for listening. As you can hear, parenting is not one size fits all. It’s nuanced and it’s complicated. So I really hope that this series where we’re answering your questions really helps you to cut through some of the noise and find out what works best for you and your unique child. If you have a burning parenting question, something you’re struggling to navigate or a topic you really want us to shed light on or share research about, we want to know, go to drsarahbren.com/question to send in anything that you want, Rebecca, Emily, and me to answer in Securely Attached: Beyond the Sessions. That’s drsarahbren.com/question. And check back for a brand new securely attached next Tuesday. And until then, don’t be a stranger.